Hi, again. really im very impressed about Puppy capabilities, and potential. And i just wonder if dancer (2.18 release) will improve some aspects in full hd install. It just i think there are may live and usb booteables distros. But the real thing is there are a lot of people whos has old laptops and machines. And really Puppy is an option to work as i see today, actually i start to use puppy as a geoworkstation (geosciences) (now im installing grass gis, qgis, some seismic viewers etc. etc), and all this soft is no for running from usb pendrive. Usually your data c'ant fit in a 1GB pen drive so barely you can run programs in so little space left. Sfs option are great, but just for usb resident puppies.. what about hd installed ones? I know there are some procedures to install, but the sfs idea in hd install is goo for me.. May be.. just may be Barry pay some attention in this point of Puppy, or may be we (i mean me and other new barkers... ) should try another Puppy derivative with all this features... i mena sfs working in full hs installed puppies ..
I dont know... i think is beacause dream is for free... and some times.. dreams come true.. jeje
anyway keep going.. Puppy is a great partner in work and as you know is a man's best firend...
Give a bone to the puppy!!!
Cheers
Suggestions for Puppy 2.18
remember asking for this when i first joined the forum but 2.16 is further away from this goal than 2.12sunburnt wrote:Fix Puppy being booted with all it's files in a sub dir. (like /puppy218).
This allows booting of many Puppy versions that're on a single partition or CD.
the number of related params eg PDEV1, PMEDIA, PUPDIR?, PFILE etc are confusing i'm not sure which are obsolete (is there an updated def. list for each puppy release?) could some/all be replaced by a new
PHOME=dev/dir. eg PHOME=hda1/puppy218, or PHOME=idehd/ to scan all hd root folders.
100% agree.Extra addon SFS files should be in a common dir. (like /sfs) for any Puppy to use.
This would also make it easy for the BootManager to find the extra SFS files.
Puppy should stop relying on anything being in the root of a partition.
...for roamers (save file on a usb, plugged into multiple machines) boot-up should still do a quick check to ensure the drivers in the save file are still appropriate for the hardwareBarry has already taken a first step to modularity, the zdrv SFS file.
This was a good idea, but I think it's mounted & the modules are used from it.
It should be mounted, the needed modules copied to the Save file & unmounted.
This reduces the number of union mounts by 1 (if it's not done this way already).
another (old) suggestion...
rox file manager - option to render contents 'raw' (ie without colour/icons/emphasis, ie dump the output of "ls -l" into the window as-is) - i still notice it takes quite a long time to render the contents of a not-too-big directory (despite recent upgrade from a 400mhs to a 1.7ghz cpu)
rox is the 1st thing new users see, and it isn't as quick/slick as windows explorer
rox file manager - option to render contents 'raw' (ie without colour/icons/emphasis, ie dump the output of "ls -l" into the window as-is) - i still notice it takes quite a long time to render the contents of a not-too-big directory (despite recent upgrade from a 400mhs to a 1.7ghz cpu)
rox is the 1st thing new users see, and it isn't as quick/slick as windows explorer
Hi patagonik; As far as we know SFS files can't be unioned with a full install.
So I've made a SFS installer for full-HD installs of Puppy (Testing), see post:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=17068
Hi joki; If you gunzip the initrd.gz file & look at the file /sbin/init,
you'll see a list of boot options up near the top of the page.
There's a number of Win. Explorer style file browsers offered,
but I haven't found one yet that I can control the right click context menu.
Alot of them are kinda funky & not really very much like Win. Explorer.
One of them didn't have any drag-drop function for the left dir. tree panel.
IF you find a good one... Tell us!
So I've made a SFS installer for full-HD installs of Puppy (Testing), see post:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=17068
Hi joki; If you gunzip the initrd.gz file & look at the file /sbin/init,
you'll see a list of boot options up near the top of the page.
There's a number of Win. Explorer style file browsers offered,
but I haven't found one yet that I can control the right click context menu.
Alot of them are kinda funky & not really very much like Win. Explorer.
One of them didn't have any drag-drop function for the left dir. tree panel.
IF you find a good one... Tell us!
Puppy Needs a better installer
I know it has been mentioned before in this thread but I want to throw in my two cents worth. For me, one of Puppy's greatest needs is a better installation program. And by that I'm talking about the program that installs Puppy itself.
One of the virtues of almost every Linux distro I've tried is that when they finish their installation routine, you have a workable, bootable operating system. I look through this forum and it seems too many of the entries are installation problems of one type or another. And those are just the folks who bothered to search out the forum and ask for help. We have no way of knowing how many others failed and went with some other Linux that didn't ask them anything more exotic than what language do you speak. What Puppy needs is a bulletproof installation program. Not something that Pizzasgood or the other veterans can fix but something that a newbie who isn't reading every word on the screen religiously can make work. Accepting the default entries should be all you need to do.
I understand that there are about a thousand different configurations and I fully appreciate the obstacle that presents. But we need a default installation that works every time. It can default to a frugal if you like. I don't really care. But absent hardware failure, the default installation should not require any expertise to successfully install.
One of the virtues of almost every Linux distro I've tried is that when they finish their installation routine, you have a workable, bootable operating system. I look through this forum and it seems too many of the entries are installation problems of one type or another. And those are just the folks who bothered to search out the forum and ask for help. We have no way of knowing how many others failed and went with some other Linux that didn't ask them anything more exotic than what language do you speak. What Puppy needs is a bulletproof installation program. Not something that Pizzasgood or the other veterans can fix but something that a newbie who isn't reading every word on the screen religiously can make work. Accepting the default entries should be all you need to do.
I understand that there are about a thousand different configurations and I fully appreciate the obstacle that presents. But we need a default installation that works every time. It can default to a frugal if you like. I don't really care. But absent hardware failure, the default installation should not require any expertise to successfully install.
Skimmel; I agree, my thought was that Puppy shouldn't rely on CDs.
A boot floppy/USB/CD Linux O.S. to do installs to HD & USB is needed.
A console O.S. with noob friendly "dialog" GUIs to do the needed work.
Red Hat & other large distros. have boot disks like this & even network install.
It must partition, format, & make bootable (Grub &/or SysLinux), then install.
It should install from Puppy ISO files, & maybe do Unleashed builds of Puppy.
A tiny generic standalone O.S. that does setup & rescue of other O.S.s (Puppy).
I've looked but I've had no luck at all finding anything like this.
There's lots of rescue floppys, but none I've seen are GUI like the W.D. one.
If it was bigger than a floppy that'd be okay, few new PCs have one anyway.
A boot floppy/USB/CD Linux O.S. to do installs to HD & USB is needed.
A console O.S. with noob friendly "dialog" GUIs to do the needed work.
Red Hat & other large distros. have boot disks like this & even network install.
It must partition, format, & make bootable (Grub &/or SysLinux), then install.
It should install from Puppy ISO files, & maybe do Unleashed builds of Puppy.
A tiny generic standalone O.S. that does setup & rescue of other O.S.s (Puppy).
I've looked but I've had no luck at all finding anything like this.
There's lots of rescue floppys, but none I've seen are GUI like the W.D. one.
If it was bigger than a floppy that'd be okay, few new PCs have one anyway.
-
BarryK
- Puppy Master
- Posts: 9392
- Joined: Mon 09 May 2005, 09:23
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
- Contact:
Sunburnt, yeah, zdrv does not use unionfs at all, it is just mounted when needed and the files extracted, then it is unmounted. The 'modprobe' script does this. There was no need to have the overhead of mounting it as another union layer.Barry has already taken a first step to modularity, the zdrv SFS file.
This was a good idea, but I think it's mounted & the modules are used from it.
It should be mounted, the needed modules copied to the Save file & unmounted.
This reduces the number of union mounts by 1 (if it's not done this way already).
Barry; This is a suggestion best for your developers forum, I'll post it there also.
Have the modprobe script also look for a URL that's set in a /etc config. file.
This URL would be a URL pointer to actual download sites for libraries,
thus allowing better & more reliable management of the web archive.
So the zdrv file doesn't have to be downloaded if there's internet available.
To make internet access more reliable have Puppy loaded with NIC modules,
& cut back on any of the other modules that aren't needed for first bootup.
As the user configures Puppy the libraries, drivers, codecs, etc. would be
added & removed from the user's Puppy install, this keeps bloat to a minimum.
Awhile back I started working on a utility to do this.
Have the modprobe script also look for a URL that's set in a /etc config. file.
This URL would be a URL pointer to actual download sites for libraries,
thus allowing better & more reliable management of the web archive.
So the zdrv file doesn't have to be downloaded if there's internet available.
To make internet access more reliable have Puppy loaded with NIC modules,
& cut back on any of the other modules that aren't needed for first bootup.
As the user configures Puppy the libraries, drivers, codecs, etc. would be
added & removed from the user's Puppy install, this keeps bloat to a minimum.
Awhile back I started working on a utility to do this.
Yet another suggestion... I just don't quit do I ?
Mount some SFS files but don't union them, just use them like the zdrv file is.
The apps. are used from it's mount sub dir. & not copied into the main dir. tree.
Some apps. would work like this & some wouldn't, just find the ones that do.
Then the SFS files can be added & removed with no limits on the number,
providing more loop devices are added to Puppy, say... at least 16 loops total.
Loop devices are reliable, the union mount is problematic & has a limit of 5.
So reduce the reliance on unioning for apps. & simply attach them to use them.
Mount some SFS files but don't union them, just use them like the zdrv file is.
The apps. are used from it's mount sub dir. & not copied into the main dir. tree.
Some apps. would work like this & some wouldn't, just find the ones that do.
Then the SFS files can be added & removed with no limits on the number,
providing more loop devices are added to Puppy, say... at least 16 loops total.
Loop devices are reliable, the union mount is problematic & has a limit of 5.
So reduce the reliance on unioning for apps. & simply attach them to use them.
-
Pizzasgood
- Posts: 6183
- Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
- Location: Knoxville, TN, USA
Along with that, create a standard layout for the guts of those modules. Since it's not getting unioned it can be simplified. A /bin, a /lib, an /icons, etc. Then, the app that mounts the module could also symlink stuff to the appropriate places within the normal filesystem to put the apps in the path, enable XDG menus, etc.
You could also use an alternate place for such symlinks so they don't make everything else messy, then just add that location to the paths. /opt/bin/, for example. Depending on how the loader program works, that could be cleared out each boot and repopulated with whatever's loaded, or have it keep track of which files belong to which module and just clean up after itself when things are removed.
You could also use an alternate place for such symlinks so they don't make everything else messy, then just add that location to the paths. /opt/bin/, for example. Depending on how the loader program works, that could be cleared out each boot and repopulated with whatever's loaded, or have it keep track of which files belong to which module and just clean up after itself when things are removed.
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Re: Puppy Needs a better installer
I agree. It would be best if the Install to HD option was for a frugal install by default, and we only offered a Full HD install for really old or RAM-challenged hardware. Hide the option somewhere behind a question button or whatever.Skimmel wrote:...we need a default installation that works every time. It can default to a frugal if you like. I don't really care. But absent hardware failure, the default installation should not require any expertise to successfully install.
99 times out of 100, a Frugal install with the settings saved to the partition is the best option, IF you are going to install to HD at all. Then make sure that the Installer runs Grub Installer with some sensible options for newbies.
All of that is entirely in keeping with Puppy's design philosophy. It won't be too much longer when trying to load Puppy on machines with less than 128Mb RAM will be a non-event. As long as Puppy stays below 100Mb it is keeping faith with the recyclers like me.
Cheers
[i]Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't![/i]
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Pizzasgood; The sfs files could probably be kept just as they are, so they'll be
usable as sfs files or can be used as we're talking about, dual purpose usage.
In thinking about it, I see the wisdom of your arguement, the loader utility
would be much simpler if the sfs's file's were in fixed dirs.
So name the extention something like ".sfa" for Squash File Attachment.
There's probably more that can be done to enable this type of setup, but in just
keeping it fairly simple there's bound to be alot of apps. that'll work as they are.
SFA files wouldn't have to be large because of a limited number of unions, &
loading a dozen or two of them wouldn't bog down an older PC like the unionfs.
If fact an sfa file could be made for each app., just so there's lots of loop devices.
This is an idea worth exploring further, can some other folks give their 2 cents?
It'll be easy to test & develop this setup as it simplifies rather than complicates.
### NOTE: I just tried this with the Midnight Commander DotPup.
I extracted it to /root/mc & ran the exe "mc"... Error: can't find mc-bin.
I made a symlink to mc-bin in /root/my-applications/bin, & now it works!
It wasn't a squash file, but it was in a arbitrary sub dir. showing it works.
Lesser apps. should be fairly easy to get working for this setup.
usable as sfs files or can be used as we're talking about, dual purpose usage.
In thinking about it, I see the wisdom of your arguement, the loader utility
would be much simpler if the sfs's file's were in fixed dirs.
So name the extention something like ".sfa" for Squash File Attachment.
There's probably more that can be done to enable this type of setup, but in just
keeping it fairly simple there's bound to be alot of apps. that'll work as they are.
SFA files wouldn't have to be large because of a limited number of unions, &
loading a dozen or two of them wouldn't bog down an older PC like the unionfs.
If fact an sfa file could be made for each app., just so there's lots of loop devices.
This is an idea worth exploring further, can some other folks give their 2 cents?
It'll be easy to test & develop this setup as it simplifies rather than complicates.
### NOTE: I just tried this with the Midnight Commander DotPup.
I extracted it to /root/mc & ran the exe "mc"... Error: can't find mc-bin.
I made a symlink to mc-bin in /root/my-applications/bin, & now it works!
It wasn't a squash file, but it was in a arbitrary sub dir. showing it works.
Lesser apps. should be fairly easy to get working for this setup.
Please please please add the console flat file database "index"
http://www.ajwells.uklinux.net/idexdb.html
its only about 30k in size.
http://www.ajwells.uklinux.net/idexdb.html
its only about 30k in size.
My best regards
Jock
Jock
Good idea, but already done,Béèm wrote:The conclusion of this thread up to now for me is:
You can't please everybody.
Some like this others that.
Some like smaller distro's others want every thing in there.
I think it's time to bring out a modular approach and have people build the functionality they want at boot time or having it prepared before a next boot. f.e. the bootmanager is already something interesting in this aspect.
The word for this approach is Debian
My best regards
Jock
Jock
-
Lobster
- Official Crustacean
- Posts: 15522
- Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
- Location: Paradox Realm
- Contact:
This approach is evolving I combined the Puppy Base with Ezpup and sfs, very easily (1 days hacking to create Linux Tmxxine)
The ideas were introduced here
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/MeatyInfo
=== excerpt
This brings us to another great reason for the new approach: it allows Barry Kauler, the creator of puppy, the time and freedom to focus on the area of greatest impact, the core operation system. By turning over the development, maintenance and support of the layers of window manager, look and feel, applications, etc. to the active community of developers he will have more time to continue turning out the elegant ideas and code that make puppy so fast and lean. The community has proven its commitment and ability to offer great solutions, and this will only increase the overall ability to move ahead. This allows a deepening level of collaboration, through efficient division of labor.
===
The .pet program allows packages to be uninstalled with package manager
What Warren did with EZpup was create some of the glitz of 2.15CE as an installable AND uninstallable .pet (in 2 hours work)
Brilliant. Just imagine Hacao or Edupup or DeveloperPup or [insert your special config] as enhancements to the Puppy base (no need to keep updating the whole puplet)
The ideas were introduced here
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/MeatyInfo
=== excerpt
This brings us to another great reason for the new approach: it allows Barry Kauler, the creator of puppy, the time and freedom to focus on the area of greatest impact, the core operation system. By turning over the development, maintenance and support of the layers of window manager, look and feel, applications, etc. to the active community of developers he will have more time to continue turning out the elegant ideas and code that make puppy so fast and lean. The community has proven its commitment and ability to offer great solutions, and this will only increase the overall ability to move ahead. This allows a deepening level of collaboration, through efficient division of labor.
===
The .pet program allows packages to be uninstalled with package manager
What Warren did with EZpup was create some of the glitz of 2.15CE as an installable AND uninstallable .pet (in 2 hours work)
Brilliant. Just imagine Hacao or Edupup or DeveloperPup or [insert your special config] as enhancements to the Puppy base (no need to keep updating the whole puplet)
Jock & Lobster; PetGet looks to be the GUI that AptGet should be, though perhaps
not as robust in handling dependancies as the Debian package installer.
Both install to a designated area (Debian = full-install, Puppy = Save file) & then
delete the dirs. & files to uninstall, this is the standard classic approach.
Pizzasgood outlined a setup to simply mount Squash files without unioning them
& use them just like that, not as messy & doesn't take up drive or Save space.
It's also instantainious (no copying), & it's reliable but requires many loop devices.
Now all that's needed is sfaMaker (.pet to .sfa) & sfaManager GUIs.
not as robust in handling dependancies as the Debian package installer.
Both install to a designated area (Debian = full-install, Puppy = Save file) & then
delete the dirs. & files to uninstall, this is the standard classic approach.
Pizzasgood outlined a setup to simply mount Squash files without unioning them
& use them just like that, not as messy & doesn't take up drive or Save space.
It's also instantainious (no copying), & it's reliable but requires many loop devices.
Now all that's needed is sfaMaker (.pet to .sfa) & sfaManager GUIs.
-
SimplyFlower
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Fri 03 Mar 2006, 10:46
- Location: Oregon, United States
This is written from the perspective of an average computer user, with little technical knowledge or experience. I've been reading through this thread and somethings I agree with and some I don't. Let me try to explain.
I was a MS Windows only user for several years (actually started with MSDOS). I hated Windows, but didn't know there was a user friendly alternative. I felt that I really didn't want to learn or try anything that required remembering a lot of commandline functions. I'm not as young as I used to be. I had heard about Linux/UNIX, but what I read was very confusing. Then, I discovered through a MS Windows users tips and tricks newsletter there were Linux distros that offered a Live-CD technology. This allowed a person to try out Linux without installing. It further explained that Linux now used a GUI (had a windows environment much like MS Windows). I clicked on a link in the newsletter that took me to a website that listed around 50 or more different distros. From this list, I chose Puppy Linux. Why? For its size, speed, no installation required ever (there was always the option, but no mandatory requirement), ease of use, stability, security, the number of apps that were already included, plenty of documentation (help files) also included, and to be perfectly honest the name appealed to me (I love puppies).
My thinking was here is an operating system that can never get corrupted, because it is started from a CD and copied to ram. Nothing can effect the actual operating system because it is on a CD (of course your CD can go bad, but you just have to burn a new one). Too many times, I've had to reformat a hard drive and reinstall the operating system and all my applications. Then go through and copy all my personal stuff back on the hard drive. I could never seem to get backup programs to work like I wanted. Too many times the help files used terminology I just didn't understand and looking it up in a dictionary or online didn't help.
Having several programs already to use was what I needed. I had no idea what to expect, but was willing to give it a go because everything was already there to use. Since I knew nothing about Linux and what it would take to install programs, I could use what was already offered and get a feel for Linux and learn at my own pace and still be able to do things that I did on Windows on a daily basis. I could browse, create letters, documents, do email, manage photos, download, listen to music, watch videos, manage files (save, delete, copy, backup), play games, etc. without having to add another program. Of course, I did over time, customizing my Puppy the way I wanted.
Cosmetics wasn't as important as functionality. Puppy worked straight out of the box (as they say) for me. I started with Puppy version 1.07 and am now using version 2.15CE. It has come a long way in appearance/functionality and for me is better than ever (my husband is now a new convert). Barry, other developers, and all those that have contributed with other packages and ideas, have done a superb job.
I like Rox. It is more responsive and easier to use than Windows Explorer, Nautilus, and Konqueror. Adding to the right click context window was simple to figure out (even for me). For Windows Explorer, it meant going into the registry (which really shouldn't be done unless a person really knows what they're doing). I'm sure there was probably a way to do it with other programs like Nautilus or Konquorer, but I couldn't ever figure it out. Leafpad is a great text editor. I like SeaMonkey for its ease of use in composing html, email and browsing. Applications wise, I wouldn't downsize. Puppy isn't fat or bloated. He's just the right weight. For anyone coming from MS Windows to Linux, having some variety to try and use right away is important. Anybody that has some experience with Linux is probably already going to have their own likes and dislikes so it really isn't going to matter much what is or isn't included. They will probably customize Puppy to their own liking anyway. Of course using .sfs files to add other packages is great also. With that in mind, I agree more loop devices will be needed (already I have 6 .sfs files I want to use, but am limited to 3).
All this, of course, is my own opinion and anybody is free to agree or disagree.
I was a MS Windows only user for several years (actually started with MSDOS). I hated Windows, but didn't know there was a user friendly alternative. I felt that I really didn't want to learn or try anything that required remembering a lot of commandline functions. I'm not as young as I used to be. I had heard about Linux/UNIX, but what I read was very confusing. Then, I discovered through a MS Windows users tips and tricks newsletter there were Linux distros that offered a Live-CD technology. This allowed a person to try out Linux without installing. It further explained that Linux now used a GUI (had a windows environment much like MS Windows). I clicked on a link in the newsletter that took me to a website that listed around 50 or more different distros. From this list, I chose Puppy Linux. Why? For its size, speed, no installation required ever (there was always the option, but no mandatory requirement), ease of use, stability, security, the number of apps that were already included, plenty of documentation (help files) also included, and to be perfectly honest the name appealed to me (I love puppies).
My thinking was here is an operating system that can never get corrupted, because it is started from a CD and copied to ram. Nothing can effect the actual operating system because it is on a CD (of course your CD can go bad, but you just have to burn a new one). Too many times, I've had to reformat a hard drive and reinstall the operating system and all my applications. Then go through and copy all my personal stuff back on the hard drive. I could never seem to get backup programs to work like I wanted. Too many times the help files used terminology I just didn't understand and looking it up in a dictionary or online didn't help.
Having several programs already to use was what I needed. I had no idea what to expect, but was willing to give it a go because everything was already there to use. Since I knew nothing about Linux and what it would take to install programs, I could use what was already offered and get a feel for Linux and learn at my own pace and still be able to do things that I did on Windows on a daily basis. I could browse, create letters, documents, do email, manage photos, download, listen to music, watch videos, manage files (save, delete, copy, backup), play games, etc. without having to add another program. Of course, I did over time, customizing my Puppy the way I wanted.
Cosmetics wasn't as important as functionality. Puppy worked straight out of the box (as they say) for me. I started with Puppy version 1.07 and am now using version 2.15CE. It has come a long way in appearance/functionality and for me is better than ever (my husband is now a new convert). Barry, other developers, and all those that have contributed with other packages and ideas, have done a superb job.
I like Rox. It is more responsive and easier to use than Windows Explorer, Nautilus, and Konqueror. Adding to the right click context window was simple to figure out (even for me). For Windows Explorer, it meant going into the registry (which really shouldn't be done unless a person really knows what they're doing). I'm sure there was probably a way to do it with other programs like Nautilus or Konquorer, but I couldn't ever figure it out. Leafpad is a great text editor. I like SeaMonkey for its ease of use in composing html, email and browsing. Applications wise, I wouldn't downsize. Puppy isn't fat or bloated. He's just the right weight. For anyone coming from MS Windows to Linux, having some variety to try and use right away is important. Anybody that has some experience with Linux is probably already going to have their own likes and dislikes so it really isn't going to matter much what is or isn't included. They will probably customize Puppy to their own liking anyway. Of course using .sfs files to add other packages is great also. With that in mind, I agree more loop devices will be needed (already I have 6 .sfs files I want to use, but am limited to 3).
All this, of course, is my own opinion and anybody is free to agree or disagree.
[color=#8B0AE0]-- [i][size=150]SimplyFlower[/size][/i][/color]
[size=25]Puppy Linux 2.15CE Final, Frugal w/pup_save.2fs file; Dell w/ Intel Celeron 1.1 GHZ, 512 MB RAM[/size]
[color=#8B0AE0][url=http://my.care2.com/simplyflower]Care2[/url][/color]
[size=25]Puppy Linux 2.15CE Final, Frugal w/pup_save.2fs file; Dell w/ Intel Celeron 1.1 GHZ, 512 MB RAM[/size]
[color=#8B0AE0][url=http://my.care2.com/simplyflower]Care2[/url][/color]
Why on earth would anyone want to disagree with such a great Puppy success story?SimplyFlower wrote:All this, of course, is my own opinion and anybody is free to agree or disagree.
I enjoyed every word and, although you use the Puppy in an entirely different fashion to me, I can find nothing to criticise in your choices. Well done!
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