Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship

[WhoDo]

and btw whodo, i just had a look at what BK said in 2007 and nowhere does he say what you do

Really? What about this ...

Anybody is welcome to fork the project and manage it anyway they like. The thing is though, it isn't easy, an incredible amount of commitment is required. If you like Puppy but would like to see more formal management, Nathan, the developer of Grafpup might be interested.

... or this ...

Another issue is how to contribute? The answer to that is just get involved in the Forum, chat with others, get to know what's going on, find out what needs doing. It's very informal. Get involved in a discussion thread. If a solution is developed for some problem, or a new application, that you think needs to be in the next Puppy, send me a personal message via the Forum.

Or even test your own modified Puppy.

... or even this ...

If you are a user and something does not work, maybe your wifi card, or whatever, do not contact me directly. Go to the Forum, create a new thread. I get lots of emails and personal messages from people with problems, asking me can I fix it -- well, I can't even acknowledge the message, there are too many of them. Go to the Forum. I am the person you contact when something is to be contributed for the next Puppy.

Seems to me there is plenty of advice in there about getting things done ... principally by doing it yourself in some way, shape or form!

[jonyo]

he doesn't say like it or leave directly as you do

[WhoDo]

iow a take it or leave it attitude is an insult to users

No, it's an insult to USERS; those who want things but aren't prepared to give anything in return. I don't mind insulting them. After all, what have I lost if they leave? Nothing!

Look, jonyo, I don't have it in for the average user (lowercase). Most are perfectly willing to contribute something - anything - within the limit of their capacity to do so! They are GOLD indeed. But they are not here demanding things be done their way! They take what they can get, give what they can and are happy for anything they get in return either way! The devs don't mind listening to them and trying to help them wherever possible; that way everyone benefits. But like many of the devs, Puppy was my HOBBY, not my JOB, and unreasonable demands eventually turned it from one thing into the other except the JOB didn't pay anything at all! Now I have another hobby; nothing to do with Linux. Life is FUN again, until I read that over here nothing much has changed at all! The whiners are still trying to dictate to everyone else and doing nothing for themselves! Sorry, but that's no FUN at all!

[WhoDo]

he doesn't say like it or leave directly as you do

Really? Then what do you perceive is the meaning of this?

Puppy has never been run as a "proper" project, it has always been ad-hoc. There is no CVS/SVN server, no bug-reporter. For the last couple of years, new puppies have been released every 6 - 8 weeks, a hectic pace, and some would say too hasty for proper bug catching prior to each release. Right up front I would like to state that none of this is likely to change.

...and this...

So I just do whatever I please -- I consider all advice very carefully, and often do follow it, but in the end what it comes down to is I decide what to do next in Puppy. There is no committee, no inner-circle. You may advise me, but I have no obligation to do anything that you say or expect. If you think I've done something dumb, well, that's just tough.

{my emphasis}

[jonyo]

and i would say you have a poor attitude and outlook that came to roost

[jonyo]

i don't take those comments to be take it or leave it and they have to be taken in context with what was going on in 2007

i take those comments to mean ~ i'm gonna do my thing

[jonyo]

and i say again users are the foundation of a distro

[WhoDo]

and i would say you have a poor attitude and outlook that came to roost

No, I just have an attitude that you and a few other whiners don't personally like! That's your right and it's within your power to DO something about it ... like it or leave! Don't read my posts. Don't respond to my posts. Whatever it takes to restore your equilibrium ... or just take some Librium! Either way I don't care! I'm too busy having FUN! Or, in the vernacular of Barry's message ..."tough"!

[WhoDo]

i don't take those comments to be take it or leave it and they have to be taken in context with what was going on in 2007

i take those comments to mean ~ i'm gonna do my thing

Really? Read this bit again, Forest!

If you like Puppy but would like to see more formal management, Nathan, the developer of Grafpup might be interested.

The clear implication here is that Barry is not interested in more formal management. If you are then try another version! Seems pretty black and white to me!

[jonyo]

and users can be fickle as other greater distros have discoverd

[jonyo]

anyway it's up to folks to decide for themselves, you make a clear distinction in what you say vs what BK sez

[WhoDo]

and i say again users are the foundation of a distro

Self-delusion is pulling in your stomach when you step on the scales.

... and I'm not really fat! Thanks. Now I feel a lot better!

[Q5sys]

I'll just paraphrase my post from the other silly thread......

When a participant has to resort to insults and belittlement toward those who disagree the debate is lost

.

Sounds an awful lot like my comment a few days ago...

Why don’t you support AttackPup and help others of your ilk crack their neighbors network and steal their Internet access?

That sir, is what is called an 'ad hominem attack'. Short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity or invalidity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.

Ad hominem attacks are where you attack the person, and not the argument. If you can’t pick apart the argument being made, don’t go after the person. It makes you look stupid. If your response to my point is to attack me personally, you’ve lost. You’ve got no point to make, and you’re just embarassing yourself.

Abusive ad hominem attacks involve insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate your argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults your opponent's personal character or actions which have nothing to do with the logical merits of the your opponent's arguments or assertions

As for AttackPup, thanks for the free advertisement about it. It's a release intended for those within the Security community, those who wish to do security analysis of their own systems or those who are interested in learning about Computer Security. If you dont like those tactics... take that up with the greater Computer Security Community.

However in other news...

The fact that a Puppy Linux Foundation ever existed tells me that there is a need for governance. Why it ceased operation is of no consequence at this late date.

I'm sorry but this has GOT to be the dumbest thing I've heard you said in this and the other threads. Why something fell doesnt matter to you? As has been said already in this thread 'those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.'

Let me just subsitute topics here and show you how silly your arguement is.


The fact that a National Socialist Party Governance of a society (Nazi Party) ever existed tells me that there is a need for Nazi governance. Why Nazism ceased operation is of no consequence at this late date.


Sorry... but this thread has gone on long enough with a nazi reference.. so I figured it was about time.
And since I'm going there... I might as well go one more... 'Hitler was democratically elected.'

And lastly...

I assure you, I`m not being "dim"...
Read the "Official Lupu 5.25" thread....
Tell me Playdayz didnt bend over backwards...

Oh really, then why hasn't this been answered.

Right, mate. You post a reply on a thread in a forum, and just 6+ hrs later you indignantly ask why there hasn't been a response yet!!!

To take this one step further... why have my suggestions for the PuppyLinux FAQ gone ignored? I thought public governance and giving everyone a 'seat at the table' was what someone wanted. Why are you not letting me have a seat at the table you run? Can you say Hypocritical?
You're shouting that someone didnt respond to your questions within 6 hours... while you ignore comments on your work that have been made multiple times and you continue to ignore them. Can you say Hypocritical?

[jonyo]

and i say again users are the foundation of a distro

Self-delusion is pulling in your stomach when you step on the scales.

... and I'm not really fat! Thanks. Now I feel a lot better!

this strikes me as someone who understands the significance of a user-base
http://puppylinuxnews.org/home/p_9/[quote]Puppy Linux Mission Statement (Barry Kauler):

Puppy will easily install to USB, Zip or hard drive media
Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes
Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies
Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast
Puppy will have all the applications needed for daily use
Puppy will just work, no hassles
Puppy will breathe new life into old PCs
[/quote] in particular
Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies
Puppy will just work, no hassles

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
Another perspective...
As a musician, amongst other things, I have had to deal with many "Band" situations...The similarity cannot be ignored...
Everyone wants to decide what we play, what we play it with, and where we play it.. But it always comes down to the ONE guy who ACTUALLY takes the time to learn the new song, to set up the new equipment, to book the gig..
All fun and partying right...Except someone has to make sure the equipment gets loaded, the tab gets paid, and the band gets paid...
Sure, big time bands have a Manager, who takes care of all of that...
But we are not a professional band, cause we dont get paid..
So one of us has to do it...We used to have a guy that did it all...
Now we have to rotate...
If you dont like the way the current guy is doing it...well....

Learn the song, show the rest of the band how it goes...
Dig out the new equipment, and RTFM, learn how it works, and show the rest.. If they like it...cool...if not, well....
You wanna be Jimmy Page, you gotta strap on that Les Paul, learn how to play it, and be creative..
But no fan would tell Jimmy what, or how, to play...
Just be glad for what they were given....

And Puppy is the only band where you, as a fan, can start another band, and still use the original bands equipment....They will even help you set up, write songs, whatever... And you can even call your band Fred Zepplin..And they will still help you....

But if you cant play.....shut up and listen....

Puppy will just work, no hassles

Not if you let the crowd run the mixing board.....

[jonyo]

But if you cant play.....shut up and listen....

i doubt you speak for puppy linux and if you do, get lost

[WhoDo]

this strikes me as someone who understands the significance of a user-base
http://puppylinuxnews.org/home/p_9/...[snip]... in particular
Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies
Puppy will just work, no hassles

... and immediately following your hand-picked quote comes this little gem:

How is Puppy organised?

It depends on what is trying to be achieved
Version 4.2 of Puppy is run by project leader Warren Willson
Individual projects are run by individuals or a core cell of individuals
Because Puppy is both flexible and fast, we can set up an organization as required for a given aim

Now tell me you didn't just ignore that bit, jonyo?

BTW, the author of that page is raffy, former titular head of the now defunct Puppy Linux Foundation; and he's still going strong behind the scenes! Go raffy!

It is a mistake to equate "linux newbies" with ordinary users and especially with extraordinary USERS. The latter usually know enough to make specific demands without bothering to learn enough to make the changes for themselves, or others. I rest my case, Yer Honar!

[WhoDo]

But if you cant play.....shut up and listen....

i doubt you speak for puppy linux and if you do, get lost

Says who? Are you presuming to speak for everyone else who doesn't speak for puppy linux? That would include me, wouldn't it? You don't speak for me!

BTW, personally I never did "get lost" ... I just couldn't understand all that stuff about weird experimental laboratories and killer castaways! Evangaline Lilly was HOT though!

[jonyo]

everyone has a voice here and i didn't say "we"
as an individual that's how i respond to take it or leave it types like you

[jonyo]

mission statement is one thing and of prime importance coming directly from BK, didn't even look at your stuff and it is another matter