Mark
The Puppy Logo...
Nicely done. I've added it to www.puppyfiles.us too.
An Open Letter to David May re: Puppy Logo
Hello David, and other Puppy Lovers,
First off, Congatulations on having your Puppy Logo so well accepted by the Puppy Community. You obviously put a lot of work into it, and obviously have a great liking for Puppy Linux, and are willing to use your artistic talents to contribute in a positive way to the Puppy Linux community. I applaud you for that.
However, being rather artistically inclined, and being a horrible perfectionist to boot, I have a problem with the Logo as it currently looks. I would like to respectfully submit to you the reasons why I say that, and offer some suggestions for some small changes that I think would make a huge positive difference in the overall impact of the Logo.
My problem is this: The entire area of the eye is black - even the area toward the outer edges which would normally be white or off-white in any living mammal. This gives the eyes an injured appearance, as if the whites were filled with dark blood, Additionally, in many horrror films, the eyes of "evil" creatures are often depicted as being completely black, with no iris and pupil at all. Having the eyes be all black like this creates a cold, emotionless, even chilling effect in the overall facial expression. The effect of the all-black eye in this case is one of alieness.
To illustrate what I mean, I have included a couple of versions of your logo with different eyes. In both, I just added the whites, and adjusted the position of the light reflection to make it seem more like the eyes are looking straight at you,
In one, I positioned the circular portion of the eye closer to the top lid, which results in a somewhat sadder, more thoughtful expression, and in the other I positioned the circular portion of the eye peeking over the bottom lid, which results in a somewhat happier, more bright-eyed expression.
I've included these two versions just to illustrate my point, and do not intend to try to have either of these versions take the place of yours. Plus, I don't think either of my versions is good enough for a final product either; neither quite captures the expression I'd like to see in your final version. I respect that this logo is your baby, and I'm not trying to steal any credit, or have either of my versions replace yours.
However, with respect for your efforts so far, which I can see have been considerable, I would strongly urge you to experiment a bit further with depicting the eyes using whites, and pupils and irises, and also to try out some variations on the shape of the lid outlines, and the position of the circular portion of the eye within, and with placement of the reflection spot. These features are key to communicating emotion in a visual representation of any creature's eyes. Even slight variations in the placement of the circular potion of the eye within the outline of the lids can have a HUGE effect on the result. Additionally, even small variations in the angle of the upper and lower eyelid lines can also have a HUGE effect on the resulting expression.
I'd like to urge your to study some puppy photos on Google Images, or anywhere else you can find them - Find some Puppy eyes that you really LOVE, then use what you see in those eyes to finesse this logo.
In my humble opinion, some additional experimentation on your part could very likely result in a far warmer, friendlier, and more natural look for this otherwise very good Puppy logo. Since this logo could very well be with us for a long time to come, I think the extra effort would be well worth your while.
I hope this communication will be received in the spirit of constructive criticism in which it is offered, and that it will result in an improved version of the Logo that has more expressive, friendly, and warm, loving Puppy-eyes.
Respectfully,
kcin
First off, Congatulations on having your Puppy Logo so well accepted by the Puppy Community. You obviously put a lot of work into it, and obviously have a great liking for Puppy Linux, and are willing to use your artistic talents to contribute in a positive way to the Puppy Linux community. I applaud you for that.
However, being rather artistically inclined, and being a horrible perfectionist to boot, I have a problem with the Logo as it currently looks. I would like to respectfully submit to you the reasons why I say that, and offer some suggestions for some small changes that I think would make a huge positive difference in the overall impact of the Logo.
My problem is this: The entire area of the eye is black - even the area toward the outer edges which would normally be white or off-white in any living mammal. This gives the eyes an injured appearance, as if the whites were filled with dark blood, Additionally, in many horrror films, the eyes of "evil" creatures are often depicted as being completely black, with no iris and pupil at all. Having the eyes be all black like this creates a cold, emotionless, even chilling effect in the overall facial expression. The effect of the all-black eye in this case is one of alieness.
To illustrate what I mean, I have included a couple of versions of your logo with different eyes. In both, I just added the whites, and adjusted the position of the light reflection to make it seem more like the eyes are looking straight at you,
In one, I positioned the circular portion of the eye closer to the top lid, which results in a somewhat sadder, more thoughtful expression, and in the other I positioned the circular portion of the eye peeking over the bottom lid, which results in a somewhat happier, more bright-eyed expression.
I've included these two versions just to illustrate my point, and do not intend to try to have either of these versions take the place of yours. Plus, I don't think either of my versions is good enough for a final product either; neither quite captures the expression I'd like to see in your final version. I respect that this logo is your baby, and I'm not trying to steal any credit, or have either of my versions replace yours.
However, with respect for your efforts so far, which I can see have been considerable, I would strongly urge you to experiment a bit further with depicting the eyes using whites, and pupils and irises, and also to try out some variations on the shape of the lid outlines, and the position of the circular portion of the eye within, and with placement of the reflection spot. These features are key to communicating emotion in a visual representation of any creature's eyes. Even slight variations in the placement of the circular potion of the eye within the outline of the lids can have a HUGE effect on the result. Additionally, even small variations in the angle of the upper and lower eyelid lines can also have a HUGE effect on the resulting expression.
I'd like to urge your to study some puppy photos on Google Images, or anywhere else you can find them - Find some Puppy eyes that you really LOVE, then use what you see in those eyes to finesse this logo.
In my humble opinion, some additional experimentation on your part could very likely result in a far warmer, friendlier, and more natural look for this otherwise very good Puppy logo. Since this logo could very well be with us for a long time to come, I think the extra effort would be well worth your while.
I hope this communication will be received in the spirit of constructive criticism in which it is offered, and that it will result in an improved version of the Logo that has more expressive, friendly, and warm, loving Puppy-eyes.
Respectfully,
kcin
- Attachments
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- PupLogoCompareEyes.jpg
- How much difference the eyes can make...
- (18.65 KiB) Downloaded 1560 times
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Pizzasgood
- Posts: 6183
- Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
- Location: Knoxville, TN, USA
The black eyes look sad, and the white eyes look scary. 
Solution: Less white, and more offwhitish. Maybe light brown. Or lighter brown, but still dark. Since it's small, a little white goes a long way. In fact, too far. Instead, suggest that it has white. Keep in mind that though they should be white/offwhitish, they are being antialiased with the black and brown, and so should look halfway between.
In addition to what kcin mentioned, it might give them a bit more form.
Solution: Less white, and more offwhitish. Maybe light brown. Or lighter brown, but still dark. Since it's small, a little white goes a long way. In fact, too far. Instead, suggest that it has white. Keep in mind that though they should be white/offwhitish, they are being antialiased with the black and brown, and so should look halfway between.
In addition to what kcin mentioned, it might give them a bit more form.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]
That is probably due to the circular portion being smaller, since all I did was work with the existinng area. Bigger eyes are characteristic of younger creatures, so you are correct, to properly add the whites, the whole eyes must be made larger to compensate and preserve the more youthful appearance. This was a good observation, and one I neglected to mention before.MU wrote:Oh,I prefer the black eyes.
Looks like a puppy-doll.
With the white eyes, it looks too adult I think.
Mark
Another good observation Pizzasgood. - In fact, I did do quite a bit of anti-aliasing, but since I was working on a blow-up, when it was shrunk down it turned out to be not enough.Pizzasgood wrote:The black eyes look sad, and the white eyes look scary. Wink
Solution: Less white, and more offwhitish. Maybe light brown. Or lighter brown, but still dark. Since it's small, a little white goes a long way. In fact, too far. Instead, suggest that it has white. Keep in mind that though they should be white/offwhitish, they are being antialiased with the black and brown, and so should look halfway between.
In addition to what kcin mentioned, it might give them a bit more form.
Also, keep in mind, my versions were never meant to be final versions, or to compete in any way, so I knocked them out quickly. I only wanted to illustrate my point, and hopefully engender a desire in Dave to perfect his creation.
Best Regards,
kcin
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Pizzasgood
- Posts: 6183
- Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
- Location: Knoxville, TN, USA
I looked again, and now it's not so scary. It just seems like there's a little more white than is needed. Maybe if the eyes were a hair bigger and the whites were slightly darker/tanner.
How it is, it almost looks like he's scared. If he had a big comic grin he'd look excited. That's what a little too much white will do. Otherwise I do like it. After looking at the one with whites, the other one looks even more sad and empty.
Maybe the corners of the eyes stick out too far? Maybe not? I don't know.
Hmm... the eyes also look sort of pointy with the sparkle. Like maybe it's too sharp.
________
The above are the criticisms of someone looking and thinking too hard, and who is actively trying to find something wrong (like a beta tester, not a nag)
I also know that that's just a test. I'm just trying to provide thoughts before david makes an alteration so he has some opinions before hand.
How it is, it almost looks like he's scared. If he had a big comic grin he'd look excited. That's what a little too much white will do. Otherwise I do like it. After looking at the one with whites, the other one looks even more sad and empty.
Maybe the corners of the eyes stick out too far? Maybe not? I don't know.
Hmm... the eyes also look sort of pointy with the sparkle. Like maybe it's too sharp.
________
The above are the criticisms of someone looking and thinking too hard, and who is actively trying to find something wrong (like a beta tester, not a nag)
I also know that that's just a test. I'm just trying to provide thoughts before david makes an alteration so he has some opinions before hand.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]
Pizzasgood wrote:The black eyes look sad, and the white eyes look scary.
exactly what I thought. I think happyness and excitement would be nicer. Sadly I have zero talent and when I draw a puppy it ends up looking like the scary dog from the invader zim tv show. in fact most things I draw end up looking like it. or worse.- Attachments
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- invaderzim_spookydog.jpg
- he is one scary chihuahua (and has a lobotomy scar)
- (14.54 KiB) Downloaded 1779 times
kcin, thanks for the kind remarks and the constructive criticism. Both are very welcome and I do not take offense to them.
Without trying to sound too defensive, I would like to reassure you that the current look of the eyes was a conscious decision on my part.
From the beginning on, my goal was to make a simple logo with simple shapes (so the logo would work in a variety of sizes). A puppy that would have cartoony qualities that would underline its age (puppy). At the same time, I was trying to imitate the look of eyes you get from stuffed animals (button eyes) - in fact, that's how the whole logo started out, a mix of Barry's picture and a stuffed animal. At first, they were plain circular eyes. I noticed that they didn't quite have "cute" or "puppy" enough qualities to me, so I decided to deform the shape of the eyes a bit, without making them too complex. In my view the final shape is successful in expressing "puppy"-like qualities.
I certainly do not agree with you that the puppy appear emotionless and cold with all-black eyes. Take these pictures for example: http://www.areyougame.com/images/items/CA11383.jpg or http://www.gallica.us/the%20boys/puppy%203%20006.jpg. Emotionless and cold? Not to me.
No offense, but in my opinion, the point you were illustrating does not make the puppy look more "puppy"-like, in all its meanings, than my version. I think the detail adds age (as was mentioned already) and it might lead to complications when you have the image resized to a very small format, were the detail becomes obsolete. That's the reason I didn't add any other detail as well, such as whiskers, wrinkles or other features. In short, the differences between the two do not warrant any alterations - to me.
I realize this is just my opinion (I think), and if it is the general consensus that this detail should be added, then I would be happy to do so, even if I disagree with it or think it is not necessary.
I hope I didn't come across snappy, as I was just trying to explain my choices. The suggestion you made did cross my mind, but I consciously decided against it for the above mentioned reasons.
Also, I'm not saying the logo is perfect. Could it be better? Probably, but not with the suggestion that was made... at least not in my view. I think playing with the general shape of the eye, or creating overly disproportinate versions of the eyes (as has been suggested) may be venues to explore.
Thanks for your detailed and valuable input. I will experiment.
Also respectfully,
David
Without trying to sound too defensive, I would like to reassure you that the current look of the eyes was a conscious decision on my part.
From the beginning on, my goal was to make a simple logo with simple shapes (so the logo would work in a variety of sizes). A puppy that would have cartoony qualities that would underline its age (puppy). At the same time, I was trying to imitate the look of eyes you get from stuffed animals (button eyes) - in fact, that's how the whole logo started out, a mix of Barry's picture and a stuffed animal. At first, they were plain circular eyes. I noticed that they didn't quite have "cute" or "puppy" enough qualities to me, so I decided to deform the shape of the eyes a bit, without making them too complex. In my view the final shape is successful in expressing "puppy"-like qualities.
I certainly do not agree with you that the puppy appear emotionless and cold with all-black eyes. Take these pictures for example: http://www.areyougame.com/images/items/CA11383.jpg or http://www.gallica.us/the%20boys/puppy%203%20006.jpg. Emotionless and cold? Not to me.
No offense, but in my opinion, the point you were illustrating does not make the puppy look more "puppy"-like, in all its meanings, than my version. I think the detail adds age (as was mentioned already) and it might lead to complications when you have the image resized to a very small format, were the detail becomes obsolete. That's the reason I didn't add any other detail as well, such as whiskers, wrinkles or other features. In short, the differences between the two do not warrant any alterations - to me.
I realize this is just my opinion (I think), and if it is the general consensus that this detail should be added, then I would be happy to do so, even if I disagree with it or think it is not necessary.
I hope I didn't come across snappy, as I was just trying to explain my choices. The suggestion you made did cross my mind, but I consciously decided against it for the above mentioned reasons.
Also, I'm not saying the logo is perfect. Could it be better? Probably, but not with the suggestion that was made... at least not in my view. I think playing with the general shape of the eye, or creating overly disproportinate versions of the eyes (as has been suggested) may be venues to explore.
Thanks for your detailed and valuable input. I will experiment.
Also respectfully,
David
Heh, heh. Hey deshlab, I really like your InvaderZim_SpookyPup... Reminded me of another crazy chihuahua pic I have (see below)deshlab wrote:Pizzasgood wrote:The black eyes look sad, and the white eyes look scary.
I think there may be a place somehwere in the Puppyverse for pix like these... Who knows? Perhaps there's a bizarre Puplet being put together at this very moment for which one of these would be a perfect fit as a logo...
Regards,
kcin
- Attachments
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- CombatChihuahua.jpg
- (6.03 KiB) Downloaded 1789 times
David,
That is exactly the kind of response I'd hoped for - You're a class act to take critiques of your work with such grace.
And I do respect your design decisions. I'll be looking forward to see if you decide to make any changes, whether it's whites of the eyes or something else.
Like nature itself, the artistic, representational possibilities are practically endless. And like "Love", I suppose, when you get an artistic creation just right, you'll just know it.
I think neither of the eyes I came up with worked very well, and I still think your original eyes don't quite fulfill the potential of this design. However, I have faith that if there is a perfect set of eyes for this logo, you'll find them, and I'm betting this logo will really come together when you do.
Best Regards,
kcin
That is exactly the kind of response I'd hoped for - You're a class act to take critiques of your work with such grace.
And I do respect your design decisions. I'll be looking forward to see if you decide to make any changes, whether it's whites of the eyes or something else.
Like nature itself, the artistic, representational possibilities are practically endless. And like "Love", I suppose, when you get an artistic creation just right, you'll just know it.
I think neither of the eyes I came up with worked very well, and I still think your original eyes don't quite fulfill the potential of this design. However, I have faith that if there is a perfect set of eyes for this logo, you'll find them, and I'm betting this logo will really come together when you do.
Best Regards,
kcin
kcin,
not sure if you were being sarcastic about me taking the critique with such grace. I just read over my response again, and it kind of did sound a bit angry - not my intent. In case you weren't being sarcastic, I appreciate your understanding and respect of my decisions.
I think it will be hard to please everyone with one logo to share. Each person has their own idea of the "perfect" puppy, even if the differences are slight. To be fair, however, if a good number of people really think that changes need to be made to reflect certain qualities better, I am certainly willing to do so. Basically, I'm in the quest to please as many people as possible.
I will post any changes as they are done.
not sure if you were being sarcastic about me taking the critique with such grace. I just read over my response again, and it kind of did sound a bit angry - not my intent. In case you weren't being sarcastic, I appreciate your understanding and respect of my decisions.
I think it will be hard to please everyone with one logo to share. Each person has their own idea of the "perfect" puppy, even if the differences are slight. To be fair, however, if a good number of people really think that changes need to be made to reflect certain qualities better, I am certainly willing to do so. Basically, I'm in the quest to please as many people as possible.
I will post any changes as they are done.
For people that have been trying to access my server for the logo pack or the grafpup iso, I have to offer my apologies. due to an overwhelming amount of traffic, my site has been locked. I was planning on upgrading the package anyway. I hope to have the site back up and running again soon. If anyone needs any of the files, please don't hesitate to ask
The grafpup iso is also available via http://dotpups.de/grafpup/ and ftp://puppyfiles.us/pub/releases/grafpup/
(Multiple mirror sites are always a good idea when they are possible.)
(Multiple mirror sites are always a good idea when they are possible.)
Thanks so much Mark.MU wrote:Puppian, please look here, I think I could get the edges softer using the Gimp. Maybe you like to use this one.
Mark
I've put it there
[url=http://puppylinux.org]Puppylinux.org - Community home page of Puppy Linux[/url] hosted by Barry (creator of Puppy), created and maintained by the [url=http://puppylinux.org/user/readarticle.php?article_id=8]Puppy Linux Foundation[/url] since 2005
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BarryK
- Puppy Master
- Posts: 9392
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- Location: Perth, Western Australia
- Contact:
Just a thought:
I recently watched a program on TV about how the most successful theatre plays were promoted, like "Cats" and "Les Miserables". One comment stuck right out at me -- the promoter said that the logos were designed without any text deliberately.
The Les Miserables logo is a little girl, very distinctive, and it is the image itself that people associate with the play.
I don't know if I explained that very well, but anyway, we could apply the principle to Puppy.
A distinctive logo on its own, no text, to become the official logo for Puppy. David has versions of the logo without text.
Puppy will become so popular that everyone will know the little doggy with the flower means Puppy Linux.
I recently watched a program on TV about how the most successful theatre plays were promoted, like "Cats" and "Les Miserables". One comment stuck right out at me -- the promoter said that the logos were designed without any text deliberately.
The Les Miserables logo is a little girl, very distinctive, and it is the image itself that people associate with the play.
I don't know if I explained that very well, but anyway, we could apply the principle to Puppy.
A distinctive logo on its own, no text, to become the official logo for Puppy. David has versions of the logo without text.
Puppy will become so popular that everyone will know the little doggy with the flower means Puppy Linux.
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Lobster
- Official Crustacean
- Posts: 15522
- Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
- Location: Paradox Realm
- Contact:
Olive Branch - Peace
What Barry says makes sense. I would suggest a break between the leaf and ear - to make the leaf of the flower more distinct.
At this point we also need to consider the flower - what is it?
Flowers have a language (sorry they are in caps):
DOG ROSE - Pleasure and Pain
GLADIOLI - Generosity, I'm sincere, Flower of the gladiators
- this is a frisky choice, native to Oz
LARKSPUR - Levity, An Open Heart, Lightness
OLIVE BRANCH - Peace
ORCHID (CATTLEYA) - Mature Charm
POPPY (YELLOW ) - Success - that is what the flower looks like to me - it is sometimes known as a Welsh Poppy
ROSEBUD (RED) - Pure & Lovely
TURNIP - Charity
If we put the logo on any page the words Puppy Linux will always be there in some form (or implicit) so are not required
Regarding the eyes. Sunglasses or not? I vote for bigger black eyes.