One thing that is problematic is this conflict with old and new hardware. concentrating to be under 100mb big.
Other distros also have one bloated and one lean and mean.
The bloated maybe could be less bloated if one had the different browsers as extra options. Like Choicepup Pup44 and others already experiment with.
That way one could get a working puppy432 with minimum of applications and then depending on ones need one add those .sfs that have the features that some want and others have no need for. Like Opera, Chrome/Iron, Safari, Skype, Spotify, I have wine and spoticfy now on 431 and love it but I know that others could care less than me about such.
I would prefer the 432 to have Firefox latest as the default browser. I trust that most migraters from Windows expect FF to be the main browser. Those who love Seamonkey and IceApe and such can download them by their own.
Official 4.3.2?
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shariebeth
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Tue 26 Jan 2010, 19:37
- Location: Florida
As a linux and puppy newbie, I agree with this. This would give everyone a consistent regularly-updated working base model, and let us dabble and test the others as our abilities grow and allow. Right now it's just too confusing with all the variants. I've been hanging out in the #puppylinux channel and I am an avid forum reader as well, and I see that puppy definitely attracts a lot of linux newbies who are interested in learning, but are scared off by having a hard time getting started.Artie wrote:I think the best tactic would be for Barry to continue improving on the basic official versions of Puppy with the aid of the whole community and release one of those with a few months gap. This would be the simple basic version with no bling or extra window managers etc., just bug and security fixes and program updates. Then leave it to community members like TazOC and zigbert and others to do their own excellent versions built on Barrys backporting their improvements into the official Puppy.
And the packages included definitely need updating.
Oh yes, this definitely needs to be a priority. I consider myself to have pretty good search skills and the information found is either 5 years old or scattered in 10 places with one solution needing 10 links to solve. It's currently rough out there.As it is now information is scattered all over the web and there's no consistency in the presentation of the material.
Also I have seen elsewhere mention of #puppylinux being removed from the auto-include/start-up feature in new versions. Please don't do that, the concept was a stroke of genius. It is a fantastic resource and opportunity for new users, and yet it is totally underdeveloped and barely managed. I see so many brilliant and helpful people in these forums that would be phenomenal in that channel. It would be nice to see those people offering their help there as well. (It also needs more regular and active chanops, 2 people can't do it there alone.)
@et al - many good points (pro and con, 
tcl/tk and some sort of qt is 'order of the day' for me since one day when gtk2 had a hissy-fit and let's see, what apps have an easy ui if gtk is down 
, ditto that for inbred solitary wms etc).
Browser 'wars' is self-defeating - sm is the traditional oob 'bang-for-buck' optimization and pleases the FOSSvolker and their geckoes (more-or-less). Also a good tradition is the 100mb 'limit', some few zip100's are still out there on older hwr (interesting media).
Development progresses with testers and involvement ('google aversion' may be a blessing/curse depending on the relative viewpoint
, any testing environment benefits from xdelta 
whenever it's feasible imo .. hmmz, q010 should be due momentarily 
)
tcl/tk and some sort of qt is 'order of the day' for me since one day when gtk2 had a hissy-fit and let's see, what apps have an easy ui if gtk is down , ditto that for inbred solitary wms etc).Browser 'wars' is self-defeating - sm is the traditional oob 'bang-for-buck' optimization and pleases the FOSSvolker and their geckoes (more-or-less). Also a good tradition is the 100mb 'limit', some few zip100's are still out there on older hwr (interesting media).
Development progresses with testers and involvement ('google aversion' may be a blessing/curse depending on the relative viewpoint
, any testing environment benefits from xdelta whenever it's feasible imo .. hmmz, q010 should be due momentarily )
I think Puppy 432 should be one with no changes other than bug fixes and the autosetup of networking is nice.
There are a lot of Puppy users present and future who only have a dial-up connection. So keeping the size of the ISO small helps too.
As to those that want FireFox or Opera or Chrome, they can install it as an addon.
This goes for any wanted program.
The real problem I see is that there is no single place to get the addon software and required libraries that that software needs.
Even after using Puppy since 2007, I still have to search the forum and Puppy sites trying to find the software and supporting files/libraries needed to make it work.
Pet package makers often have added support files and libraries installed on Puppy and do not think that someone with the base version of Puppy does not have them.
One thing I will add though. Support for SeaMonkey 1.xx has been discontinued so an update to the latest stable version would be a good inclusion.
That is if you want to keep the original look and feel of Puppy.
And, can the issue of "no xxx.SFS file found be fixed?
I still see a lot of posts on it.
There are a lot of Puppy users present and future who only have a dial-up connection. So keeping the size of the ISO small helps too.
As to those that want FireFox or Opera or Chrome, they can install it as an addon.
This goes for any wanted program.
The real problem I see is that there is no single place to get the addon software and required libraries that that software needs.
Even after using Puppy since 2007, I still have to search the forum and Puppy sites trying to find the software and supporting files/libraries needed to make it work.
Pet package makers often have added support files and libraries installed on Puppy and do not think that someone with the base version of Puppy does not have them.
One thing I will add though. Support for SeaMonkey 1.xx has been discontinued so an update to the latest stable version would be a good inclusion.
That is if you want to keep the original look and feel of Puppy.
And, can the issue of "no xxx.SFS file found be fixed?
I still see a lot of posts on it.
although i see your point about a 'gap-filler', i don't think that this is needed. there might be a gap in comparison to former release-cycles but that should be no problem. so if your only impetus is gap-filling, don't do it.BarryK wrote:I did build an experimental 4.3.2 recently, which was reasonably sane. So, I could do another one then start a forum thread so we can thrash out the bugs, then it will become a gap-filler official release -- something to fill the void until 4.4 or even 5.0 comes along.
BUT 4.32 as a bugfix-release and follower of 4.31 and 4.30 would make sense to me, as this would be a model that is sometimes missing in puppy (my opinion).
4.4 will be a 'new' version, whereas 4.32 is a 'better' 4.31 that is a 'better' 4.30. squish out the bugs, incorporate woof updates make evolution. if a bugfix-release is easy to build, build it.
and if you do a bugfix-release you wont step on anyones toes...
aragon
PUPPY SEARCH: http://wellminded.com/puppy/pupsearch.html
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bugman
Yes!
I have been using Puppy for serious business for years, and would like to see further refinement of the mainline. Specifically I am using Nop 4.3.1 r2, heavily customised for my business.
If you bring out 4.3.2 I'll bet (and hope) that gray will quickly offer an Xfce Nop based on it, An upgrade to that would be the only new puppy that I would seriously and enthusiastically adopt now.
Henry
http://www.henrystrobel.com/linux.htm
I have been using Puppy for serious business for years, and would like to see further refinement of the mainline. Specifically I am using Nop 4.3.1 r2, heavily customised for my business.
If you bring out 4.3.2 I'll bet (and hope) that gray will quickly offer an Xfce Nop based on it, An upgrade to that would be the only new puppy that I would seriously and enthusiastically adopt now.
Henry
http://www.henrystrobel.com/linux.htm
should I come back in and bring out 4.3.2?
I did build an experimental 4.3.2 recently, which was reasonably sane. So, I could do another one then start a forum thread so we can thrash out the bugs, then it will become a gap-filler official release -- something to fill the void until 4.4 or even 5.0 comes along.
I think so. The more eyes and gear on this. The more that will be found out and apply to later releases. I have no druthers when it comes to what works or doesn't work out of the box. That is what testing is for.
So I for one hope you join the fray again BK.
As a very happy user, and as much fun as it is to "play" with new releases I have always been of the opinion that the Puppy release schedule was a bit over ambitious at times when most distros release at a minimum of 6 month intervals.
I have more often then not used Barry's releases because of the "ground up" stability based more on functionality then form.
If the purpose of a 4.3.2 is to strengthen the base system with needed updates than I would say yes especially if it is needed for new users.
(Puppy continues to move up the list in popularity)
But, conversely I think that could wait for Barry maybe doing a 5.0 based on Woof when it is out of beta after the communities 4.4
To me Puppy has a wonderful cult like community that freely takes that "Master build" and makes it into all the great pups we know and love; And I do love trying all the great builds, and these builds fill in all the gaps for different users. So I don't feel the official version needs to be released quite so often.
If I understand correctly that is Barry's wisdom in focusing on Woof as that new "Barry base system" for the community to build from.
While I understand the desire of many to see Barry build the 4.3.2 I would hate to have him pulled away from those other projects to do it.
I have more often then not used Barry's releases because of the "ground up" stability based more on functionality then form.
If the purpose of a 4.3.2 is to strengthen the base system with needed updates than I would say yes especially if it is needed for new users.
(Puppy continues to move up the list in popularity)
But, conversely I think that could wait for Barry maybe doing a 5.0 based on Woof when it is out of beta after the communities 4.4
To me Puppy has a wonderful cult like community that freely takes that "Master build" and makes it into all the great pups we know and love; And I do love trying all the great builds, and these builds fill in all the gaps for different users. So I don't feel the official version needs to be released quite so often.
If I understand correctly that is Barry's wisdom in focusing on Woof as that new "Barry base system" for the community to build from.
While I understand the desire of many to see Barry build the 4.3.2 I would hate to have him pulled away from those other projects to do it.
The same reply as on your site.
Yes..Yes.. Yes.
Co devs....you and ttuuxxx
///////////////
Barry:
I’m devastated.
Seven months since a release.
I know that the windmill project and the termites have kept you busy,
But this was the man who released 7 Puppies in one year.
So I’m not happy Jan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2akt3P8ltLM
“
Yes..Yes.. Yes.
Co devs....you and ttuuxxx
///////////////
Barry:
I’m devastated.
Seven months since a release.
I know that the windmill project and the termites have kept you busy,
But this was the man who released 7 Puppies in one year.
So I’m not happy Jan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2akt3P8ltLM
“
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prehistoric
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue 23 Oct 2007, 17:34
another vote for 4.3.2
In my opinion, there have been enough bug fixes to justify a modest effort on 4.3.2. I just used Stardust 013 yesterday to get the bug fixes I needed. The other changes are nice, but I can wait for 4.4CE.
I get the feeling that Barry could release 4.3.2 fairly soon as he appears to have most of the work already done.
For those who don't think it's a good idea to release 4.3.2 then continue using 4.3.1, the rest of us will probably enjoy the enhancements of 4.3.2
Let's not restrict Barry's inspiration and generosity.
My mother taught me to be polite and accept gifts with gratitude.
For those who don't think it's a good idea to release 4.3.2 then continue using 4.3.1, the rest of us will probably enjoy the enhancements of 4.3.2
Let's not restrict Barry's inspiration and generosity.
My mother taught me to be polite and accept gifts with gratitude.
For the best part of a year now we have had the benefit of some really high quality newbie feedback in the Beginners' Section of this forum, and the issue which comes up far and away above anything else is the difficulty that the raw and bewildered newcomer has in reaching Puppy's excellent information resources.
These are not stupid people.
'Puppy's Jumping off page' was intended to make this easy, but it is abundantly clear now that it is not doing the job as was intended. The intelligent newcomers are not getting to the right stuff. Technosaurus did a grand job developing the Puppy Portal Page, but the continuing feedback indicates that this was not the answer and I fear that with the existing jumping-off page it may have added to the confusion.
This difficulty has been around for many Puppy versions now but has not been addressed because, understandably, the main dev focus is on technical issues.
The newbie vox populi is unmistakable and there is an overwhelming case to issue a 432 transmitting a revamped jumping-off page even in the absence of anything else; we are being told this is the cardinal issue in Puppy-popularity from the newbies' viewpoint.
Rejigging the jumping-off page to address the feedback is trivially easy v/v the ongoing technical issues, and I for one will be very happy to contribute to this if I can. (There are other issues on which I would comment if Barry decides to go ahead with 432, but information access really is the biggie re. newbie acceptance of Puppy).
These are not stupid people.
'Puppy's Jumping off page' was intended to make this easy, but it is abundantly clear now that it is not doing the job as was intended. The intelligent newcomers are not getting to the right stuff. Technosaurus did a grand job developing the Puppy Portal Page, but the continuing feedback indicates that this was not the answer and I fear that with the existing jumping-off page it may have added to the confusion.
This difficulty has been around for many Puppy versions now but has not been addressed because, understandably, the main dev focus is on technical issues.
The newbie vox populi is unmistakable and there is an overwhelming case to issue a 432 transmitting a revamped jumping-off page even in the absence of anything else; we are being told this is the cardinal issue in Puppy-popularity from the newbies' viewpoint.
Rejigging the jumping-off page to address the feedback is trivially easy v/v the ongoing technical issues, and I for one will be very happy to contribute to this if I can. (There are other issues on which I would comment if Barry decides to go ahead with 432, but information access really is the biggie re. newbie acceptance of Puppy).
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davesurrey
- Posts: 1198
- Joined: Tue 05 Aug 2008, 18:12
- Location: UK
Interesting post Barry as I decided to raise the issue of the current status of 4.4 and 5-series and where we were going 2 days ago in this thread.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 458#401458
I'd appreciate it if you'd read it and the comments I got.
The fact that I got about 13 replies over 2 days and you've got 3 pages worth here and 30-plus replies on your blog indicates your "pulling power".
Most see
Thats the good and bad news.
You came to the rescue after 420. If you come in now (and I believe something needs to happen as 4.4 and 5-series developments are slow by past comparison) then there is the risk that folk will rest in the secure (and erroneous) knowledge that you will always be there to rescue us. So if you make a 4.3.2 I think you need to do something more.
There seem to be many here who agree that development of the base Puppys is worryingly slow. It's only a worry of course if we want Puppy to have visability and success measured by take up against other distros. There is debate here whether that is a valid reason for Puppy's existance. If the community doesn't know or is split then I guess you can help to make that clear.
I don't agree with those who say just be happy, enjoy Puppy and things will be okay. Those that stand still, in a moving World, tend to end up going backwards.
I worry who will develop the base when you have really retired and gone rock collecting or whatever.
Even the fundamentals of the distro, a wiki where information is readily accessible for new-comers and a well stocked repository, 2 things that the community could make a big contribution with, are a long way off some other small distros. And even today I see that caneri is being forced to close his site which is a further major blow. Luckily we have a friendly and helpful forum thanks to John.
It's been suggested that we don't have enough developers/coders/packagers. I believe we have plenty of talented folk but they are spread so thin making/supporting so many (too many?) puplets. So why are there so many puplets? Might it be that with a thin repository puplets are another way of tailoring Puppy to ones own needs. Whereas if the repo had many more apps then the needs for so many different puplets would diminish and the devs might be able to contribute to the few base Puppys and further apps. There is the risk though that some might leave and try to set up their own OS.
But I believe that it all comes down to the fact that since your retirement we are leader-less. I've said elsewhere that I don't consider a leader to be the same as a coordinator, but someone who can set a basic direction...to be honest if we do have a direction few understand it today...and then in a hands-off manner let the bulk of the folk here do what they enjoy most. I believe it would not just strengthen Puppy but give it a securer future. As it stands today I am not alone in being concerned.
I hope you won't read this negatively as that's not what is behind it. I truly want Puppy to succeed and strengthen but for months now this forum seems to have become rather apathetic as to the big issues, prefering to roll out new apps, more puplets yet seemingly ignore the bigger issues.
I hope you will find a way, given your unique standing here, to set a direction that others can follow and get us back on the road again.
Yes it would be good to have a 4.3.2 but what we need is direction again.
Thanks for reading.
Dave
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 458#401458
I'd appreciate it if you'd read it and the comments I got.
The fact that I got about 13 replies over 2 days and you've got 3 pages worth here and 30-plus replies on your blog indicates your "pulling power".
Most see
Code: Select all
PuppyLinux=BarryKauler.You came to the rescue after 420. If you come in now (and I believe something needs to happen as 4.4 and 5-series developments are slow by past comparison) then there is the risk that folk will rest in the secure (and erroneous) knowledge that you will always be there to rescue us. So if you make a 4.3.2 I think you need to do something more.
There seem to be many here who agree that development of the base Puppys is worryingly slow. It's only a worry of course if we want Puppy to have visability and success measured by take up against other distros. There is debate here whether that is a valid reason for Puppy's existance. If the community doesn't know or is split then I guess you can help to make that clear.
I don't agree with those who say just be happy, enjoy Puppy and things will be okay. Those that stand still, in a moving World, tend to end up going backwards.
I worry who will develop the base when you have really retired and gone rock collecting or whatever.
Even the fundamentals of the distro, a wiki where information is readily accessible for new-comers and a well stocked repository, 2 things that the community could make a big contribution with, are a long way off some other small distros. And even today I see that caneri is being forced to close his site which is a further major blow. Luckily we have a friendly and helpful forum thanks to John.
It's been suggested that we don't have enough developers/coders/packagers. I believe we have plenty of talented folk but they are spread so thin making/supporting so many (too many?) puplets. So why are there so many puplets? Might it be that with a thin repository puplets are another way of tailoring Puppy to ones own needs. Whereas if the repo had many more apps then the needs for so many different puplets would diminish and the devs might be able to contribute to the few base Puppys and further apps. There is the risk though that some might leave and try to set up their own OS.
But I believe that it all comes down to the fact that since your retirement we are leader-less. I've said elsewhere that I don't consider a leader to be the same as a coordinator, but someone who can set a basic direction...to be honest if we do have a direction few understand it today...and then in a hands-off manner let the bulk of the folk here do what they enjoy most. I believe it would not just strengthen Puppy but give it a securer future. As it stands today I am not alone in being concerned.
I hope you won't read this negatively as that's not what is behind it. I truly want Puppy to succeed and strengthen but for months now this forum seems to have become rather apathetic as to the big issues, prefering to roll out new apps, more puplets yet seemingly ignore the bigger issues.
I hope you will find a way, given your unique standing here, to set a direction that others can follow and get us back on the road again.
Yes it would be good to have a 4.3.2 but what we need is direction again.
Thanks for reading.
Dave
Go for it barry but its now time to make a change
Barry, Go for it. However its now time to make some improvements. I suggest on you that you must make the puppy more compact as possible because the 4.3.1 is almost more than 90MB. I noticed that you make the Dingo smaller than 3.0 , so it is possible on 4.3.x series of puppy. Please consider what the general users want.
Yes the puppy is good but there is a thing that hinders the being user-friendly of puppy. And that was the file manager, Rox-filer is good but tend not to be difficult for the newbies due to its own commands and implementation. I always prefer using puplet specially Gray's NOP. Because it is the one of the most compact and most user friendly Puppy that I ever use. I noticed that he removed all the unnecessary and redudant apps. He select more user-friendly apps. And many puplets based on his Puplet.
If you don't want the xfcee environment as primary Desktop environment. I suggest this combination>>>JWM + Thunar. Please include the disklabel implementation (if the device has a disklabel on it). To identify the storage devices easily. Here is my concept: When the storage device is detected instead of "sdxN" appeared on Desktop, "(sdXN)my_drive" appeared which was the same as "(X:)my_drive" on ms windows.
I hope these my suggestions help a lot you and for the development of Puppy.
Good Luck Barry and more power to you.
Yes the puppy is good but there is a thing that hinders the being user-friendly of puppy. And that was the file manager, Rox-filer is good but tend not to be difficult for the newbies due to its own commands and implementation. I always prefer using puplet specially Gray's NOP. Because it is the one of the most compact and most user friendly Puppy that I ever use. I noticed that he removed all the unnecessary and redudant apps. He select more user-friendly apps. And many puplets based on his Puplet.
If you don't want the xfcee environment as primary Desktop environment. I suggest this combination>>>JWM + Thunar. Please include the disklabel implementation (if the device has a disklabel on it). To identify the storage devices easily. Here is my concept: When the storage device is detected instead of "sdxN" appeared on Desktop, "(sdXN)my_drive" appeared which was the same as "(X:)my_drive" on ms windows.
I hope these my suggestions help a lot you and for the development of Puppy.
Good Luck Barry and more power to you.
This thread is sort of becoming a "which direction should puppy go in general" instead of should Barry make a 432 but I agree with Dave completely and the others that say yes.davesurrey wrote:It's been suggested that we don't have enough developers/coders/packagers. I believe we have plenty of talented folk but they are spread so thin making/supporting so many (too many?) puplets. So why are there so many puplets? Might it be that with a thin repository puplets are another way of tailoring Puppy to ones own needs. Whereas if the repo had many more apps then the needs for so many different puplets would diminish and the devs might be able to contribute to the few base Puppys and further apps.
The people here seem to like to be involved. Zigbert has a huge amount of people involved and following his stardust project b/c it is engaging. He releases new versions every few days and allows people the ability to try and improve upon it. A few improvements, another beta release. I'm not suggesting that you should do that but more releases keep people involved and interested. So I too would vote yes.
As far as what Dave brought up I agree. A barebones puppy that allows people the option to download what they want makes sense. Have an option on the desktop for others that says "recommended standard applications" that would download all the other files but it should start fairly empty.
Everything is about customization now. How do you want your hamburger? What features do you want on your car? How can you make your cell phone not look or sound like any other persons? Which financial product is designed specifically for you? If anyone here is involved in marketing they can expound further on the consumers desire for customization. Like buying a car. Start with a base and let the consumer add the features they want while weighing the costs themselves. Goingnuts is heading in the right direction this way with pupngo. Not there yet but still the right direction.
432 YES! ... but with Firefox and ttuuxxx helping it
My perspective is of a nooby doing some remastering aiming at my own use and to motivate and show ruindows users THE option to migrate to a better world: PUPPY.
I am starting from down here in Rio de Janeiro but my dream is to see it further spreaded all around Brazil and (why not?), Latin America, Africa and Asia, which all have in common the fact of a large population with low income and availability of old hardware, perhaps for free.
Maybe, some organized action, with the right design and counting on the right PUPPY and packages, could help trigging the systematic creation of NGO's in all these lands to further help spreading/providing low cost and high quality (LCHQ) computing to all those low income families.
Thus:
1st) I vote for 432 with Firefox (I am currently happy with ttuuxxx's 4311) and I suggest that ttuuxxx's knowledge, specially after 4311 and 214X development, definitely be integrated into 432.
2nd) Option for the latest version of OO with possibility of systematic updates, the same way as it is possible with Firefox.
3rd) Option for GIMP, also with systematic updates.
4th)Of course Skype, BUT ... also option of a good SOFTPHONE for other VOIP providers, like VOIPRAIDER (www.voipraider.com), which is way more affordable for phone calls/international phone calls - after a $10 dollars credit you are allowed to call for free land lines in most countries and to mobiles in US, Canada and China.
VOIPRAIDER recommends, for linux users, LINPHONE free softphone http://www.linphone.org/index.php/eng/features
PSIP 0.12 works technically well but you can't access/use the contacts list stored at your VOIP provider's servers and its local stored buddies list doesn't allow buddies' names for the phone numbers.
saudações
fm1st
I am starting from down here in Rio de Janeiro but my dream is to see it further spreaded all around Brazil and (why not?), Latin America, Africa and Asia, which all have in common the fact of a large population with low income and availability of old hardware, perhaps for free.
Maybe, some organized action, with the right design and counting on the right PUPPY and packages, could help trigging the systematic creation of NGO's in all these lands to further help spreading/providing low cost and high quality (LCHQ) computing to all those low income families.
Thus:
1st) I vote for 432 with Firefox (I am currently happy with ttuuxxx's 4311) and I suggest that ttuuxxx's knowledge, specially after 4311 and 214X development, definitely be integrated into 432.
2nd) Option for the latest version of OO with possibility of systematic updates, the same way as it is possible with Firefox.
3rd) Option for GIMP, also with systematic updates.
4th)Of course Skype, BUT ... also option of a good SOFTPHONE for other VOIP providers, like VOIPRAIDER (www.voipraider.com), which is way more affordable for phone calls/international phone calls - after a $10 dollars credit you are allowed to call for free land lines in most countries and to mobiles in US, Canada and China.
VOIPRAIDER recommends, for linux users, LINPHONE free softphone http://www.linphone.org/index.php/eng/features
PSIP 0.12 works technically well but you can't access/use the contacts list stored at your VOIP provider's servers and its local stored buddies list doesn't allow buddies' names for the phone numbers.
saudações
fm1st