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Posted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 23:37
by Béèm
don570, alphanumeric is a-z,0-9.
For simplicity, a user should not be allowed to use special/accented characters.
reply
Posted: Wed 10 Nov 2010, 23:56
by don570
For simplicity, a user should not be allowed to use special/accented characters.
With the current Barry Kauler method of inputing characters for a password, accented characters can be used . If you test this like I recently did,
Barry uses the console mode totally, for forming the password and
then inputing the password at bootup. That's a sneaky way of doing it.
Many users are taping on their keyboard thinking that they are using
accented characters, not knowing that in the console mode only ascii characters
can be used. Check it out for yourself and you will see.
[/code]
Posted: Thu 11 Nov 2010, 13:23
by Béèm
I believe you as I don't use encrypted save files and it is sneaky indeed.
mistake when azerty keyboard user in Germany
Posted: Fri 12 Nov 2010, 01:25
by don570
In my previous proposal that I submitted yesterday, I made a dumb
mistake. I forgot the situation when an Azerty keyboard user is traveling
to Germany (not an infrequent occurrence)
...but I think I have a good solution to this problem
I propose to restrict the Azerty Keyboard user to entering the following
characters when he makes his password
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxy 0123456789
In other words, don't allow Azerty keyboard user to use z in his password
The French don't use that character much anyway.
What my suggestion does is allow a simple interface to make the 'Alternate Password' for the Azerty keyboard user.
I showed that in my design that I submitted yesterday. I hope
you saw that design. Hopefully it wasn't too complex.
The Azerty keyboard user could travel abroad and
only need to know two passwords, his own and an alternate one.
Asian keyboard users
Posted: Fri 12 Nov 2010, 01:35
by don570
I've been thinking about the situation where the user
doesn't have QWERTY or AZERTY characters painted on his
keys. I think this is common in parts of Asia and even Russia.
For people who live in a country that doesn't
support QWERTY or AZERTY keyboards I think
that PupsaveconfigGUI could still be used effectively.
In chinese or Russian the interface would be something like this....
Code: Select all
My password is ____________ (fill in with a simple word)
Click 'Build'
While traveling abroad you may be required to use your Puppy
on a foreign computer, for instance when booting from a USB stick
on somebody else's computer.
Please note the following four passwords for use while traveling abroad
My normal password is XXXXXXXXXXXX
My password in German speaking countries is XXXXXXXXXXXX
My password in french speaking countries is XXXXXXXXXXXX
My password in the rest of world is XXXXXXXXXXXX
It doesn't seem too outrageously complex and most people would catch on.
__________________________________________________________
Re: Asian keyboard users
Posted: Fri 12 Nov 2010, 02:54
by shinobar
don570 wrote:I've been thinking about the situation where the user
doesn't have QWERTY or AZERTY characters painted on his
keys. I think this is common in parts of Asia and even Russia.
Wow! I have never had such an idea.
How about simply we do not support non-latain keyboards?
I have no idea how to convert 'йцукен' to 'qwerty' or 'Иван' to 'Bdfy'.
Posted: Fri 12 Nov 2010, 03:01
by Jim1911
Consider, having the script default to 2fs only if the frugal installation is on an ext2 partition. If it's on an ext3 or ext4 partition, it should default to 3fs.
Thanks,
Jim
Save file type
Posted: Fri 12 Nov 2010, 03:12
by shinobar
Jim1911 wrote:Consider, having the script default to 2fs only if the frugal installation is on an ext2 partition. If it's on an ext3 or ext4 partition, it should default to 3fs.
Thanks jim for the notice.
But I think the filesystem of the partition and that of the pupsave is independent.
Like the pupsave.2fs or pupsave.3fs can be on any kind of partition from ntfs/vat/ext2/ext3/ext4.
The only limitation is encrypted save-file must use ext2.
FILE TYPE
Previously, Puppy has only used 'ext2', now there is a choice.
Regarding power-failure, note that Puppy will do a f.s. check at next boot so ext2 can recover,
however journalled filesystems can recover even without a f.s. check.
If in doubt, just press ENTER to choose 'ext2', otherwise TAB down then ENTER...
ext2: Maximum storage space, encrypted save-file must use ext2.
ext3: Journalled f.s., safest if power failure etc.
By the way, do you think pupsave.3fs is safer than pupsave.2fs?
Re: Save file type
Posted: Fri 12 Nov 2010, 03:35
by Jim1911
shinobar wrote:By the way, do you think pupsave.3fs is safer than pupsave.2fs?
Definitely, I've had numerous crashes with 2fs save files, now there are no ext2 partitions on my computers, even in a save file. In any event, user needs to be able to select 3fs. Unfortunately, puppy has been unable to reliably create 4fs save files, so that option was eliminated by Barry from the text selection.
Cheers,
Jim
Posted: Fri 12 Nov 2010, 12:07
by shinobar
Attached 1st brief help text for pupsaveconfig.
It is simple text file, you can read after extracting.
If you have the mock up sample of pupsaveconfig, place it as /usr/share/doc/help/C/pupsaveconfig.txt.
As for the password, there describes:
PASSWORD
Be CAUTION the characters which Puppy recognize at boot stage can be different from those you are typing now:
At the boot stage, you will be asked the password. Puppy always assumes your keyboard is 'us-English' at boot unless 'pkeys' option specified.
See your keyboard. If the keytops at the row bellow '123456' shows 'Q'-'W'-'E'-'R'-'T'-'Y' from left to right, the alphanumeric characters maybe safe.
But the special characters like '-', '+' can be different positions. And note that the case is sensitive, 'a' and 'A' is not the same.
Be carefull if your Puppy is on the removable devices and you carry it to another PC.
If your keytops shows 'QWERTZ', 'AZERTY' or other than 'QUERTY', you have more problem.
If your keytops shows 'QWERTZ', 'z' and 'y' is swapped at the boot stage.
If your keytops shows 'AZERTY', 'a' and 'q', 'w' and 'z' swapped. moreover the numbers should lower case at the boot stage.
For example, if you type 'Jaque' here with 'AZERTY' key layout, you must type as the password at the boot stage 'Jqaue'!
Safest is to use only alphabet but avoid next characters 'a','q','w','y','z'. Never use non-english characters like 'ç', nor accented characters like 'é'.
If you are using non-latin keyboards, there may be no hope as for the password.
Again, unless you have a good reason to use encryption, it is recommended to choose 'NORMAL'
Like to here your suggestion.
warning message
Posted: Sat 13 Nov 2010, 20:58
by don570
I've come to the conclusion that the simplest way to
handle password encryption is just a simple warning
combined with a recommendation of a new password.
For example let's suppose that a French user has chosen
the password France33
He would be warned with the following message
Code: Select all
The password you have chosen cannot be used
to boot up your Puppy Linux installation on a keyboard
designed for Germans or Americans. Therefore a simpler
password with less characters is recommended but
it is not a necessity. We suggest that you change your
password from France33 to just Frnce.
This simpler password will allow you to boot up Puppy
Linux using other keyboard designs that are common
around the world. What do you want to do ?
Then finish off with some button choices.
Of course I am assuming that the user was quizzed
previously about what kind of keyboard that he is currently
using and has already gone through a procedure of inputing a
password from a limited set of characters i.e. no y and z allowed.
window for password users
Posted: Mon 15 Nov 2010, 22:43
by don570
If a user wants a password you will probably need to
ask what type of keyboard he is currently using,
Here's a design
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-18020fd3.html
For a user that doesn't have a compatible keyboard
(such as a Russian cyrillic keyboard), they can be
told to use the legacy method of inputing a password.
_________________________________________________
Posted: Wed 17 Nov 2010, 02:35
by noryb009
don570: that might work, but in a different way. What if: When a user logs in using their password, but it doesn't work, it adds to the error something like "or type blah if you have a different keyboard then normal" or something. When the user types blah, it asks what type of keyboard they are using, and tries to convert the password somehow.
inputing password at bootup
Posted: Thu 18 Nov 2010, 17:56
by don570
To noryb009
I believe that Shinobar will continue to use Barry Kauler's code
for inputing a password at bootup time.
Barry simply asks for the password over and over until you type
in the right one . The user is in the console mode so everything
must be in ASCII characters. But this is not explained to
the user at bootup time which is confusing people with
no technical training. In fact while you type in your password
the keystrokes aren't shown on your screen ( which is why I call
Barry 'sneaky'). I think Barrry did this deliberately.
Barry does give an explanation albeit too brief and only in English
when the user is composing his password.
Barry's procedure is totally in English so the big benefit
of PupsaveconfigGUI is that it can be localized to a huge
number of languages. It will be a nice feature for Puppy linux
to attract users in Asia, Africa...
An extra feature that PupsaveconfigGUI could have is the tranposing of
passwords from one keyboard type to another, but this adds complexity
to a program that needs to be simple and few Puppy users even use
a password from what I read on the forum. I still don't use a password
myself even though it only slows down the booting of the computer
a couple of seconds.
correction
Posted: Tue 23 Nov 2010, 21:47
by don570
I didn't draw the QWERTZ keyboard properly
Here's the proper diagram
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-f04464c2.html
I drew the M key in the wrong spot.
______________________________________
I am comming
Posted: Tue 23 Nov 2010, 23:41
by shinobar
Thanks don and to all.
I have to appologize i couldn't respond. I am busy now with refining the grub4dosconfig.
You know I am working on regarding easy setup of Puppy in 7 area.
- Boot up menu
- Direct desktop
- Country setup
- Frugal installer for easy installation
- Grub4Dosconfig for easy setup the boot loader
- Winfonts for providing swap space for Windows dualboot PC.
- Pupsaveconfig
Former 6 is getting success. And the last is this pupsaveconfig.
I am comming back after a while.
great work
Posted: Thu 25 Nov 2010, 10:24
by emil
Shinobar, I just wanted to give a big *thumbs up* to you, great work!
These are all very important little features!
I think the save file creation should get a major improvement, maybe it is possible to stay in the X system while doing it. Having the text menus looks so very dangerous and outfashioned
. What were the arguments to create it at the end of the first session and not right in the beginning, e.g same time as the country wizard?
kind regards
emil
Re: great work
Posted: Thu 25 Nov 2010, 11:07
by shinobar
emil wrote:What were the arguments to create it at the end of the first session and not right in the beginning, e.g same time as the country wizard?
Exactly we are aiming that.
BTW, i'd like to congratulate your new SageLive!
pupsaveconfig-1.6.1 a mock up sample was mistake
Posted: Sun 05 Dec 2010, 11:29
by shinobar
Hi all, i am back!
Attached at the top post pupsaveconfig-1.6.1.pet, still a mock up sample.
It does not yet reflect our discussion here on the password.
It is only for indicating that i am back to this project.
It has a help file at '/usr/share/doc/help/C/pupsaveconfig.txt', but you need pman, recent Puppy has, installed on your puppy.
To see the mock up, on the virtual terminal, type:
EDIT: was mistake. Please wait maybe more one week before next test release.
pupsaveconfig-1.9.2
Posted: Wed 15 Dec 2010, 07:42
by shinobar
Working model is now available!
Download
pupsaveconfig-1.9.2.pet from
here.
Install on any Puppy-4.x/5.x running with RAM only mode.
Need you test and help towards the version 2.
Find 'PupSaveConfig' menu under 'Utility'.
Or from terminal, type 'pupsaveconfig' (not 'pupsaveconfig2').
Or automatically launches at shutdown.
(Though we are intend to launch it automatically at the first boot up.)
pupsaveconfig-1.9.2 adds the features:
- GUI for configuring the savefile
- Offer copying the main sfs to HDD at Live CD boot
- Offer swap file for small RAM PC
- Choice saving session or not for the frugal install on flash(PUPMODE=13)... You need to select '0' for periodical save interval.
- Remove CD at poweroff. But does not at reboot.
Memorandum:
- Warning on password and keyboard layout issue, but no check with input phrase
- Does not support 'save to floppy' (does it work in recent Puppy?)
- Does not support 'Save to entire partition' (It is buggy and not recommended)
- Does not treat PSAVEMARK (Do you need?)
- Swap file is taken on internal HDD regardless it can be flash device(SSD) nor external (real) HDD.