Sounds to me like your suggesting that I stole your Compaq Armada, or at least claiming ownership of mine! As far as I honestly recall, I used to have two of them but one has mysteriously disappeared.Sage wrote: My Compaq Armada might be same one as yours? At least, it might've started out that way.
It's NOT Puppy, but....
It's refreshing to know I'm not the only one around here that pines for the anti-static sleeve days: when 640K of DIP mobo RAM chips was sufficient to have a variety of apps at-the-ready (TSR anyone?) for virtually all one's computing endeavors. mcewanw nailed it with this:
"The availability of increased resources clearly just makes us more stupid; look at how huge even many simple computer programs have become..."
"The availability of increased resources clearly just makes us more stupid; look at how huge even many simple computer programs have become..."
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[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
Plethora of extremely badly written 'doze apps. that fail to release memory back to the pool, thus qualifying for 'stay resident' status! Hardly surprising, though - what price good third party SW when the proprietor refuses to release API s. Frankly, not enough effort has been expended by talented but poverty-stricken (essential requirement to avoid litigation) students to reverse engineer 'doze and publish it prominently on the Web. That would give competent programmers the opportunity to put everything right - perhaps?!
On second thoughts, talented coders would be smart enough to work on worthwhile projects.
On second thoughts, talented coders would be smart enough to work on worthwhile projects.
Quick programming versus efficient running programs
I blame "modern" highly-abstracted programming languages with their object-orientation, event-driven GUI widget interfaces. Nice and easy (relatively) and fast to write complex GUI applications with these but with a heavy price in spiralling bloat. Of course I wouldn't recommend directly programming in machine code (!). There is a place for Assembly Language, however, even though it increases the problem of portability. There are such things as cross-assemblers and cross-compilers that reduce the portability problem to some extent though.
But what about C? As "highish-level" languages go, C is famous for its capability to produce compiled code which is relatively low on resource usage and relatively high in functional speed. Of course, an unwieldly GUI library of widgets, even if written in C, can take everything back to slow-crawl bloat all over again... sigh.
The point is, programmers are not being trained to write efficient programs. Instead they are being trained to use highly bloated general purpose libraries, even when they only require a tiny part of the functionality of the multi-purpose blackbox of memory eating code they are calling. Given enough TIME a suitably skilled Assembly Language programmer could write an incredibly efficient GUI-based program; tiny and fast. OK, so it might take millions of human-programming-hours to create the likes of a fully featured office suite in Assembly Language, but it could be done. It could easily be done, with much less effort in C or in a mixture of C and Assembly, where by C, I mean C without the add-ons, just the standard libraries and not the bloated extras... But... how many "programmers" can even program efficiently in C like alone in Assembler nowadays; some, but not enough.
In many ways, such programming is a dying art because the bulk of the millions of university graduates studying computer programming are too busy learning the ever-expanding libraries of classes and widgets and other blackbox "objects" of the expanding bubble of competing alternative bloated programming "languages" that replicate continuously and fight for a commercial foothold in the software creating enterprise. Even Puppy Linux struggles to decide which set of that plethora of alternatives (and support libraries) to include in its distribution.
Okay, so Assembly Language and even raw C is a bit "too hard", maybe, to create a good GUI desktop in a reasonable time frame. Well... not really, I say. It could be done, surely. A SMALL, fast, unbloated GUI widget library of ASM and/or C routines "could" be built. If everyone then stuck to using that, and stopped using KDE libraries, or QT libraries, or GTK libraries and so on, you could end up with fast, fully-functional systems, using very low resources (compared to the present junk). And so much time would be saved, because the programmers for that simple GUI widget system wouldn't have to put in the huge effort trying to learn all that other excess baggage. Why, they might even become skilled at using C and assembly language again, and then the systems would be created even faster!
But what about C? As "highish-level" languages go, C is famous for its capability to produce compiled code which is relatively low on resource usage and relatively high in functional speed. Of course, an unwieldly GUI library of widgets, even if written in C, can take everything back to slow-crawl bloat all over again... sigh.
The point is, programmers are not being trained to write efficient programs. Instead they are being trained to use highly bloated general purpose libraries, even when they only require a tiny part of the functionality of the multi-purpose blackbox of memory eating code they are calling. Given enough TIME a suitably skilled Assembly Language programmer could write an incredibly efficient GUI-based program; tiny and fast. OK, so it might take millions of human-programming-hours to create the likes of a fully featured office suite in Assembly Language, but it could be done. It could easily be done, with much less effort in C or in a mixture of C and Assembly, where by C, I mean C without the add-ons, just the standard libraries and not the bloated extras... But... how many "programmers" can even program efficiently in C like alone in Assembler nowadays; some, but not enough.
In many ways, such programming is a dying art because the bulk of the millions of university graduates studying computer programming are too busy learning the ever-expanding libraries of classes and widgets and other blackbox "objects" of the expanding bubble of competing alternative bloated programming "languages" that replicate continuously and fight for a commercial foothold in the software creating enterprise. Even Puppy Linux struggles to decide which set of that plethora of alternatives (and support libraries) to include in its distribution.
Okay, so Assembly Language and even raw C is a bit "too hard", maybe, to create a good GUI desktop in a reasonable time frame. Well... not really, I say. It could be done, surely. A SMALL, fast, unbloated GUI widget library of ASM and/or C routines "could" be built. If everyone then stuck to using that, and stopped using KDE libraries, or QT libraries, or GTK libraries and so on, you could end up with fast, fully-functional systems, using very low resources (compared to the present junk). And so much time would be saved, because the programmers for that simple GUI widget system wouldn't have to put in the huge effort trying to learn all that other excess baggage. Why, they might even become skilled at using C and assembly language again, and then the systems would be created even faster!
I have heard that they do not like
naive guys like me to post superbasic questions.
Not that I think you guys like it
either but you are friendly about it.
I am testing antix version of simply mepis just now. their browser and overall layout is kind of farout.
That guy has a different view on how to do things.
Works fast though in the vbox virtual set up. set up the ethernet without me having to do anything.
But the browser is very alien.
Like Lynks for msdos if you remember. ok better but similar
naive guys like me to post superbasic questions.
Not that I think you guys like it
either but you are friendly about it.
I am testing antix version of simply mepis just now. their browser and overall layout is kind of farout.
That guy has a different view on how to do things.
Works fast though in the vbox virtual set up. set up the ethernet without me having to do anything.
But the browser is very alien.
Like Lynks for msdos if you remember. ok better but similar
-
Colonel Panic
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: Sat 16 Sep 2006, 11:09
Kolibri - apparently they still do things properly in the Russian Federation! Maybe that's why reliable old Soyuz comes to the rescue of fly-by-night pretenders when their elastic breaks?a suitably skilled Assembly Language programmer could write an incredibly efficient GUI-based program; tiny and fast.
Back in 8-bit days, every kid had the assembler manual alongside their 'pong' - it was normal. Even the PC1 pair of manuals contained a lot of assembler - some of it was written by a colleague of mine.
Another professional colleague enjoyed a good day in the lab. programming his PDP8e directly, ie in machine code, by pressing the switches up & down to engage the 0 and 1 bits in turn.
All the fun and challenge of making complex measurements and calculations with a 1K memory bank has been taken away from us.
Soyuz is not without fault:Sage wrote:Kolibri - apparently they still do things properly in the Russian Federation! Maybe that's why reliable old Soyuz comes to the rescue of fly-by-night pretenders when their elastic breaks?
Astronauts handling explosives on daring spacewalk
[size=84][i]hangout:[/i] ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
If you read the article, you'd know it doesn't operate "perfectly." ffs
Last edited by alienjeff on Tue 15 Jul 2008, 06:03, edited 1 time in total.
[size=84][i]hangout:[/i] ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
Everybody ??? talk about DSL how good it is but I failed
to make it get out on the internet.
Puppy needed me to first go to Setup in Menu then
chose network wizard and then hit search for and then dhcp and then accept and it all worked.
Now I am writing for the first time from Wolvix 1.1 cup.
That one figured out on its own how to go to internet.
But it is a much bigger distro than Puppy 4.00
I gave it the wrong cheatcode. I have to use magnifier to read what I write.
I have not tested to change kbd yet and not tested sound either. Maybe I tell result today or tomorrow.
almost 2 AM here and my eyes are hurting.
I get delayed when testing vector linux distro cause that one showed the user name and password too short time for my poor brain to get it.
now off to youtube and then to test realmedia files.
and jpg viewers too
to make it get out on the internet.
Puppy needed me to first go to Setup in Menu then
chose network wizard and then hit search for and then dhcp and then accept and it all worked.
Now I am writing for the first time from Wolvix 1.1 cup.
That one figured out on its own how to go to internet.
But it is a much bigger distro than Puppy 4.00
I gave it the wrong cheatcode. I have to use magnifier to read what I write.
I have not tested to change kbd yet and not tested sound either. Maybe I tell result today or tomorrow.
almost 2 AM here and my eyes are hurting.
I get delayed when testing vector linux distro cause that one showed the user name and password too short time for my poor brain to get it.
now off to youtube and then to test realmedia files.
and jpg viewers too
Last edited by nooby on Tue 15 Jul 2008, 08:15, edited 1 time in total.
Unlike AJ to miss my little jape? [NASA elastic = wind up ?!]
Wolvix and Vector are two distros that I like, especially Vector 64bit. Wolvix may be dying on its claws, though, as Wolven & Oethen don't have the time, and possibly the same fire, to undertake the necessary upgrades? Their Forum still operates - just.
Vector attracts the ire of some due to alleged non-compliance with licensing & co. Some folks have also suffered a level of sharpness and other adverse treatment on their Forum, apparently?
In general, one should try to avoid American and German distros because they have repressive Laws on copyright. Notwithstanding, there are mavericks and enlightened developers in both those countries. MEPIS was the one that always skated on the thinnest of ice, but our own MU has managed to 'make arrangements' for foreigners. Sidux has a neat way of adding in non-free codecs with 'smxi'. Even the major distros have work-arounds. Soon, the Americans can look forward to a new administration but Mrs M. seems to have her feet well under the table. We have to worry about some ignorant pen-pushers in the Commission, too; unlikely that some of them haven't been 'approached' to become richer by the crooks from the industry. Vigilance, vigilance.
Wolvix, like Opera, is Norwegian - we like Norway.
Wolvix and Vector are two distros that I like, especially Vector 64bit. Wolvix may be dying on its claws, though, as Wolven & Oethen don't have the time, and possibly the same fire, to undertake the necessary upgrades? Their Forum still operates - just.
Vector attracts the ire of some due to alleged non-compliance with licensing & co. Some folks have also suffered a level of sharpness and other adverse treatment on their Forum, apparently?
In general, one should try to avoid American and German distros because they have repressive Laws on copyright. Notwithstanding, there are mavericks and enlightened developers in both those countries. MEPIS was the one that always skated on the thinnest of ice, but our own MU has managed to 'make arrangements' for foreigners. Sidux has a neat way of adding in non-free codecs with 'smxi'. Even the major distros have work-arounds. Soon, the Americans can look forward to a new administration but Mrs M. seems to have her feet well under the table. We have to worry about some ignorant pen-pushers in the Commission, too; unlikely that some of them haven't been 'approached' to become richer by the crooks from the industry. Vigilance, vigilance.
Wolvix, like Opera, is Norwegian - we like Norway.
afaik the codecs are not a problem in germany.
For example the polish distro "Aurox" could be distributed without trouble in german with a german magazine.
It included all relevant codecs and KDE-patches.
Just the big distros do not include them, as they fear, there might be issues, as they deliver in the states, too.
In fact, there is no more huge "german" (as owner, concerning laws) distro (except slackware).
Suse was bought by Novell...
More problematic is the violence issue.
We have a rating agency from the state, that puts violent content to an index-list.
You can get in real trouble, if you advertise such products like Doom, or even worse, distribute them to people younger than 18.
Doom 1 in addition was forbidden, as one level contains a swastika (Hakenkreuz). These symbols can bring you to jail, because they are strictly forbidden. For this reason also "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" had different textures in the german version.
For this reason, "hurt me plenty" is released in english only.
It even is problematic, that I host quake/doom on my german server, but as it is just an addon not advertised on a german page, that might be ok. "grey-zone".
My next game-CD will be german, too.
On muppy-linux.de we will just announce the non violent SFS-files.
On the english page, you also will find doom/quake then, as that page adresses non-germans.
I think, that should be ok concerning our laws.
Mark
For example the polish distro "Aurox" could be distributed without trouble in german with a german magazine.
It included all relevant codecs and KDE-patches.
Just the big distros do not include them, as they fear, there might be issues, as they deliver in the states, too.
In fact, there is no more huge "german" (as owner, concerning laws) distro (except slackware).
Suse was bought by Novell...
More problematic is the violence issue.
We have a rating agency from the state, that puts violent content to an index-list.
You can get in real trouble, if you advertise such products like Doom, or even worse, distribute them to people younger than 18.
Doom 1 in addition was forbidden, as one level contains a swastika (Hakenkreuz). These symbols can bring you to jail, because they are strictly forbidden. For this reason also "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" had different textures in the german version.
For this reason, "hurt me plenty" is released in english only.
It even is problematic, that I host quake/doom on my german server, but as it is just an addon not advertised on a german page, that might be ok. "grey-zone".
My next game-CD will be german, too.
On muppy-linux.de we will just announce the non violent SFS-files.
On the english page, you also will find doom/quake then, as that page adresses non-germans.
I think, that should be ok concerning our laws.
Mark
[url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=173456#173456]my recommended links[/url]
-
Colonel Panic
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: Sat 16 Sep 2006, 11:09
I think Zenwalk's pretty good as well, though the forum's not very responsive; a lot of my posts on there asking for advice end up being the last ones on that thread 
I haven't found the sharpness on the Vector forums that others refer to. It's friendly and offers good advice, and a number of people there use and like Puppy.
I haven't found the sharpness on the Vector forums that others refer to. It's friendly and offers good advice, and a number of people there use and like Puppy.
Good to have that clarification, thanks Mark. Yes, the SuSE heritage still shines through in places!
As for Vector, I haven't had any problems with their Forum, but still read that others have.
Zenwalk is in a class of its own. Quite one of the nastiest fora I've ever known. They are also blacklisted for non-compliance. Best left alone.
On the other hand, PCLinuxOS, the Forum and Texstar, in particular, constantly attract adverse comment, but his product, albeit limited in scope and packages, works reliably and stably for a very large number of followers who like it lots.
As for Vector, I haven't had any problems with their Forum, but still read that others have.
Zenwalk is in a class of its own. Quite one of the nastiest fora I've ever known. They are also blacklisted for non-compliance. Best left alone.
On the other hand, PCLinuxOS, the Forum and Texstar, in particular, constantly attract adverse comment, but his product, albeit limited in scope and packages, works reliably and stably for a very large number of followers who like it lots.
Yes there are many reasons we love Puppy, 
As a totaly newbie me have not the knowledge needed to know how
things work under the hood but one see difference in attitude in forums.
You are very generous here so that is appreciated very much..
I even failed to get posting priv in the DSL forum. Needed approval
by owner first.
Yes viololence is not seen lightly by authorituies they I brutally
shut down my Puppy by hard power off must hurt their sensitive minds.
Barry, why does wolvix managed to shut down when Puppy fails?
It could be me failing to give right cheat code in the start boot up.
Should I chose acpi=off instead of acpi=force?
One of the program reported they didn't like how APM was done
in my box. Are Puppy sensitive to quality of APM too?
Does it refer to Automatic Power Management? Is that speed of fan
and such?
As a totaly newbie me have not the knowledge needed to know how
things work under the hood but one see difference in attitude in forums.
You are very generous here so that is appreciated very much..
I even failed to get posting priv in the DSL forum. Needed approval
by owner first.
Yes viololence is not seen lightly by authorituies they I brutally
shut down my Puppy by hard power off must hurt their sensitive minds.
Barry, why does wolvix managed to shut down when Puppy fails?
It could be me failing to give right cheat code in the start boot up.
Should I chose acpi=off instead of acpi=force?
One of the program reported they didn't like how APM was done
in my box. Are Puppy sensitive to quality of APM too?
Does it refer to Automatic Power Management? Is that speed of fan
and such?