woof alpha1

[WhoDo]

If Woof turns out to be successful, I reckon it could obsolete all previous Puppy versions.

Steady on, Jack! Woof is a build system like Unleashed. It isn't a "Puppy version(sic)" in its own right.

As I understand it you can build a standard Dingo-style Puppy using Woof and the packages from Pet_Packages-4, just like you can with Unleashed. Where the extra value arises is you can also choose to quickly add Debian, Slackware, Ubuntu or Arch compatibility for access to the vast repositories of those distributions.

Certainly that will make Puppy the "next big thing" on Distrowatch, but we have to find a way to ensure that what gets built enhances Puppy's reputation when it's released. The easier we make it for people to clone Puppy, the harder it is to ensure the integrity of the genre IMHO.

Bottom line: Woof isn't Puppy ... it's a way to create Puppy with added flexibility in the flavour of applications supported. That's a fantastic thing for Puppy and the Linux community IMHO, but saying it will "obsolete all previous Puppy versions" is like saying "Here's a box of paints and a canvas ... now you can go out and make Da Vinci obsolete!" It might just happen but the odds are definitely against it! Nevetheless, I admire your enthusiasm and vision

[01micko]

WhoDo,

I appreciate your comments, however I tend to agree with Tronkel. I am only a blue collar worker with no, absolutely no, computer training. Totally self taught. I managed to get "apup" working. How? BK. Two initial answer.

Woof is the future.

Barry, while it is fresh in mind, why isn't there a "DISTRO_PKGS_SPECS-puppy" option?

[01micko]

POOCH (apup) works just fine from my laptop, (way slower, 1066celeron, 512 ram, though the specs seem not much slower, believe me it is!) I'll test other stuff tomorrow, (printing etc).

[Lobster]

Pah!
Foiled again!

Success!
It is very straightforward.
There was a lot of errors during the downloading packages sequence. So I did this about 10 times and until (I hope) most of the packages were downloaded and carried on . . .

. . . eventually asked if I wanted to burn an ISO to CD (DVD accepted too 'coz that is what I used - a rewritable DVD)
Did so
Booted up using Puppy pfix=ram
to what looked like a standard Puppy (only it was called Slack Puppy) and was monochrome - which I rather liked - more so than that fruity citrus anyways . . .

Could not get a connection and Abiword was not loading but the rest seemed a standard Puppy. I had a brief look at packages (not many there under Puppy 4) and was looking for
anything different - there is another package option, I seem to remember.

I am not quite sure what a Slack Puppy is
but I have one . . .

[ferikenagy]

upup= ubuntu woof IS WORKING (i rote now from that) option kernel: 2.6.27.4 #1 SMP, and it works on my laptop Dell 1526, (previous kernels 2.6.25.16 on puppy 4.11-4.2, does not booted) .
almost everything works, no wireless, and missing ayttm,gxine....anyway it has complains about some missing libraries.

conclusion: it is simple gorgeous !, for an alpha is beutyfull

[tronkel]

WhoDo wrote:

Woof is a build system like Unleashed. It isn't a "Puppy version(sic)" in its own right.

Yes, Woof is simply another means of building a Puppy ISO.
But thinking ahead a couple of steps, I can visualise the following scenarios:

1. When a new base Puppy appears, it will appear in the same number flavours as Woof has available.e.g. 4 ISOS of the current base versions would be provided ready-built for the end-user to download - so need to even learn how to use Woof - unless you want to.

or:

2. Eventually the Woof build system could become so easy to use to build a DIY flavour of Puppy, that even an inexperienced end-user could build his own ISO. This depends on providing a GUI front-end to run whatever build scripts are necessary .

This sort of easy customisation might blow away any desire on the part of the end-user to even consider using the "old-fashioned" Unleashed Puppy series(s).

Hence my prediction in the previous post about eclipsing all previous Puppy versions. The older style Puppys will simply not stand up to the power of being able to leverage the packaging systems of the leading Linuces. In this way, Puppy will also become a very major distro in its own right - and start to climb up the Distrowatch ratings. If and when this starts to happen, the older-style Puppy ISOs will simply get forgotten.

I could be wrong though!

[Aitch]

I could be wrong though!

Sounds pretty astute, to me

This depends on providing a GUI front-end to run whatever build scripts are necessary .

Maybe that project polymath is looking for?

Nice thinking. tronkel

Look forward to your vision becoming accepted wisdom/reality

Aitch

[DragonEagle]

Upup 64 has an ISO file now. Time to start fixing what's broken starting with the kernel. I have this suspicion, based on experience, that a 32 bit kernel is not going to like 64 bit apps. Then it's on to finding the sources for Barry's apps (truncate is the one saying hi right now) so I can get them compiled for the architecture.

[big_bass]

Who Do

Certainly that will make Puppy the "next big thing" on Distrowatch, but we have to find a way to ensure that what gets built enhances Puppy's reputation when it's released. The easier we make it for people to clone Puppy, the harder it is to ensure the integrity of the genre IMHO.

tronkel

The older style Puppys will simply not stand up to the power of being able to leverage the packaging systems of the leading Linuces.

just taking two good points that caught my eye


I'm still reading over the scripts
so dont quote me yet

"ensure that what gets built enhances Puppy's reputation"
as long as Barry is active that's taken care of

but I do see your point
I spent 5 months setting up my slacker-pup
and another 5 months now running it .before I upload .. I got your point well

and any large script requires some rolling up the sleeves and lots of coffee
to modify

so the newcomer gets a live CD he can download one pre made also
and save time but better for making test Iso's
that lead to final iso's /custom iso's

unleashed needed an overhaul
it was very clever but for kernel changes and
modules it wasnt set up for non puppy kernels and modules
so this is welcomed

this is a must like it or not
"leverage the packaging systems of the leading Linuces."

we all had our share at building pets and using unleashed

whats my point?

Thank you Barry K for not retiring before your time

big_bass

[growler]

What an amazing concept!! It seems too good to be true...

As I understood it there is still some dependency on .pets though - puppy packages are still required.

Surely the dependencies on the structure of packages in the separate distros will make this a nightmare to maintain?

As it stands it is just a tool to build puppy from the different distros. It seems tough to imagine that the children of woof (wooflets?) will ever be as solid and stable as a debugged standard puppy, where there is such a lot of hand crafting going on to provide optimised stripped minimal binaries for every application in the distro.

However, Barry amazes me all the time... makes his blog essential reading. Go BK!!

[tom4jesus]

WhoDo wrote:

Woof is a build system like Unleashed. It isn't a "Puppy version(sic)" in its own right.

Eventually the Woof build system could become so easy to use to build a DIY flavour of Puppy, that even an inexperienced end-user could build his own ISO. This depends on providing a GUI front-end to run whatever build scripts are necessary .

This sort of easy customisation might blow away any desire on the part of the end-user to even consider using the "old-fashioned" Unleashed Puppy series(s).

Hence my prediction in the previous post about eclipsing all previous Puppy versions. I could be wrong though!

I think you are right on target!

I started using linux about 4 months ago with Ubuntu on my laptop, I then decided after a couple weeks to try my hand at Archlinux with an old computer I had in the attic just to see if I could get it installed after hearing so much about it.
What I found was I learned more about linux from doing an Arch install and having to setup and basically compile my own system from the "ground up" then I did any other way, and I had a ball doing it.

For those not familiar with Archlinux installs. You start by installing a very basic system that leaves you with nothing but a command propt on the screen!, and this after you have manually edited the configuration files for xorg and all other aspects of the system for hours. You then download and configure each separate package from the repository including the desktop environment that you choose. I have tried most of the DE available for Linux under Arch.
And the thing is people LOVE it, and really enjoy building their own system this way. The "Archway" as they call it.
And as I already said I did this as a new Linux user, Yes it took me literally all night of reading through instructions and the wiki and forum, and figuring out all the hardware for the old machine I put it on, but I learned more about Linux doing it than I would have any other way. And it gives you a great sense of satisfaction that you have "built" your own system the way you want it.


I forsee and predict that Woof will be like Archlinux has become to many as a way to make your own customized sytem that fits your needs and hardware. But better then Archlinux it will have Barry's incredible layered squash file system making it portable and diverse to many more applications.

If we think about why any of us are here using Puppy the one great motivator is it's fun! It's addictive, as Barry always says, and it is a great hobby where you are always learning. I think that is what motivates most Linux users. Yes, there are some windows refugees that just want a simple system that works and is free, but I think more Linux users are the former variety; and as such, the average Linux user is going to be someone that wants to learn what is "under the hood" and play with their system.
There is no better way to do that when to "build your own system" something that Arch and Gentoo gave users the ability to do already, and now Barry is in a whole new way.
I think more people are going to be willing to take the time to learn how to do it with Woof then you might think.

I was holding off on trying it out because of my inexperience and uncertainty with the alpha version after hearing about conflicts with the compiling of packages, but after reading of everyones experiences and enthusiasm I am going to have to give it a try!

Tom

[Lobster]

Here is what one version looks like (Slackware Puppy):


This morning after not using the Puppy pfix=ram option and not setting up the firewall I was easily able to get a web connection.
From the menu section the only difference to a standard Puppy that I could find is
'check dependencies installed pkg' (not yet working)
and the default colour scheme . . .

Well that is from the menus. What are the underlying differences?

Do those installing the Ubuntu or Arch version have a similar set up?

[01micko]

Yes lobster,my screeny would be identical except replace "Slack" with "Arch".
What good is this? I hear you thinking, hmmm, well it's early days yet, the underlying architecture is there, and I'm sure native package support for relevant distros will be possible, ie, debs, aur. etc, and wasn't it easy to build a "(insert your choice here)" pup!
Did you fix your 'abiword'? I had the same problem and immediately thought puppy. I ran abiword from a terminal and it was a missing lib, you can find it in 4.1.2, or 4.2 beta. Mine works fine now.

Cheers

[Lobster]

Did you fix your 'abiword'?

No.
During the download packages stage, there will need to be some acknowledgment of all packages downloaded or auto retrying (I hope). This is where the issue occurred - early days though

I am also hoping that woof will eventually be based on 4.2 (when it is ready)

[zygo]

I chose the slackware base but had to disconnect. I'll wait for BKs update to the download script that resumes partial package download.

Can anybody tell me how big the download is in total?

Why is as much as 10gb needed is there compilation invloved?

[dogone]

...Can anybody tell me how big the download is in total?

Zygo, I monitored my Woof Slackware build using gdmap (very interesting, by the way) and noted that

- the Slackware download came to about 230MB
- the build process used a maximum of 1.6 of the 10GB available to it.

I later ran an Arch build. The Arch download was around 210MB. Each of the two builds took 4-5 hours on my 2GHz Athlon machine while using only about 5% of the processor. That last figure surprises me.

[dinky]

Hi folks, this is really exciting. I haven't made a build yet, but plan to as soon as I have time. I'm not that interested in the standard puppy however, so how do I add & remove packages before the build? I'm assuming I need to edit one of the config files, can someone shed some light on this for me?

And also, I am assuming that a distro build like this would be compatible with a distros pakages... does that mean until package support becomes available, I can simply convert a package to a directory, run the the dir2pet script, then install it that way? Truly awesome if that's the case. I forsee this becoming THE tool to build puppy's. I think there will be alot of people who will do it from scratch, and as puppy is so riiculously easy to install, and so versatile, there will be LOTS of scope for new projects. Well done Barry!

~dinky

[Lobster]

Hi folks, this is really exciting. I haven't made a build yet, but plan to as soon as I have time. I'm not that interested in the standard puppy however, so how do I add & remove packages before the build?

Gosh it is barely out the door. Not been implemented yet
- some of us await Alpha2 and will report back
http://www.puppylinux.com/blog/

However if making a 'Woof Ripple' some coding requirements could eventually be automated and also allow for other customised puplets to use the woof system

This script might be of use to you and Barry
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 882#271882

and also Pizzagood's 'Pupbegone' has been updated

[dinky]

Hi Lobster, thanks for that, but not quite what I was looking for. I'm interested in the new remaster program, looks truly awesome. I'm aware the automated scripts for package retrieval haven't been automated yet, but that isn't my question. It's possible this will be solved before I get to it, but what I want to know is what to hack in order to change the packages that get downloaded and built in the first place. While Barry's scripts for building puppy from unleashed are brilliant, to make multiple builds isn't practical unless you hack the text file which describes the packagesin the first place... perhaps htough I just like more control over the process. Anyway, until an easier way for woof arrives, I want to change the packages downloaded in the first instance. Had a brief look at the scripts, but wasn't quite sure which text file (or files) to change. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? And you're right that it isn't off the ground yet, but it's off the ground enough to start building things from, which is what I'm interested in. Very exciting work. Cheers.

~dinky

[dogone]

Woof alpha 1, originally intended by Barry as a pre-alpha, should still be treated as a [proof of] concept. I urge everyone to limit the "blue sky" questions to Barry. The guy has his hands full and is still very much at the creative stage. This is the "Dreamtime" so far as Woof's concerned.

"The Dreamtime laid down the patterns of life for the Aboriginal people. "The Dreaming" was the time of creation." (Wikipedia)