Suggestions for Puppy 2.18

[WhoDo]

...we need a default installation that works every time. It can default to a frugal if you like. I don't really care. But absent hardware failure, the default installation should not require any expertise to successfully install.

I agree. It would be best if the Install to HD option was for a frugal install by default, and we only offered a Full HD install for really old or RAM-challenged hardware. Hide the option somewhere behind a question button or whatever.

99 times out of 100, a Frugal install with the settings saved to the partition is the best option, IF you are going to install to HD at all. Then make sure that the Installer runs Grub Installer with some sensible options for newbies.

All of that is entirely in keeping with Puppy's design philosophy. It won't be too much longer when trying to load Puppy on machines with less than 128Mb RAM will be a non-event. As long as Puppy stays below 100Mb it is keeping faith with the recyclers like me.

Cheers

[sunburnt]

Pizzasgood; The sfs files could probably be kept just as they are, so they'll be
usable as sfs files or can be used as we're talking about, dual purpose usage.

In thinking about it, I see the wisdom of your arguement, the loader utility
would be much simpler if the sfs's file's were in fixed dirs.
So name the extention something like ".sfa" for Squash File Attachment.
There's probably more that can be done to enable this type of setup, but in just
keeping it fairly simple there's bound to be alot of apps. that'll work as they are.

SFA files wouldn't have to be large because of a limited number of unions, &
loading a dozen or two of them wouldn't bog down an older PC like the unionfs.
If fact an sfa file could be made for each app., just so there's lots of loop devices.

This is an idea worth exploring further, can some other folks give their 2 cents?
It'll be easy to test & develop this setup as it simplifies rather than complicates.

### NOTE: I just tried this with the Midnight Commander DotPup.
I extracted it to /root/mc & ran the exe "mc"... Error: can't find mc-bin.
I made a symlink to mc-bin in /root/my-applications/bin, & now it works!
It wasn't a squash file, but it was in a arbitrary sub dir. showing it works.
Lesser apps. should be fairly easy to get working for this setup.

[Jock]

Please please please add the console flat file database "index"

http://www.ajwells.uklinux.net/idexdb.html

its only about 30k in size.

[Jock]

The conclusion of this thread up to now for me is:
You can't please everybody.
Some like this others that.
Some like smaller distro's others want every thing in there.

I think it's time to bring out a modular approach and have people build the functionality they want at boot time or having it prepared before a next boot. f.e. the bootmanager is already something interesting in this aspect.

Good idea, but already done,
The word for this approach is Debian

[muggins]

jock,

re: index...just extract to /

[Lobster]

This approach is evolving I combined the Puppy Base with Ezpup and sfs, very easily (1 days hacking to create Linux Tmxxine)

The ideas were introduced here
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/MeatyInfo

=== excerpt
This brings us to another great reason for the new approach: it allows Barry Kauler, the creator of puppy, the time and freedom to focus on the area of greatest impact, the core operation system. By turning over the development, maintenance and support of the layers of window manager, look and feel, applications, etc. to the active community of developers he will have more time to continue turning out the elegant ideas and code that make puppy so fast and lean. The community has proven its commitment and ability to offer great solutions, and this will only increase the overall ability to move ahead. This allows a deepening level of collaboration, through efficient division of labor.
===

The .pet program allows packages to be uninstalled with package manager


What Warren did with EZpup was create some of the glitz of 2.15CE as an installable AND uninstallable .pet (in 2 hours work)

Brilliant. Just imagine Hacao or Edupup or DeveloperPup or [insert your special config] as enhancements to the Puppy base (no need to keep updating the whole puplet)

[sunburnt]

Jock & Lobster; PetGet looks to be the GUI that AptGet should be, though perhaps
not as robust in handling dependancies as the Debian package installer.
Both install to a designated area (Debian = full-install, Puppy = Save file) & then
delete the dirs. & files to uninstall, this is the standard classic approach.

Pizzasgood outlined a setup to simply mount Squash files without unioning them
& use them just like that, not as messy & doesn't take up drive or Save space.
It's also instantainious (no copying), & it's reliable but requires many loop devices.
Now all that's needed is sfaMaker (.pet to .sfa) & sfaManager GUIs.

[SimplyFlower]

This is written from the perspective of an average computer user, with little technical knowledge or experience. I've been reading through this thread and somethings I agree with and some I don't. Let me try to explain.

I was a MS Windows only user for several years (actually started with MSDOS). I hated Windows, but didn't know there was a user friendly alternative. I felt that I really didn't want to learn or try anything that required remembering a lot of commandline functions. I'm not as young as I used to be. I had heard about Linux/UNIX, but what I read was very confusing. Then, I discovered through a MS Windows users tips and tricks newsletter there were Linux distros that offered a Live-CD technology. This allowed a person to try out Linux without installing. It further explained that Linux now used a GUI (had a windows environment much like MS Windows). I clicked on a link in the newsletter that took me to a website that listed around 50 or more different distros. From this list, I chose Puppy Linux. Why? For its size, speed, no installation required ever (there was always the option, but no mandatory requirement), ease of use, stability, security, the number of apps that were already included, plenty of documentation (help files) also included, and to be perfectly honest the name appealed to me (I love puppies).

My thinking was here is an operating system that can never get corrupted, because it is started from a CD and copied to ram. Nothing can effect the actual operating system because it is on a CD (of course your CD can go bad, but you just have to burn a new one). Too many times, I've had to reformat a hard drive and reinstall the operating system and all my applications. Then go through and copy all my personal stuff back on the hard drive. I could never seem to get backup programs to work like I wanted. Too many times the help files used terminology I just didn't understand and looking it up in a dictionary or online didn't help.

Having several programs already to use was what I needed. I had no idea what to expect, but was willing to give it a go because everything was already there to use. Since I knew nothing about Linux and what it would take to install programs, I could use what was already offered and get a feel for Linux and learn at my own pace and still be able to do things that I did on Windows on a daily basis. I could browse, create letters, documents, do email, manage photos, download, listen to music, watch videos, manage files (save, delete, copy, backup), play games, etc. without having to add another program. Of course, I did over time, customizing my Puppy the way I wanted.

Cosmetics wasn't as important as functionality. Puppy worked straight out of the box (as they say) for me. I started with Puppy version 1.07 and am now using version 2.15CE. It has come a long way in appearance/functionality and for me is better than ever (my husband is now a new convert). Barry, other developers, and all those that have contributed with other packages and ideas, have done a superb job.

I like Rox. It is more responsive and easier to use than Windows Explorer, Nautilus, and Konqueror. Adding to the right click context window was simple to figure out (even for me). For Windows Explorer, it meant going into the registry (which really shouldn't be done unless a person really knows what they're doing). I'm sure there was probably a way to do it with other programs like Nautilus or Konquorer, but I couldn't ever figure it out. Leafpad is a great text editor. I like SeaMonkey for its ease of use in composing html, email and browsing. Applications wise, I wouldn't downsize. Puppy isn't fat or bloated. He's just the right weight. For anyone coming from MS Windows to Linux, having some variety to try and use right away is important. Anybody that has some experience with Linux is probably already going to have their own likes and dislikes so it really isn't going to matter much what is or isn't included. They will probably customize Puppy to their own liking anyway. Of course using .sfs files to add other packages is great also. With that in mind, I agree more loop devices will be needed (already I have 6 .sfs files I want to use, but am limited to 3).

All this, of course, is my own opinion and anybody is free to agree or disagree.

[WhoDo]

All this, of course, is my own opinion and anybody is free to agree or disagree.

Why on earth would anyone want to disagree with such a great Puppy success story?

I enjoyed every word and, although you use the Puppy in an entirely different fashion to me, I can find nothing to criticise in your choices. Well done!

[BarryK]

SimplyFlower, I also enjoyed reading your post, because I think it encapsulates what most MS Windows refugees expect or hope for.

[jboettge]

This is a new suggestion, not related to the discussion before.

More and more of these nice new CPU's come out. And not everyone is able to compile a new kernel including working modules.

For that my request:
An alternate iso, precomplied with SMP und HT support for these having a new machine.

By myself I worked a few days on this topic. And fine, the kernel compiled and the processors where shown. But one time I didn't have usb, the next scsi was missing etc. For that I'm still not able to use puppy on a real productive machine, sorry. Real lack compared with modern (yes, I know, resource hungry) distros like ubuntu.

Maybe on of you specialists get's this running. Would be great!
Think these people having a laptop, still running XP etc. They could have puppy there, really using both cores and vmware server for the windows tasks left But nobody wants to loose one core because of the distro not having smp support

[jamesbond]

I second the SMP kernel idea - but only if the performance hit on single CPU systems is minor.

[willhunt]

me I just want theOpenMosixpatch applied then smp is available to even
the old equipment! and I really want to build a Boewulfpuppy after all
Beowulf already sounds like a puppy distro!

[jboettge]

There are always big discussions about performance on SMP systems. Without paralleled applications you don't see much, just background tasks may run smoother
And yes, a puppy cluster could be worth learning a lot about distributed computing

My experience on dual xeon 1,7 workstation with ubuntu and running vmware server:
- smoother switching between gui applications
- faster swaping if low on ram
- real boost if running vmware server with more than one VM
But I'm the person having at least 10 windows open and two+ doing FFT-analysis etc. About 80% cpu load for both processors is my optimum

Also hyperthreading seams to make a heavy loaded system running smoother (had 2 spare 1,8 Xeons with HT support), again good to see with vmware.

No experience with AMD, don't have time to check this within the next weeks.

But, sorry: With office aplications you won't see anything from the second cpu - so the nice advertisements of multi core cpu's are some like a joke for the normal user.

SMP enabled on a non smp machine costs you about 5%. So better to have two iso that everyone can choose.

[sunburnt]

jboettge is correct about the limited usefulness of multi. cpus & diaper threading.
Also we won't be seeing very much from 64bit either, except for XP games.
It would be good for Linux also but I dont know how well Linux handles XP games.
Like Halo 2 (XP only), Cedega may do them well, I don't know.

Games are pretty much the only thing left that Win. has exclusively in it's corner.
M$ can't be allowed to corner the market like this & monopolize (shutout) other OSs.
So a law to assure cross OS software, 1 year to port to any OS you care about,
and after that anyone can port to any OS left & it's their's to sell. etc.
It's the software makers that code only for Win., make it their responsibility to port
their software, they'll pick up Linux & any other common OSs to protect themselves.
Problem solved...

[willhunt]

Well I see a great many distro's every year and for the last 2 years I've been watching and playing with my puppy and boy how he has grown! Puppy IMHO is the hands down The Best migration distro out. It's ez of use and it's persistant storage and speed make it a big winner everytime I show him to ppl looking for a release from the M$ ball and chain. Puppy is very intutive for new linux users. The end user (is that a term in linux communitity : ) can only use the functions in the kernel to be honest outside of the fusermount additon I was happy with the 2.4 kernel and it is still my happiest puppy rambling again. A EZ_beowulf cluster! heck it even already sounds like puppy I can hear all 17 puppies bark'n at boot hey it there just away to add these patches without complete recompile of the kernel?

[sunburnt]

willhunt; I'm pretty sure that the kernel has to be recompiled for any of the load sharing setups.

[clarf]

I´m using Puppy 2.16 in some old machines (Xcel 2000 with PII and PC100 with pentium mmx), Puppy runs very well but it use a lot of RAM. I have 128 MB in each machine and the video card uses 4-8 MB. Then i ran Puppy but i can´t expulse the cd-rom i suppose that Puppy still reads some info from CD, and i can´t put another CD-rom to see videos or DVD. But memory monitor says that i have 40 MB for my??????. In the PartitionMap i can see free memory....

You could add some warning when Puppy Linux is not fully loaded in MEmory.

Is hard to find SIMM or old DIMM modules for these machines, more over them can´t accept much memory. In the other hand is hard to find old hard disk drive for these machine (even more find HDD that works), you know hdd have a life range and it start to fail since it´s created (Multisession disc is a big idea used by Puppy).

I hope Puppy returns to old versions style, and run in less memory something like 92 MB (32 MB SIMM module and 64 MD DIMM module, minous 4 MB shared video) and not exactly 128 MB.... (I readed post and helps but it is not specified)

I would like to resize icons in desktop, even in 800x600 (for old machines) the look very big, i resized desktop fonts but it doesn´t work.

I would like to use some wallpapers like screensavers, like some Windows apps, that change images with some cool effects...

I hope you understand i´m new in linux world, but i´m excited with the Puppy+old machine idea. It´s a super Distro.

[Flash]

You could add some warning when Puppy Linux is not fully loaded in MEmory.

How to word it without confusing or alarming the inexperienced user?

(Multisession disc is a big idea used by Puppy).

But multisession necessarily needs a lot of RAM. On the other hand, considering its lack of reliability, perhaps the most appropriate use of a hard disk is as swap memory in a computer which runs Puppy from a multisession DVD.

I would like to resize icons in desktop, even in 800x600 (for old machines) the look very big, i resized desktop fonts but it doesn´t work.

I would like to use some wallpapers like screensavers, like some Windows apps, that change images with some cool effects...

You should ask these as separate questions in the Users forum. The forum works better when you don't mix topics.

[clarf]

You could add some warning when Puppy Linux is not fully loaded in MEmory.

How to word it without confusing or alarming the inexperienced user?

well, a small info like "xx% kernel (Puppy) loaded in memory" could advise the user, and the memory and swap maps wasn't clear about that. Anyway when i tried to expulse the Puppy Cd and the CD drive ddin't open, i was alarming by a cd drive fail (...pushing many times the open button), until i see the read led flashing whe i used some apps.... (I also used a new machine with 256 MB and it opened the cd drive).

You should ask these as separate questions in the Users forum. The forum works better when you don't mix topics.

Excuse me for that i thought Puppy didn't have that function... Thanks.