Establishing a formal community

Message

#91 Post by **Pizzasgood** » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 01:46

Just to clarify what I think HairyWill's point was: Barry gave you permission, for now. Doesn't mean it has to stay that way. If for some reason he decided to give the reigns to somebody else, there is little you could do but wail and gnash your teeth.

Now, please get this next point through your head: The whole idea here is that no single person is in charge, and nobody is "assigned" or "unassigned" to a task.

No, you wouldn't get to make all the decisions. But unless I misunderstand you, you don't want to make them all anyways. You want to run it all by the community first. This would be the same thing. (And yes, IMHO the coop would be a way for decisions affecting Puppy, but mainly the large decisions. Smaller stuff could be handled informally, as I described earlier.)

With no single person in charge, we don't have to worry if they turn evil, or get eaten, etc, and we don't have to worry about taking Puppy away from them.

Everybody can work on it (as long as they meet good enough standards - don't want Puppy getting sloppy). And they can work on it for as long as they want.

The community itself will have a say over things. But that is as it should be!

@Caneri: Please don't feel like we're demanding anything of you. If it turns out you can't, or would rather not, do the SVN, we can set it up elsewhere. And we don't need it immediately. It would be nice to have it up and running by 4.3 though, I think.

Also, with respect to the connections things, it was only the ban part that bothered me. If that's what it takes to keep it up, then go for it. I just wanted to make sure that you took that other stuff into account, in case you hadn't thought about them. One other aspect I missed was wireless access points, hotel rooms, etc. Just food for thought. But I see no real problems with simply blocking extra connections, nor temporarily banning IPs that make excessive attempts to connect.

I plan to play around with GIT and SVN with the full Unleashed tree in the very near future. Possibly tomorrow. I want to see if I can set up some test repositories on my second computer, then use tor on my main computer to connect to it. That way it will route my connection around the web to give me speeds comparable to what I'd have if it was a remote box, instead of right under my bed.

I suspect that in general, the SVN/GIT repository will not get very much use.

@Tombh: good stuff.

#92 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 01:57

alienjeff wrote:
ttuuxxx wrote:P.s sometimes when I read what I actually type, I laugh really hard
ttuuxxx
We laugh, too, ttuuxxx ... but for different reasons than you do.

Always count on you to find an opportunity to have a dig at someone. Your like a snake hiding in the bushes, just waiting to strike given the opportunity.
ttuuxxx

#93 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 02:26

Pizzasgood wrote:Just to clarify what I think HairyWill's point was: Barry gave you permission, for now. Doesn't mean it has to stay that way. If for some reason he decided to give the reigns to somebody else, there is little you could do but wail and gnash your teeth.

Now, please get this next point through your head: The whole idea here is that no single person is in charge, and nobody is "assigned" or "unassigned" to a task.

No, you wouldn't get to make all the decisions. But unless I misunderstand you, you don't want to make them all anyways. You want to run it all by the community first. This would be the same thing. (And yes, IMHO the coop would be a way for decisions affecting Puppy, but mainly the large decisions. Smaller stuff could be handled informally, as I described earlier.)

With no single person in charge, we don't have to worry if they turn evil, or get eaten, etc, and we don't have to worry about taking Puppy away from them.

Everybody can work on it (as long as they meet good enough standards - don't want Puppy getting sloppy). And they can work on it for as long as they want.

The community itself will have a say over things. But that is as it should be!

Well the last thing I am is evil, nobody really has joined 5..0 yet,But its still really early. so I'm starting off by myself. So really I have nobody to answer to other than the people who respond to this thread http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 77#240977. If you want to join I would be more than happy, to discuss issues with you. But really if I have to ask for every little thing I do and how I do it, its a bit drawn-out. Actually more than a bit. I'm just discussing idea's with a few developers and then I report my findings, and as for Barry handing it over to someone else, Well I have my own ibiblio account http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... s/ttuuxxx/ and since I don't have keys to Barry's account, I'll use mine, now that would be hard to take away and give to somebody else.

like I said before, Once I start it today, I'm not looking back. and the people I answer to is Barry and anyone who wants to a take a positive part/role in 5.0. I'm sick of the "what could be" red tape already, enough with the speculation and time for some momentum.
ttuuxxx

#94 Post by **Pizzasgood** » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 02:44

Should Barry get eaten by a croc tomorrow, nobody has the right to release an official version. This is an ideal time to convert puppy to a shared development model but he seems to be avoiding the opportunity.

Puppy is Barry's brainchild. Key-word: child. I don't have a kid of my own, but I do have two cats. Even if I promised somebody in advance that I was going to give them Ms. Kitty, when it came time to do it, I would be very slow and reluctant, and stressed and pained.

Give him time.

But really if I have to ask for every little thing I do and how I do it, its a bit drawn-out.

My model doesn't involve asking for every little thing. Big things would need it, but not little things. Little things would only need asking if somebody takes issue with them. In general, they will not.

and as for Barry handing it over to someone else, Well I have my own ibiblio account http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... s/ttuuxxx/ and since I don't have keys to Barry's account, I'll use mine, now that would be hard to take away and give to somebody else.

Nobody can take away the tools to build a custom Puppy. That is the whole point of open source. However, if Barry maintains ownership of the name, he can take away the privilege of calling your creation "Puppy", and then sue you if you continue using it.

If you really don't care about the official Puppy name, then you have nothing to worry about, neither from Barry nor the coop and other ideas. In the hypothetical situation where you were kicked out, just change the name and roll on.

Assuming everybody else followed you.

Similarly, even if you had the official name, nobody would have to bother with you. We could all decide to just go elsewhere and produce our own Doggy Linux. You'd be left with the name, but little else.

This obviously applies as much to the Coop idea as it does to your more dictatorship-esq method. Thus why we're discussing, so that we can find a solution that is least likely to suffer from people dropping it and going elsewhere.

Meanwhile, it is good that people are continuing Puppy development regardless. This community structure thing is important, but it isn't an immediate thing. It can be implemented over time.

But to have this become a long term, and community driven project, it is a necessary eventuality.

alienjeff · #95 Post by **alienjeff** » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 03:02

Pizzasgood wrote:Everybody can work on it (as long as they meet good enough standards - don't want Puppy getting sloppy).

An example of sloppy:

I had reported this fixed after 4.1beta, however neglected to verify that it was actually fixed.

Reference: I dare you!

#96 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Sat 18 Oct 2008, 03:05

Pizzasgood wrote:
Should Barry get eaten by a croc tomorrow, nobody has the right to release an official version. This is an ideal time to convert puppy to a shared development model but he seems to be avoiding the opportunity.
Puppy is Barry's brainchild. Key-word: child. I don't have a kid of my own, but I do have two cats. Even if I promised somebody in advance that I was going to give them Ms. Kitty, when it came time to do it, I would be very slow and reluctant, and stressed and pained.

Give him time.

But really if I have to ask for every little thing I do and how I do it, its a bit drawn-out.
My model doesn't involve asking for every little thing. Big things would need it, but not little things. Little things would only need asking if somebody takes issue with them. In general, they will not.

and as for Barry handing it over to someone else, Well I have my own ibiblio account http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... s/ttuuxxx/ and since I don't have keys to Barry's account, I'll use mine, now that would be hard to take away and give to somebody else.
Nobody can take away the tools to build a custom Puppy. That is the whole point of open source. However, if Barry maintains ownership of the name, he can take away the privilege of calling your creation "Puppy", and then sue you if you continue using it.

If you really don't care about the official Puppy name, then you have nothing to worry about, neither from Barry nor the coop and other ideas. In the hypothetical situation where you were kicked out, just change the name and roll on.

Assuming everybody else followed you.

Similarly, even if you had the official name, nobody would have to bother with you. We could all decide to just go elsewhere and produce our own Doggy Linux. You'd be left with the name, but little else.

This obviously applies as much to the Coop idea as it does to your more dictatorship-esq method. Thus why we're discussing, so that we can find a solution that is least likely to suffer from people dropping it and going elsewhere.

Meanwhile, it is good that people are continuing Puppy development regardless. This community structure thing is important, but it isn't an immediate thing. It can be implemented over time.

But to have this become a long term, and community driven project, it is a necessary eventuality.

Hey I would support a coop if
Barry relinquish his powers to it, eg puppy name - copyrights etc, Software server. Then the coop would have some power.
if you offered a contract that I could remain coordinator of puppy 5.0 until I get bored with it or do something evil against the "Puppy Linux", so that I have some sort of security for my efforts, I don't like hanging from a shoe string!!.
If you return donations to Barry and Eric who pay the most money for puppy.
And then I would go along with it. But the part with Barry could take a long time. Since this is really just a trial for him, he could change his mind and get back into the drivers seat once again, who knows he might just miss it.
ttuuxxx

raffy · #97 Post by **raffy** » Sun 19 Oct 2008, 02:48

Ttuuxxx, you cant be worried too much with getting a secure place in the future organization, because (1) you can do independent development work (you've mentioned having an ibiblio account for this); (2) you can start an organization in your state/country for supporting Puppy Linux (and later, several organizations can enter into agreements to form a bigger organization).

For example, you've already hit a nerve among users with FirePup. If you build a "fat-free" puplet with FirePup and all its useful extensions, plus possibly the Puppy desktop, you'll have a very useful puplet to support.

#98 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Sun 19 Oct 2008, 09:06

raffy wrote:Ttuuxxx, you cant be worried too much with getting a secure place in the future organization, because (1) you can do independent development work (you've mentioned having an ibiblio account for this); (2) you can start an organization in your state/country for supporting Puppy Linux (and later, several organizations can enter into agreements to form a bigger organization).

For example, you've already hit a nerve among users with FirePup. If you build a "fat-free" puplet with FirePup and all its useful extensions, plus possibly the Puppy desktop, you'll have a very useful puplet to support.

For now I'll just focus on 4.2 & 5.0 like today I compiled a small version of gimp based on 2.0.5 it was 3.9 MB pet but I'm going to try to compile it even smaller and remove the filters, Really When I use gimp, I only need the basic application tools and layers, I don't need special effects etc, I can do it better from scratch. So i'm going to try to get it down to 3mb or less pet.
stuff like that will be handy for 5.0.
I might try doing it to the latest one and have a full version with extras in the repo and Lite-Gimp version by default.
same with inkscape. I'm also wroking on a update Firepup, Plus a user has asked me to make him a icewm theme for his new puplet to be released.

ttuuxxx

#99 Post by **Pizzasgood** » Mon 20 Oct 2008, 00:23

Just confirming: To avoid checking out the entire Unleashed tree with SVN, we will be able to download the compressed packages from a package server, then extract them into the same layout, and then just run svn checkout --force <url> <path> over that, followed by svn revert -R <path> to have it syncronize the working directory with the server. Overall, that should use much less bandwidth from the SVN server, and also a good bit less total bandwidth since the packages would be compressed.

tombh · #100 Post by **tombh** » Tue 21 Oct 2008, 17:29

Brian, from the CDA, did send me the preliminary unincorported rules, but as he said they're very employee focussed, as in stuff like, "you will be allowed 25 days holiday per year", blimey! Not exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of! But as Brian pointed out we basically work with the CDA to draft the preliminary rules to our liking.

So I thought it best to ask for something a bit more tangible like the basic Coop rules that underlie all the various ways of organising (ie incorported, unincorporated, etc). Again, I'll post them when I get them.

Pizzasgood wrote:Puppy is Barry's brainchild. Key-word: child. I don't have a kid of my own, but I do have two cats. Even if I promised somebody in advance that I was going to give them Ms. Kitty, when it came time to do it, I would be very slow and reluctant, and stressed and pained.

Give him time.

Well put Pizzasgood.

cb88 · #101 Post by **cb88** » Tue 21 Oct 2008, 20:33

pizzasgood... a script 'update' could be placed in the svn to reduce confusion with people useing different options and messing up thier checkout

svn only updates modified files anyway

raffy · #102 Post by **raffy** » Thu 23 Oct 2008, 01:41

FYI, this is a related thread (I've linked to tombh's post above):
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=34729

Caneri · #103 Post by **Caneri** » Fri 31 Oct 2008, 03:30

Well it seems we are losing Tom for a bit. All my best to that pirate and my friend. Aye me hearties, the swab is a good hand to sail with!

I still wish to discuss the co-op or "entity" to handle the behind the scenes stuff needed for Puppy to grow.

Things like a common donation button across web sites and a group to handle legal, server decisions, and anything that does NOT include development trends, but the base of a sustainable core to run into the future including a treasurer to handle the small amounts of cash that will be generated.

@PG

I'm still in the learning stage...what we can do with the new servers is still on the table and half eaten. It may well be ok to run SVN, torrents and a full repo but it still needs a GOOD Apache admin that has time to do setups and day to day management.

My thinking is to separate the repo from the main OS, also the SVN and all other access, but the devil is in the details on this one for sure.

To honour Tom I wish to forge ahead with his idea and try to make it work. Tom was a major influence for .org and it became a success..thus I will try to continue with Tom's start with regards to the co-op entity.

Eric

#104 Post by **Pizzasgood** » Fri 31 Oct 2008, 16:23

Cool. I'll play around with my test server this weekend to get a better idea of how it will work at the scale we're talking about. And I want to also do it with GIT, and compare the numbers, on both ends (since GIT stores all the revisions locally also, making the client end somewhat larger). My gut says SVN would be best.

The SVN stuff is kind of off topic here. Since we're finally making some progress with it, I'll start a new thread on it later tonight/tomorrow when I have my test server going. Once we know how we're going to set it up, we can start putting it up on the real server.

Re coop: I do believe that in the long run, we will be best served by a semi-structured system than by anarchy. It's definitely something we'll have to slowly ease our way into. I think that as we start rolling we'll probably naturally slide that way anyways.

I'm not too worried about it. Trial and error isn't the most efficient algorithm, but it works.

Aitch · #105 Post by **Aitch** » Wed 05 Nov 2008, 17:12

Well it seems we are losing Tom for a bit

Is there a crack somewhere where communication is occuring invisibly?

I'm not too worried about it. Trial and error isn't the most efficient algorithm, but it works.

2nd that - much better than all that panic stuff

If Obama hadn't got there first, PG, you'd make a good President

Good Luck, anyways

Aitch:)

Edited:
@Eric, found the crack, been away for awhile avoiding trollisms
@Tombh: Good Luck, mate, I'll post you every now & then - thanks for all you've done

alienjeff · #106 Post by **alienjeff** » Wed 05 Nov 2008, 18:59

Aitch wrote:If Obama hadn't got there first...

He isn't "there" yet. He's President Elect and still has to run the gauntlet to make it to the podium on Inauguration Day.

Smart money says FAIL and the military band will be serenading President Biden with Hail To The Chief.

...PG, you'd make a good President

They both have about the same experience for that position, ie. NONE, though PG doesn't meet the age requirement.

Caneri · #107 Post by **Caneri** » Wed 05 Nov 2008, 19:02

Hi Aitch,

nope nothing invisible...look here.

Maybe you missed it

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=35028

Eric

raffy · #108 Post by **raffy** » Thu 06 Nov 2008, 03:41

Caneri wrote: I will try to continue with Tom's start with regards to the co-op entity

Good idea. Is it not Quebec that's strong in coops? If you are in or nearby, you'll easily catch the wind.

Add: Thanks to technosaurus' link to egroupware, I came across this constitution (could be useful).

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Establishing a formal community

security

Re: security

thoughts about structure

coop, constitution