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The time now is Sat 20 Dec 2014, 14:16
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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
one more answer about WiFi passwords
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Enrique Corbellini


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 09:02    Post subject:  one more answer about WiFi passwords
Subject description: please let this one more answer or explain why not
 

This is an answer to the replies of my topic:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=96831

PREVIOUS NOTE: some Puppy moderator stopped allowing answers to this note I created. If that was because of the insults that appeared inside some answers, I would have preferred the note to be entirely wiped out instead letting that kind of answers be shown. I believe those who still want to answer to the topic, can have the calm that always characterizes the people of this forum.


Thanks for all the answers, including the angered ones. This is all teaching me about the topic.
Ardvark, I basically agree with you. Stealing, by definition, is an unmoral behavior. That's why the title of my note was a question. I wonder if taking other one's WiFi is a real stealing or not, that´s the exactly meaning of what I wanted to say.
If something is a REAL stealing, then, sooner or later, the one who makes it, will pay in some way for what he/she did. That's how God expresses, because human law did very few to protect software.
I didn't sell copies of Windows like you, but sometimes I copied it to CDs and used it. The result... was bad, because I was stealing, even if I didn't receive any money for what I was doing. The bad result consisted in never handling Windows capabilities as the people who payed for it.
This capabilities included: efficiency, precise software for the exactly needs, and tech service.
Linux didn't come to allow a pirate world coming to scene, but to fill the need of having software that handles PC's processors with no restrictions. Microsoft wanted to put a lock upon PC’s processors, that was their sin. They weren´t AMD or INTEL manufacturers, but they wanted those companies under their foot.

Now, the situation I tried to expose was this: what should be done when you have many neighbors using WiFi, and they won't notice if you use their service because they will always pay the same amount of money a month?
Our angered partner lazyPup makes severe warnings about this possible behavior. I'll try to answer them:

- “Using other's passwords by finding them with tricks, is absolutely prohibited”.- I agree doing this thing in some specific places can be compared to murdering, i.e. in countries under war. But I think we should consider there are many places in which using passwords is only a result of having them there to use them, not because they are really needed. For the particular case of the region where I live, there are people who need the passwords (not dramatically but do need them), and others who wouldn't want to have a password in their WiFis because it only bothers them.

- “Using others WiFis with no authorization is violating law”.- Can this be compared to steal bicycles or not? I sincerely make this question. Apparently, the owner of the WiFi won't ever know I used it, and that's different from a bicycle because nothing will seem changed. No wheel wear, no harm to the painting, no damage to the brakes, no nothing. But it's true that someone, somewhere, will have a different result in numbers because of the different usage made to the router. That´s a fact that deserves to be remembered.
(Little detail: having bicycles only to run them in the summertime is part of the modern unnecessary consumption... but I know there are many things much worse than this).

- “Telling other people to find/crack passwords is criminal”.- This could be true. In my country this is called “asociación para delinquir” (conspiracy to commit crime): some associated thieves stole big amounts of money by cracking banks' passwords. But when I ask others about cheat passwords here in a Linux page, is because I believe that here, all of those who read and can answer my note, are assumed to respect the GPL agreement, and are conscious about how Linux was accused of being “hacker's stuff”, when in fact it was only university and students stuff.

So, I seriously consider your objection against telling others to do something apparently illegal. But if the Linux developers would have cared about that too much, they wouldn't ever have done something different from Windows, and you and me wouldn't have ever enjoyed something like Puppy.
(Little detail: I don’t know if the U.S. is as rude with unauthorized actions as you say, but I hope we the Linux users don’t start defending the criminalization of free thinking).

- “Reaching other´s WiFis for what?”, you ask. Good question. BECAUSE there is no reason to pay for the internet, since it was created for all the people, with no exceptions.
So, it’s not about using neighbor's connections to steal anything, but to let poor people use the internet with no limit of time.

- How anger you look because of the violation of music and videos copyright!, but did you ever come into the Vuze application? there you easy download all the material of any famous or almost famous creator of everything. And what are you going to do about it? Put Vuze’s programmers a bomb inside their car and make'em use it?
Let me tell you what’s really happening about that. Never in history before The Beatles, musicians had the opportunity to become rich in few days, thanks to the selling of records. This “succesfull fact” drove many of them to crazyness, but the thing is that, after the phenomenon happened, no one remembers many of this unfortunated “musicians”. Exactly the opposite happened to Mozart, who died without a coin, and all the world remembers him 3 centuries after his existence.
So musicians must be protected, that is true. But before believing this protection must be letting them make money, you should consider that Madonna and The Rolling Stones still make millions without selling discs, thanks giving concerts.

People minded like you should continue participating of this forum, we the free software promoters need the opinions of everyone. But my only objection against you is this: you should read the Puppy’s rules about using this forum, because insulting is not allowed, from nobody, and respecting countries and international laws starts by respecting home’s law.
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Fossil

Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 734
Location: Gloucestershire, UK.

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 11:41    Post subject:  

Quote:
... and respecting countries and international laws starts by respecting home’s law.
Tell me, how do your country's laws, judicial system and police treat a thief?
To use an old English term: "This is the pot calling the kettle black." In other words - hypocrisy.
If I pay for something - and you steal it - you are a thief! I don't care if it's a bicycle, the clothes off my back, the food off my table, or the Wi-Fi I pay for from my hard-earned labour. If you take it without my express permission - You Sir...., are a thief! And should be justifiably treated as one.
Moderator - please do your stuff!
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 1132
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 12:18    Post subject:  

Using someone else's WIFI is stealing.
They have to pay for any extra access so you are directly stealing money no matter how you try to evade it.

If I caught you even TRYING to access mine, you would be reported to the authorities without delay. And YES it can be tied down to the machine in your possession.

Illegal copying of music and films is also THEFT, again no matter how much you try to justify it.

You seem to want to steal everybody else's work for your own selfish use and you need stopping.

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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3229
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 13:33    Post subject:  

Smile Hello,
Since the advent of wpa2 the possibility of cracking your neighbors password is virtually null. The process could very well take years.
You ever consider offering to split the bill in exchange for the password?

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rokytnji


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1498
Location: Pecos/ Texas

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 15:49    Post subject:  

Me, living on the border inside of a Hispanc community.

I understand Enrique Corbellini query maybe a little better than others.
Hispanics and Indians look at sharing differently than we do.
It is a cultural thing.

Don't expect your cultural morals to apply when in the barrio.
You will be disappointed and make enemies along the way.

I guess it depends on your barrio Enrique Corbellini. If the neighbors are cool
with it. Who are we to say?

I never made a good hall monitor in school either. You never needed a hall
pass with me.

Like drinking and driving. Hispanics consider a open beer in a pickup truck
like us white folks consider a open coca cola. It is a culture difference.

I quit being upset about things like this long ago. I have enough grey hairs.

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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 1132
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 17:03    Post subject:  

I have no problem with share and share alike, but that is not what he is talking about.

He is talking about TAKING without permission and trying to say he is justified in doing so.

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nitehawk


Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 540
Location: West Central Florida

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 18:17    Post subject:  

rokytnji wrote:
Me, living on the border inside of a Hispanc community.

I understand Enrique Corbellini query maybe a little better than others.
Hispanics and Indians look at sharing differently than we do.
It is a cultural thing.

Don't expect your cultural morals to apply when in the barrio.
You will be disappointed and make enemies along the way.

I guess it depends on your barrio Enrique Corbellini. If the neighbors are cool
with it. Who are we to say?

I never made a good hall monitor in school either. You never needed a hall
pass with me.

Like drinking and driving. Hispanics consider a open beer in a pickup truck
like us white folks consider a open coca cola. It is a culture difference.

I quit being upset about things like this long ago. I have enough grey hairs.


Yeah,..I know what you're saying. I grew up in Texas,..and now I'm here in Florida. What you say about a different view of "sharing" is sooo true. But I'm here still stuck on dialup. So I'm really,...really,...really safe. Nobody wants to steal (or "share") THAT. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 298

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 18:20    Post subject:  

So, you are proposing that it is not only okay to take your neighbor's wifi without permission by cracking their password, but to also use that wifi to download copyrighted stuff over your neighbor's account?

So that when the account gets flagged by the copyright holder and the ISP gets notified it is your neighbor who get punished (loses their internet access)?
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11180
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 20:35    Post subject:  

Enrique, why did you start a new thread to continue a discussion you started in another thread? Confused
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3469
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec 2014, 07:59    Post subject:  

" Since the advent of wpa2 the possibility of cracking your
neighbors password is virtually null. "

Easy as pie I believe...minutes if that.

The world is a scary place.

http://www.blackmoreops.com/2014/03/27/cracking-wpa-wpa2-with-hashcat-kali-linux/

http://null-byte.wonderhowto.com/how-to/hack-wi-fi-cracking-wpa2-psk-passwords-using-aircrack-ng-0148366/

Not even a minute to look up..

Chris.
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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 934
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec 2014, 16:25    Post subject:  

I would take an excessively long ethernet cord over wireless anyday.
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Enrique Corbellini


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec 2014, 22:57    Post subject:  

Hi Flash, I'm sorry I had to publish this second note. It's really not my style to do something beyond the actions of the moderator, but I needed to answer what lazyPup said before because he mentioned 2 important aspects.

Well,... about all the accusations saying I'm a thief or things like that... what can I say... read better what I said. Everything resumes in one thing: I saw how a Nokia Lumia 915 works, I say it comes with 3 applications designed to steal wifi passwords (despite Windows always said they're the first ones respecting law), and I said something like "seems that from now on is valid to steal". If someone wanted to insult me because of my hispanic blood, then I feel sorry for that person, doesn't know what's good and what's bad. Rolling Eyes

Rokytnji, you are probably right, I used a too much Spanish-like expressing to be correctly understood. But here is not my personal prestige or public approving what matters (I give a damn for prestige, if I would care for myself I wouldn't ever use my real name and surname instead of a silly nickname as everyone does), I believe that here the important thing is Puppy has certainly being one of the most important operative systems in the last 5 years, and doesn't deserve to come to a second place only because these new gadgets "touching mobiles" appeared in the market. Shocked

I don't know if an hypothetical Puppy adapted to mobile phones should have the ability to discover neighbors passwords or not, but I know we all should cooperate to build a system for mobiles that let us use those phones with no advertisements, no windows-tricks, no slow, and nothing of all the garbage Windows accustomed everyone to suffer.
Have a nice day. Wink
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ardvark


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1165
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec 2014, 04:03    Post subject: Re: one more answer about WiFi passwords
Subject description: please let this one more answer or explain why not
 

Enrique Corbellini wrote:

- “Using others WiFis with no authorization is violating law”.- Can this be compared to steal bicycles or not? I sincerely make this question. Apparently, the owner of the WiFi won't ever know I used it, and that's different from a bicycle because nothing will seem changed. No wheel wear, no harm to the painting, no damage to the brakes, no nothing.


This is not true. Your actions can be traced.

Enrique Corbellini wrote:
- “Reaching other´s WiFis for what?”, you ask. Good question. BECAUSE there is no reason to pay for the internet, since it was created for all the people, with no exceptions.
So, it’s not about using neighbor's connections to steal anything, but to let poor people use the internet with no limit of time.


Again, I disagree. Access to the internet is not a fundamental right. It's a service you pay for. For the companies who provide this service, money is spent on their end creating the infrastructure necessary for the service, along with costs associated with maintenance and operation in addition to paying other employees to provide customer support. Companies have a right to expect payment for all of this and to make a profit from it. Now, many times I certainly disagree with them as to how much that payment should be but the principle remains the same. Also, if I don't like how much a company wants to charge, I don't have to choose them to provide my service. Wink

There are other means for the poor to obtain internet access...

1. Public hot spots that allow folks to connect at no charge. Where I live here in the United States, these are available at my city's public library and at most, if not all, McDonald's restaurants in the area, as examples. The library even has computers one can sign up to use for free. Again, these options are not "convenient," however, they do allow one to access the internet for free.

2. A few apartment complexes in the city where I live, including mine, have public computers that residents can use to access the internet free of charge.

3. Free or low cost plans with monthly data caps, such as the ones from FreedomPop or NetZero. It costs quite a bit to get the modems in these cases but the service itself is free or low cost.

Perhaps service arrangements are different in your country, the ones I mentioned above are available here in the United States but I would imagine at least hot spots are pretty universal throughout the world. Wink

Regards...
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Moat

Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 217

PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec 2014, 04:32    Post subject:  

Cracking and using somebody's WiFi without their knowledge/permission is stealing... plain and simple. It's no different than secretly plugging into their natural gas line and heating your home with it.

The simple and right solution is to just ask them if it's OK.

Bob
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LazY Puppy


Joined: 21 Nov 2014
Posts: 141
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec 2014, 18:12    Post subject:  

Enrique Corbellini wrote:
If someone wanted to insult me because of my hispanic blood, then I feel sorry for that person, doesn't know what's good and what's bad.


LIAR!

No one ever did this!

LIAR and THIEF!

Is there more to add to this?

What comes next?

Naming me a Racist or Nazi, because I'm a German?

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