Why keep Windows?

Message

neighbor · #1 Post by **neighbor** » Sun 04 Nov 2007, 21:07

As initiated in this post: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=22980 ,
I've made the switch to Puppy 2.17 and it does everything that I'd need for this particular computer. In fact it does more as I'd resigned it to never getting online again, the way Windows was clogged up - but with Puppy, I'm online and typing this from the very machine that seemed destined for the thrift store.

Several kind souls replied to my query, advising that I run Puppy from CD and keep everything pretty much as-was so I wouldn't be disappointed...

But now, I'm more than willing to pull XP out, to un-partition the hard drive (a currently weird setup with C nearly full and D nearly empty). I've already deleted/moved all the files that were there. It's really ready to be a blank slate.

What's the general thought about things like this? Any exultations or regrets?

The only thing I'd really need to save would be the pup_save. file as I accidently saved it HD rather than CD...

Thanks!

mcewanw · #2 Post by **mcewanw** » Sun 04 Nov 2007, 22:05

@neighbour asked: "Why keep Windows?"

Because by regularly paying for Windows upgrades you are helping to indirectly 'save the world' via "the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation"(?).

At the very least, however, the negative of the above is that in order to keep things "working" via that endless cycle of upgrades, you need to cumulatively contribute to the destruction of "planet home" via consumerism-gone-mad (i.e. upgrading msoft windows: so need more ram, larger harddisk, faster processor... a new machine in fact!).

I'm also finding that puppy linux, incredibly, is a complete replacement for windows, and more than that (for my requirements at least). Suddenly my machines are fast and nimble again with TONS of free harddisk space! Great - like a good spring clean out!

mcewanw · #3 Post by **mcewanw** » Sun 04 Nov 2007, 22:27

Personally, I "pray" that linux or indeed any gpl style of open source OS becomes the operating system of choice in our children's schools, and in our children's children's schools.

Keep it all simple and efficient; as commented on another thread:
( http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 549#150549 )

"The availability of increased resources clearly just makes us more stupid; look at how huge even many simple computer programs have become..."

neighbor · #4 Post by **neighbor** » Mon 05 Nov 2007, 23:19

mcewanw: greatreasons, as far as I can tell, to ditch MS! I know, not doing my part to bolster the economy if I do that, but oh well.

It was just interesting that several folks heartily suggested I not dump windows at first - probably more out of caution than true need for windows, yes?

Billwho? · #5 Post by **Billwho?** » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 02:54

neighbor wrote:It was just interesting that several folks heartily suggested I not dump windows at first - probably more out of caution than true need for windows, yes?

For the most part, yes plus as a back up in case at some later date you run across an application or piece of hardware you need to use quickly but are unable to get operational in Linux. eg I unfortunately can't use my scanner as a fax at the moment due to modem problems.
And then of course there is good old nostalgia.

PaulBx1 · #6 Post by **PaulBx1** » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 03:32

I have a Win98 installation with a few programs that haven't been ported over, e.g. a ballistics program, one for a data logger, etc. I could try them in Wine I suppose, but I use them so rarely it simply is not time-efficient to mess with that. Easier to boot Win98 and use them when I have to. If you have no applications like that, and all your devices work in Puppy, then hey, why not clean it out? Heck, take out your hard disk too and run from flash!

trapster · #7 Post by **trapster** » Tue 06 Nov 2007, 12:09

I tried this little CLI ballistic program a while ago and it seemed a little too deep for me, though it worked fine.

http://freshmeat.net/projects/ballistic/

neighbor · #8 Post by **neighbor** » Wed 07 Nov 2007, 23:12

ah, the other xp machine, non puppified at this point, is currently installing a load of windows security fixes... sigh...

perhaps I can see two reasons to keep one machine with windows - my scanner (have yet to see if I can get it to work with Puppy, not to mention that the spouse likes to use Photoshop... plus the digital camera...

But I'd never expected that the VAIO would be up to those tasks, so I think I'm ok to wipe windows out (mwahahaha)

Can anybody point the way for removing an operating system? That's something I've never done before... it feels... scary and revolutionary at the same time

Will removing Windows de-partition the hard drive or is that something I'll need to deo separately?

Thanks much!

sketchman · #9 Post by **sketchman** » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 00:12

First, what's your setup and linux experience?
How many partitions do you have, and can you use fdisk?
I'm by no means an expert, but I know how to do what you are talking about. Please post a little more info, so I don't insult your intelligence, though.

jonyo · #10 Post by **jonyo** » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 00:36

I'd keep win & make the decision to dump it down the road. However, if intent to dump it, have a look at gparted in pup.

In 2.15 > start (could be menu) > system > gparted partition manager.

mcewanw · #11 Post by **mcewanw** » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 04:05

neighbor wrote: Can anybody point the way for removing an operating system? That's something I've never done before... it feels... scary and revolutionary at the same time

Will removing Windows de-partition the hard drive or is that something I'll need to deo separately?

Yes, there is something refreshing about wiping a hard drive or any of its partitions.

As long as you don't want your Windows back again there is no danger though; since you are wiping the disk anyway, it doesn't matter if thing don't work out quite as you planned on the first attempt, you can just keep experimenting until you get it right!

The main problem becomes really one of too much choice. "You" have to decide how you want to partition your disk, and what formats you want to use for the filesystems on each partition. e.g. ext3, ext2, Reiser, FAT32 (i.e. vfat), NTFS or what?. Different people will have different opinions as to what is best or most appropriate.

Personally, on my old laptops, which all have less than 10 GByte hard drives, I tend to use two or perhaps three partitions in total. For example, on this old Armada 110 (256 MByte RAM) Puppy 2.17 machine, I have the following scheme (roughly):

Primary Partition 1 (/dev/hda1): size:2 Gbytes; Type:FAT32

I save my puppy files onto here, in a frugal install, and personally, I boot using grub4dos with its boot loader (grldr) installed to the Master Boot Record.

Some would say that 2 GBytes is too small, but I only use a pup_save file of 512 MBytes and a swap file of 100 Mbytes and so it's plenty for me.

However, if you are not interested in using DOS or Windows of any type in the future at all, it makes more sense to use a Linux native filesystem format such as ext2 or ext3. It is also maybe worth using a small separate swap partition (though, with a frugal install, everything on my system runs from ram anyway; my small swap file is rarely if ever used by the system...!)

I split up the rest of the disk in whatever way suits me. In practice I tend to use three partitions altogether. The first one for the main operating system itself. The second one for all the junk I download and might want to install later or burn to DVD or CD. The third one maybe for saving big files, such as when recording video or whatever. But all these decisions are up to you.

Summary: Don't waste a lot of space with an unnecessarily large swap area. Consider what maximum storage space sizes you require for the type of data you tend to produce/use. Experiment... the choice is ultimately yours. Puppy gives you power over your machine!!! A wiped machine, is a machine without viruses, or trojans; it runs fast and you can easily wipe and reinstall anytime you like (especially with a frugal install and when you have made a backup of your pup_save file with your personal configuration info on it - i.e. network setup and so on)!

I tend to use fdisk and mkfs.ext2 (or mkfs.vfat, or whatever) but that's because I'm long used to commandline Linux/UNIX. jonyo's suggestion of using GParted Partition Manager is probably a more sensible way to go.

Sage · #12 Post by **Sage** » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 07:08

In previous threads, there has been a persuasive case to keep one machine running W98 despite its appalling shortcomings. Most of those are known and fixable to a certain extent. Everything you need for it is available free on the Net and the base system can be loaded in <200Mb. You can then dispose of dozens of files manually and Alexa! After this, there's always IE removal SW (eg 98lite - an Oz company, so you know it's good!) that speeds things along significantly. Since all major HW manufacturers have had some level of errrr 'interaction' with Beelzebub, it's fairly certain that drivers can be had for just about anything. Only hardened fiddlers might wish to follow such a path, but, in contradistinction, there is no rational reason to make the same case for XP & Vista which should be wiped at every opportunity. Only masochists persist.

Afterthought: There's also Nano98 and Mindows, of course...

caomhim · #13 Post by **caomhim** » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 07:39

As a newbie to puppy I am astonished at just how good it is. As we speak I am writing this from a resurrected HP Armada E500 notebook.Initially I used the live CD to get familiar with puppylinux. and to evaluate it as a possible replacement on aforementioned laptop. However I can now report that the HD was dispensed with (as it was past its sell by date) in favour of a flash card on an cf to ide adapter. The frugal install was a breeze. Suddenly this laptop has a new lease of life. Currently getting the rest of the family familiar with puppy with a view to wiping Windows from all machines in the house. Most of the application we would need or use have a puppy version or workaround. I haven't had a need to use any Windows apps yet. I guess I will cross that bridge when I come to it. Based on the last few weeks - I have to say that Puppylinux kicks ass and is due to become legendary.

KF6SNJ · #14 Post by **KF6SNJ** » Thu 08 Nov 2007, 07:50

My first step into Linux was in 2002 with a Red Hat 6 disk from the local library. Probably should not have committed to the install, which wiped out six weeks worth of work on a paper on Ecclessiastes. Oh well. Since then, I have had no practical reason to use windows for anything, except a paper weight (though I have a broken hard drive that does the same trick too and it may still have windows on it - wow, old drive).

I started using Puppy back around either 0.7 or 0.8 and now I am hooked. Things I used to do with Red Hat I now can do on Puppy and without the headaches. Puppy rocks.

A daleks opinion of Windows :"EXTERMINATE"

neighbor · #15 Post by **neighbor** » Fri 09 Nov 2007, 15:13

sketchman wrote:First, what's your setup and linux experience?
How many partitions do you have, and can you use fdisk?
I'm by no means an expert, but I know how to do what you are talking about. Please post a little more info, so I don't insult your intelligence, though.

sketchman, you can assume the worst and it won't insult my intelligence

honestly, I have no "deep" computer experience at all. no setup, no linux. apparently I only have unbridled enthusiasm!

It's good to receive cautionary replies - I want to know what the likely results would be if I took out Windows... and I hadn't considered that somewhere down the line, somebody might want to use Windows...

plus it's obviously more complicated than saying, with a wave of the magic wand, "I want a new, squeaky clean machine." THat's probably to keep idiots like me from messing everything up.

ok, off to read other posts and answer (and come up with) more questions...

Bruce B · #16 Post by **Bruce B** » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 07:03

Sometimes I do work for people and feel the need to put things back exactly as they were when I received the computer.

In these cases I take some important notes about the disk and make a backup set, so I can put things back.

Even big decisions like removing a major os doesn't need to be a permanent decision.

jonyo · #17 Post by **jonyo** » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 10:18

http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-425601.html

http://www.linuxhaxor.net/2007/08/13/50 ... p-windows/

http://digg.com/linux_unix/50_Reasons_to_Dump_Windows

Bruce B · #18 Post by **Bruce B** » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 12:03

Jonyo,

Normally I run Windows at fullscreen. For the purpose of this photo's display, I ran it windowed 800x600 then shrunk the 1024x768 full view for better forum display.

One of the reasons people don't want to leave Windows is there is a favorite app or two they don't want to do without.

Actually, most cases you can take your fine legacy Windows 98SE to Puppy and run your favorite apps in Windows in Puppy.

As you can see my favorite is photoshop. Hope you and others enjoy the screen pic.

So I guess when one factors that you can perfectly take your favorite apps to Puppy, there is less reason to feel stuck with Windows, because you can still have Windows and your favorite apps.

Excepting serious gamers, whom I never mess with persuading them to a full Linux conversion.

Bruce

mcewanw · #19 Post by **mcewanw** » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 12:17

Bruce B wrote:. . . I take some important notes about the disk and make a backup set, so I can put things back.

Even big decisions like removing a major os doesn't need to be a permanent decision.

Yes, when not overly inconvenient to do so, I tend to make a backup of any system I replace. I usually store the backup onto a network server or, depending on the backup size, onto a cd, set of cds or a dvd. If the backup is small enough, I also sometimes keep a further backup copy in a separate partition on the working computer. As long as the disk itself doesn't fail, that arrangements makes reinstallations almost trivial to perform.

Unfortunatately, XP installations can be quite large (and Vista moreso), and backups painful and sometimes less than easy to perform. W98 installations (including any installed applications), on the other hand, can often simply be tar'd up (from say Puppy Linux running in RAM), and can usually be easily stored on a single CD in that form (or additionally gzipped if necessary). Same applies to Win2k, especially if using it with a FAT32 partition.

I do still have one old laptop running W2k, because my partner needs it for a particular application. It tends to break down after a while of course, regularly crashing or going slow or whatever, but then I just fire up Puppy Linux from CD and untar the preconfigured but "clean" W2k backup in a few minutes; the whole process is just as easy as reinstalling Puppy itself when handled in that way (though occasionally I have to restore the mbr and/or boot record too). Having said that, most of my other window's backups are tending to stay as backups; I have them in case I need them, but I find that I don't need them...

I use the Linux dd utility to make backups of mbr's (with and without partition tables) and any relevant boot sectors; no other tools are required for that.

mdisaster2 · #20 Post by **mdisaster2** » Mon 12 Nov 2007, 13:48

I have to keep dual booting WinXP, mostly because I need to test my code on the same platform my customers use (good thing they didn't switch to Vista yet!). With hindsight I suppose I could just have installed WinXP into a virtual machine, but migrating my current installation would too much of a hassle.

Apart from that, I am that near to trash Windows and just use Linux (or possibly PC-BSD) for all my needs. I don't play that many games nowadays, and both Puppy and Slackware seem to work with most of my hardware (Puppy thinks that the IR adapter is a serial modem and I didn't test the the webcam yet - not a big deal anyway). To be fair there are a few Windows programs that I like better than their Linux counterpart (Nero, Photoshop Elements, Foobar2000, Irfanview), but it's not like I can't survive without them. Too bad for the games though.

All the legacy Win98 machines I have lying around the house have now been retrofitted with Puppy and run like greased lightning (I had to open one up for a friend who just wouldn't believe that a AMD400 could be that fast

). Maybe WinXP will go the same way once I get over the money it costed me in first place

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Why keep Windows?

Why keep Windows?

save the world

good luck to OLPC and similar open-source-only initiatives

Why would you want to keep Windows