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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
trying to think big
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2879
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Fri 25 Jul 2014, 16:05    Post_subject:  

I have an ASUS EeePC 1000HE -- it's rated 36w input from the power jack. Very efficient, yes, but not quite to the level of 10w, which is what I'd expect more of a RasPi-like device such as the ODROID, unless netbooks have become that much less thirsty since mid-2009? ...or perhaps the 10w in your post refers to the USB stick and CD drive only Wink

ASUS EeePC 1000HE -- 10" screen, Atom N270 CPU, 2gb RAM (I upgraded) and a 64gb SSD (I upgraded again). Currently has X-Slacko Puppy 1.0 on it, but I should probably get around to changing that. I'm impatient and it's slow Razz

It's remarkably rugged for what it is, though. That netbook has been through a lot... like the time I left my headphones plugged in and the headphones fell off the table and the cat spooked and ran right through them... wrecked the headphone jack completely. The netbook also used to suffer from the ASUS Netbook Touchpad-Button Curse -- there's a flaw in the design of most ASUS netbooks, the left-click button (rarely the right-click for some reason!) decides one day that it's going to be in a bad mood for a while. The cheap fix is to pull the switch apart, on the motherboard, and re-bend the part that has become unbent with use and time. I eventually replaced the whole board instead, which repaired the headphone jack as well. I've also accidentally dropped that netbook on a flash drive twice. All three falls were with its original hard drive, and that drive still worked fine when I sold it to help cover the SSD costs, at least a year after the last tumble.

The only thing to be wary of, if you ever replace the motherboard, is that the connectors for the camera and the digital microphone board, are identical except one has a flyout ground lead. There are no markings on the cables themselves, and if you switch them, you WILL destroy the mic board. If you don't figure it out soon enough you'll melt the camera board... I was lucky and figured it out soon enough Wink the camera board is quite expensive... moral of the story: make sure you pay attention to that flyout lead, or make your own labels (I recommend colored electrical tape).

...sorry for the yarn. I'll stop now... Embarassed

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slavvo67

Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Posts: 404
Location: The other Mr. 305

PostPosted: Sat 26 Jul 2014, 18:12    Post_subject:  

Guys,

I do need to comment that one of the developers at Bodhi Linux was making tablet ready distros like they were simple to do (a hobby). He had about 4 or 5 different versions and then decided to discontinue because of his focus on the main Bodhi system. He also pulled the posts with the distros so I'm wondering if there were some "outside pressures" involved in this.

At some point, there won't be any of these big boxes left so Puppy will either have changed by then or be a complete dinosaur. So, there's the perfect name for the next distro.... DINO

Best,

Slavvo67
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L18L

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 2507
Location: Moved from Hosla to www.eussenheim.de

PostPosted: Sun 27 Jul 2014, 04:20    Post_subject: Re: trying to think big
Sub_title: puppy deserves more than being crushed by tablets
 

Enrique Corbellini wrote:
So I'm planning to buy a tablet, as many other people do in a situation like mine.
What I wonder is, why can't I buy a tablet which I can program with my own system? Are there tablets which we can install puppy or others o.s. on them?

Assuming that by tablet you mean one of the Cheap Chinese Androids then this will be interesting:
http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Features/Convert-an-Android-Device-to-Linux

If you would like to experiment before buying one: play with android-x86

PS: My Cheap Chinese is a 4core 2GB RAM system with 1280x800 on a10 inch display, All the tools for developing are free available on the web....
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ThoriumBlvd


Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 142
Location: N.E. USA

PostPosted: Mon 28 Jul 2014, 22:07    Post_subject:  

starhawk:

On batteries using wifi about 12 W. (my batt. 6.5 hr)

Plugged in including modem/router, yah about 30W... toss in the "portable" external (full-sized CD/DVD via USB --->netbk) 45W (12V wallwart), and the Laser-Printer, its getting up there.

But out on the road so to say using a hot-spot, fairly L.P.

Cheers,
ThoriumB

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ThoriumBlvd


Joined: 04 Oct 2013
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Location: N.E. USA

PostPosted: Mon 28 Jul 2014, 22:17    Post_subject:  

slavvo67 wrote:
Guys,

At some point, there won't be any of these big boxes left so Puppy will either have changed by then or be a complete dinosaur. So, there's the perfect name for the next distro.... DINO

Best,

Slavvo67


This point quite likely happening now. I mean, big-box 'puters are for maxgaming, and quite power-hungry. But when I think of the distillation process occuring (smaller is better) that netbook phase will be next IMHO. These can do quite well with pups, and get some WP and SS work done, yet have just enough screen area to make it look OK. Easier to carry than a 15" lappy, lightweight, low power.

What gets me right now is the chrome-books that really don't do anything,and are not long-lived (ie no pups allowed).

+1 on "dino"

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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2879
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Mon 28 Jul 2014, 22:46    Post_subject:  

Chrome OS is crap.

I say that, having never used it, and being quite determined to keep it that way. I feel the same way about every other cloud-oriented OS.

"Cloud computing" is a new buzzword for time-sharing -- only with far less data security. If the company or companies in charge of "the Cloud" decide to change their terms of service -- accept or lose your data. If they decide to charge you more -- pay or lose your data. Don't like it? Too bad. Can't pay? Too bad. If they go out of business? Too bad!

Everything old is new again: now with more plutocracy Wink

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jul 2014, 00:06    Post_subject:  

Speaking as someone who has put Puppy-like system (=FatdogArm) to run on ARM tablet:

The main problem of putting Puppy on the tablet is not because the hardware is different. Linux the kernel can run from anything with as little as 16MB RAM to multi-cluster supercomputers, on ARM, MIPS, 68000, SPARC, x86 ... you name it, Linux's probably got it.

It is also not because it has touchscreen. Touchscreen isn't invented yesterday - it's a rather old technology. Enabling right-click on touchscreen (or even with mouse - you want to emulate right-click by pressing your left-click button? Laughing ) is a one line command.

The main problem of putting Puppy (or any other OS, in fact) in a tablet is three-fold:
a) most tablets cannot boot from anything other than ROM.
b) most tablets manufacturers are GPL violators - they are supposed to publish source code for the Linux kernel they use, but are they?
c) some tablets use hardware which only use proprietary drivers

The equivalent situation on the PC would be:
a) The PC can only boot from ROM. Yes it may have optical drive, harddisk, usb, SD card ... but it will only boot from ROM. No ifs, no buts.
b) The PC uses Linux as the kernel but you can't get the kernel source so you can't modify and rebuild your kernel to suit your needs.
c) Your mouse, your keyboard, your display card all needs proprietary drivers to work; and they only work with the original kernel (see b above).

It's a wonderful world Smile - that was the world before PC was invented.

In other words - it is a closed device. Like trying to install Puppy on your PVR. Or your camcorder. Or your DVD player. Or your camera.

Of course:
a) Some tablets are more open than others.
b) With enough motivation, you can workaround these - see for example http://www.magiclantern.fm/ (running custom software on your camera).

To repeat: it's difficult to get Puppy to run on tablet, but it is not because the hardware is different. It is not because it has a different input device (touchscreen). It is not because of different "paradigm".

It is difficult because it is designed to make it difficult to run anything other than the "preferred" OS on it.

And yes, I agree to the original poster: it is wonderful to be able to run Puppy (or any other full-blown Linux OS) on a tablet. Dual-boot if possible. I can envision a lot of other things for it.

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slavvo67

Joined: 12 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jul 2014, 20:36    Post_subject:  

JamesBond:

Thank you for the insight into this. Still, there are ways to get manufacturers to open up. Puppy has over 27,000 registered users and probably just as many unregistered. I'm pretty sure that if a tablet manufacturer was approached with a potential new 27,000 new purchasers, they would gladly open up the system to Puppy programmers. We can probably find 3 - 5 manufacturers that sell tablets in the $150 or less range and "dangle the carrot"

It would be nice to toss Puppy onto a cheap tablet and make it worth something other than a furniture leveler.

Best,

Slavvo67
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4298
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jul 2014, 21:19    Post_subject:  

Excepting LightHouse64, there is still no PUP distro which will take advantage of any tablet or any All-in-One Touch PC, out of the box (OOTB). And, none planned. Even mouse button 1 is not addressed, anywhere, except in LH64 where simple functionality has existed for users for almost 3 years.

Thus any Linux movement in this will come from Canonical or Amazon. Microsoft and Apple have already mastered this, years ago, and now on their own hardware. Those manufacturers (software and hardware) who aim at tablets will do so when the chipsets become standardize as have been done by Intel and AMD. Right now, there is a board war going on where multiple manufacturers are racing to become dominant so that their chipset become so common as they become a industry standard (much like what happened with HP printers when there was no standard excepting old impact printers ... No, I didn't forget IBM's early technology in inkjet and Laser printing when on-the-fly characters could be generated in print data streams).

Linux, with what it already does to support manufacturers will continue to remain as current as possible, but, its a daunting tasks to keep up. Bluetooth, infrared, WiFi, smb, dlna, 2G, 3G, 4G, G, FM, GPS, and the version numbers of each of these technologies mentioned are just a few of what is currently included in tablets today. Of those mentioned, ONLY 3 are present in today's All-in-One Touch PCs. And, most PUP users are just now taking possession of one of these PCs with LH64 being the only OOTB solution in Puppyland.

First step, one would think, is a migration to some common touch services on a PC. Then efforts to begin to take advantage technology for Tablets starting with a forklift, then expanding.

Just one idea of how Puppyland can move. Its subtle, but practical for there is little investment; if one considers that Lighthouse was a beacon.

Hope this helps

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jamesbond

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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 00:46    Post_subject:  

slavvo67 wrote:
Still, there are ways to get manufacturers to open up. Puppy has over 27,000 registered users and probably just as many unregistered. I'm pretty sure that if a tablet manufacturer was approached with a potential new 27,000 new purchasers, they would gladly open up the system to Puppy programmers. We can probably find 3 - 5 manufacturers that sell tablets in the $150 or less range and "dangle the carrot"

I wish it's that simple. Considering for Puppy Linux itself - even if a quarter of that donates $5 to Barry a month, he would have lived a luxury. But that doesn't happen.

Have you heard of the Vivaldi tablet? That's a tablet designed to run full-blown Linux using KDE Plasma interface, supported by nothing less than the KDE team itself (and personally funded by one of KDE lead developer, Aaron Seigo). After being in development for more than a year - it was dead: http://liliputing.com/2014/07/kde-team-pulls-the-plug-on-the-vivaldi-tablet-improv-board-projects.html.

It is a stark contrast with our beloved "industry-leader" who can sink $900M investment on tablets that they had to write off because the tablets didn't sell (those tablets are worthless as a Linux machine either because their bootloader is crypto-locked and will only boot said industry-leader OS).

I'm not pessimistic - there *are* tablets that can boot Linux now, and I do hope that the number will increase in the future; but I would say that they will always be a minority. Just like printers: when you buy printers, you need to check first to make sure that it is on friendly terms with the penguin; otherwise you will run the risk of getting a dud one that only works with a certain industry-leader OS.

gcmartin wrote:
Linux, with what it already does to support manufacturers will continue to remain as current as possible, but, its a daunting tasks to keep up.
Then it will be daunting task for Apple and MS too. Who do you think fund Linux development? Starving students from third world countries? (no offense to the students, to people living in third world countries, and to starving people anywhere - I'm just trying to make the point). For a concrete example: do you know who writes Linux bluetooth protocol stack? (hint: it's not redhat).
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 01:57    Post_subject:  

No offense, but you echo my point. Hope you saw that. Yes, I have known for over 20years of manufacturer involvement and have been included in such transfers briefly 18 years ago during the decline of OS2. Wink
JamesBond wrote:
... Who do you think fund Linux development? ... do you know who writes Linux bluetooth protocol stack?
Also aware of much in this area of contributions. And, who it benefits!

Not sure if this is what the point is. Not sure why that statement from me drew attention.

To echo some of what this thread hits upon, see this 1 minute video by Linus Torvalds

Here to help

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jamesbond

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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 02:57    Post_subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
Not sure why that statement from me drew attention.
Because you have over 4000+ post count. Replying to a person with such a high post count brings good karma Laughing

Quote:
First step, one would think, is a migration to some common touch services on a PC.

Do you know that the Vivaldi tablet I mentioned above is fully touch capable? I'm sure you already know that too, but here's a link for people who don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgfle9i7rms. Yet, despite its touch-capable-ness, it doesn't make it. So I wouldn't think "migration to some common touch services on a PC" is the first step we need to take when we're talking about tablets ... (and fully-touch-capable linux tablets don't make it) ... It kind of makes me think that "touch-capability" is perhaps the 3rd or the 4th step after we get the *OS* installed and running Wink

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rokytnji


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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 10:45    Post_subject:  

Samsung even abandoned their operating system in favor of android as a business decision. If a in house dept gets no love. I don't expect Puppy to get any either.

http://www.personalityforge.com/dynachat.php?BotID=14608&MID=14545

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 11:40    Post_subject:  

rokytnji wrote:
Samsung even abandoned their operating system in favor of android as a business decision. If a in house dept gets no love. I don't expect Puppy to get any either.

Very true.

Though, rumour has it that Samsung is preparing to launch a phone running Tizen (successor to Meego, which is successor to Maemo, which is the full-blown Linux desktop environment for N900 phone). Tizen itself is fully open-source (for now), but I don't doubt that this phone would be closed as well (knowing Samsung ...) but at least in a way it would be closer to a Linux that we know than Android. Anyway, don't hold your breath. Tizen has been in the talk for two years and nothing happened, so this rumour may not happen too.

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greengeek

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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 15:53    Post_subject:  

jamesbond wrote:
It kind of makes me think that "touch-capability" is perhaps the 3rd or the 4th step after we get the *OS* installed and running
I agree. One of the problems I have encountered is that a standard puppy desktop is poorly laid out for a normal finger to operate correctly.

Things like icon size and spacing, system tray and taskbar size, and menu entry size all have a major bearing on whether or not touch is of any use.

I know these things are 'in theory' easy to change - but it still takes a lot of work to set things up in a productive way. I agree with GC that LH64 has some good touchscreen responsiveness but it is ruined for me by the overall clutter of small objects on screen and I cannot see what my finger is touching.

I also do not think that tazoc merely changed a left click to a right click - I have emulated that change and it does not have quite the same effect. Tazoc seems to have done something else (which I suspect involves "pulse polling" the click function) and I find it problematic and variable in it's execution.

Sure, that could just be my hardware or faulty setup, but I don't think the LH64 touch methodology is necessarily the best way to make use of touch on Puppy. Some other 'ground floor' changes are required.

And I don't think trying to emulate Android functionality is likely to be possible...
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