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MochiMoppel


Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 2064
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 03:35    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
suggestions are implemented by the community
but how and who exactly is "the community"? I understand the idea of patch contribution, but I don't understand the authorization process. If 10 people come with patches, who sorts this out? Who does the quality control? And who has the final say on what's in and what's out? Sorry for my naive questions, but I'm used to a company environment with quite different decision processes Wink
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LazY Puppy


Joined: 21 Nov 2014
Posts: 2007
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 05:26    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
LazY Puppy wrote:

Since you are already changing things in WoofCE may I add another suggestion to the one posted above,

The idea of CE (community edition) is not that the community suggests and one or 2 persons are materializing the suggestions, but rather that the suggestions are implemented by the community and contributed to the project in a form of a patch(set) in a pull request.
This way more work gets done and every one is properly credited for their contribution (in the git log)

So please, if you or anybody else wants to implement this (I know you -plural- can do it), patches are welcome Wink

No, I have stated earlier, I can't do such!

I'm not able to be active on the WoofCE, sourceforge, git or what else is out there, since I'm online by a bandwidth of around 12 KB/S - which is usually enough to be active on this here forum, but it's of course not enough to be active on any else place at the web.

Also I'm neither able to produce patches for WoofCE nor I'm able to read those stuff with pluses (+++) and minuses (---) that seems to be a/the patch. So here is what I am able to offer:
Code:
# Copy the DISTRO_SPECS file to /etc (/pup_new)
cp -af /DISTRO_SPECS /pup_new/etc/

Instruction: insert it above this code (precise571 init example) at the end of init script.
Note: probably you are the more expert than I am and you'll find a more appropriated place where to insert the above code - since I'm not an expert of all the PUPMODE(s) that can be used.
Code:
sync
#killall -USR1 hotplug2 #v423
umount /proc/bus/usb
umount /sys
umount /proc

#now using cpio archive for initramfs 'initial ramdisk'...
#exec switch_root -c /dev/console /pup_new /bin/busybox init 3
exec switch_root /pup_new /sbin/init

###END###

In addition I'm able to present my ideas and some of my work based on these ideas on this here forum.

But obviously the idea of CE as it is performed will never ever make any of my ideas and/or work being able to find a place in a future puppy - unless I would be able to write/read the patches and performing high-speed-flat-rated internet access - the latter doesn't really make sense to me, since I'm usually a heavy offline user.

Might think about just to switch to develop my own OS and keeping stuff local, which would be a pity after I decided lately to give some more time/ideas/work/innovation to Puppy Linux.

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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3107

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 06:44    Post subject:  

MochiMoppel wrote:
mavrothal wrote:
suggestions are implemented by the community
but how and who exactly is "the community"? I understand the idea of patch contribution, but I don't understand the authorization process. If 10 people come with patches, who sorts this out? Who does the quality control? And who has the final say on what's in and what's out?

Any one with a github account can issue a pull request.
Any of the 7 current members (pic below) of woof-CE can honor (pull in) a pull request.
Any contributor that is willing to participate, as evident by his/her previous contributions, to woof-CE can also become a member (upon approval).
I'm actually disappointed that capable and active community members do not bother to contribute. Sad

@LazY Puppy, the comment is not directed to you specifically but for the record, after the initial cloning of the woof-CE git, further bandwidth need is actually much-much lower than visiting this forum! (Git was developed in the analogue modem era Wink)
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13096
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 08:20    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
MochiMoppel wrote:
mavrothal wrote:
suggestions are implemented by the community
but how and who exactly is "the community"? I understand the idea of patch contribution, but I don't understand the authorization process. If 10 people come with patches, who sorts this out? Who does the quality control? And who has the final say on what's in and what's out?

Any one with a github account can issue a pull request.
Any of the 7 current members (pic below) of woof-CE can honor (pull in) a pull request.

Maybe I don't understand git terminology, but that does not appear to answer MochiMoppel's question.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3107

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 08:45    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
mavrothal wrote:
MochiMoppel wrote:
mavrothal wrote:
suggestions are implemented by the community
but how and who exactly is "the community"? I understand the idea of patch contribution, but I don't understand the authorization process. If 10 people come with patches, who sorts this out? Who does the quality control? And who has the final say on what's in and what's out?

Any one with a github account can issue a pull request.
Any of the 7 current members (pic below) of woof-CE can honor (pull in) a pull request.

Maybe I don't understand git terminology, but that does not appear to answer MochiMoppel's question.


How so?
The current 7 CE member can all authorize (merge) any incoming patch (pull request) if (s)he finds it appropriate for the function/bug. Sometimes may test the code and others just approve by looking at it.
Take a look at the history of the 475 issues/pull request already discussed and settled one way or another to get a better idea.
Also notice discussions that went on before an issue is settled.

Unless we are discussing about 10 different patches about the same line of code/function. Shocked I have not seen this in big projects like Fedora or Debian but if it happens I'm sure that guided by use-case and code quality the 10 contributors and the CE members can come to a concrete result.

The same is true if we are discussing about a new feature. Though new features should be thoroughly tested before they make it into woof (savefolder is a good example). It is also important to consider that woof is mostly for puppy building and only some OS functions are in woof. Mostly those that historically BK decided to put there. Everything else in the final pupplet comes from packages and pets and is up to the puppy builder which ones to use.

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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 13096
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 09:44    Post subject:  

Thanks. That helps.

This is the problem with the new CE environment. If a change appears in a new Puppy, it's difficult to determine whether it came through woof or if the builder did it himself. In the latter case, it's probably undocumented.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3107

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 10:15    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
This is the problem with the new CE environment. If a change appears in a new Puppy, it's difficult to determine whether it came through woof or if the builder did it himself. In the latter case, it's probably undocumented.

Not sure about that.
"Official" Puppies (announced by BK) can normally by build by woof, which means that a list of the selected packages and twists (usually in the form of z_hack pets) are there. This was always the case with woof/woof2 under BK and did not change in woof-CE.
Of course puplets build by remaster are usually undocumented. This is also true for woof-CE-build pupplets that their builders never bother to submit their changes to woof-CE Sad

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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 5806
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 15:10    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
I'm actually disappointed that capable and active community members do not bother to contribute. Sad
Maybe they don't know how. Or maybe they feel that the existing git members effectively form a committee which oversees contributions and cherrypicks safe, wise, good, functional code for inclusion.

Surely it is safer for us all if the total number of 'controllers' is low? How could it be managed in a stable manner if there were greater numbers of git pullers/pushers?
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sheldonisaac

Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 904
Location: Philadelphia, PA

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 15:23    Post subject:  

greengeek wrote:
mavrothal wrote:
I'm actually disappointed that capable and active community members do not bother to contribute. Sad
Maybe they don't know how. Or maybe they feel that the existing git members effectively form a committee which oversees contributions and cherrypicks safe, wise, good, functional code for inclusion.

Surely it is safer for us all if the total number of 'controllers' is low? How could it be managed in a stable manner if there were greater numbers of git pullers/pushers?

I'm not capable and active, just a user who is grateful to those who are.

Used BasicLinux in the past, then DamnSmallLinux; in recent years, only frugal Puppies, with an occasional glance at debian-dog, etc

Since I use few of the programs included with Lucid (and more recently Slacko), I'd want a small SFS. But have not yet been brave or smart enough to remaster. Afraid of removing things that the remaining programs need.

Is it correct that a smaller system's advantage is that it'd use less of the computer's RAM?

Thanks,
Sheldon

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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14957
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 16:03    Post subject:  

greengeek wrote:
mavrothal wrote:
I'm actually disappointed that capable and active community members do not bother to contribute. Sad
Maybe they don't know how. Or maybe they feel that the existing git members effectively form a committee which oversees contributions and cherrypicks safe, wise, good, functional code for inclusion.

Surely it is safer for us all if the total number of 'controllers' is low? How could it be managed in a stable manner if there were greater numbers of git pullers/pushers?


Hi, gang.

Well, to be frank, I have the impression that I'm not wanted there. I tried
to inquire once, and one member of that "Council" was "dry" with me.

Second thing, perhaps more important: do I have the skills and/or
experience that are needed there?

Third thing: Puppyists like their freedom. They do like to collaborate, like in
a forum thread, but they'll hate it if it's going to be structured. Human
nature, that... We're generous, but on our own terms?

Other thoughts:
From experience, I can tell you that seven people is a big number of people
to have on an "editing" committee. Torvalds rules alone, no? And there are
only two guys for the BSD?

Also, I think that it's wrong that the "creatives" are the same guys as the
"editing" group. Creating and editing -- whether it be a magazine or a Linux
distro -- are two opposite mindsets. The creative type acts on the spur of
the moment, while the editor needs to double-check everything and
anything.

Finally, because you're "technical" doesn't protect you from the "creative
father" instinct; you're just more removed from it than say, a "poet",
because of your "technical" mindset, but it's still there. Even the technical
guy will have the impulse to say to his "editor", about his bash script or
whatever: "Hey, don't touch my kid!" Smile

My 2 ¢. Best regards.

musher0

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ozsouth

Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 831
Location: S.E Australia

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 16:33    Post subject: All welcome  

I believe all are welcome here, musher. Personally, I'm happy to have that committee doing their thing. Quality plus. I don't understand git, so I contribute the odd solution to the forum when I can.
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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 5806
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 16:43    Post subject:  

sheldonisaac wrote:
Is it correct that a smaller system's advantage is that it'd use less of the computer's RAM?
I'd say in general that is true - but I guess it also depends what the code is trying to do. I imagine it would be possible to write a small piece of code (either deliberately or accidentally) that consumes all of ram.

Trim code, well written, should consume less ram I would say.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3107

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2014, 19:09    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:
one member of that "Council"

Let me clarify that members of the woof-CE team are not christen, voted or selected in anyway. Are members because they were interested enough and contributed (as a matter of fact no one else showed up!). Certainly they are not a council or a "council".
Besides, woof is not puppy. Woof is a way to build puppy. People that build "official" puppies may or may not be woof-CE members. Woof-CE team members have no rights over Puppy or any puplet. Puppy is owned by Barry Kauler and puplets by the persons that build them.

BTW, contributing to woof-CE is not structured at all. The same way a forum member puts some pet in a the forum and a puppy builder uses it or not, (s)he can issue a pull request in woof-CE that can be accepted or not. As a matter of fact maybe a handful of requests were rejected and this for technical issues.
So again, if you have some code that solves a bug or adds an appealing feature to the woof code, please send a patch (pull request) to woof-CE, so future puppies can take advantage of it.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 6730
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec 2014, 07:00    Post subject: The question of RAM  

On the issue of RAM: Size does NOT matter!!!

Somewhere in PUPs past, some community members got the impression that size translates to a system's performance. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

Is is true, though, that at boot time there is a need, under all boot time conditions that there is enough RAM (and in some cases RAM plus page/swap) to accomodate system starts. This is one of the 2 primary reasons for PUPPY intending to be small. The other is a combination of ISO size and speed of downloads.That was 2005, when many in this community were on dial up PCs and on a single PC home network. Today, the landscape has changed so dramatically, only us old timers remember this.

RAM is used in many ways by both the Operation System, subsystems, and applications that carry out the necessary actions we commands our PCs to do.

Performance is NOT a matter, either, of RAM or program size. Another of some little understanding. Performance is a measure determined by path-length and waits for any given operation on behalf of the desktop user....NOT RAM. Programs, can typically be resident in RAM, while for a single operation for the user only a few instructions are executed. (Of course there will be those who will spring to suggest views on the last sentence, but, views do not make the resident programs good or bad for there are good and bad in program designs and corresponding performance benefits by use of differing program models.)

One thing to PUPPY's legacy is that it is designed (in the case of Live/Frugal) to move as all/most/much of its distro operation to occur via a filesystem that is in RAM versus the HDD. This has tremendous benefit as the I/O subsystem receives results very quickly versus FULL installations having to wait for results to come via buffer references associated with HDDs/SSDs/USBs/DVDs, etc. Thus, PUPPY operates as a RAM-centric system almost akin to an embedded system.

This is a sound rough idea of what makes Puppy so good.

Hope this helps

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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2549
Location: near here

PostPosted: Wed 17 Dec 2014, 12:50    Post subject:  

@sheldonisaac

You are not the first to desire a Puppy that is slimmed down. Often referred to as Barebones. ThinSlacko may be a good option.

Some options are listed here-
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Barebones

Or there was/is a Babybuild option in Woof if your feeling adventurous.
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