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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
boycott systemd
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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 1935
Location: Wisconsin USA

PostPosted: Fri 22 Aug 2014, 15:26    Post subject:  

Too bad Oracle isn't making any effort to fix Java. Well honestly, I would just like to see Java die altogether.
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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2549
Location: near here

PostPosted: Fri 29 Aug 2014, 13:49    Post subject:  



https://www.diasp.de/posts/1626534
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 8787
Location: qld

PostPosted: Tue 02 Sep 2014, 04:18    Post subject:  

The signs are ominous since Linus still wants the desktop.

This is Lennart's plan. It's a long read but worth it no matter which side of the fence you are on. darkcity, that meme might need several additions!

On the other hand BSD is fighting back with systembsd which has been thrown around in slackware circles.

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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1126

PostPosted: Tue 02 Sep 2014, 08:00    Post subject:  

technosaurus wrote:
bark_bark_bark wrote:
systemd will probably end BSD's existence.
if anything system will reinvigorate the BSDs. I for 1 have plans to puppify a BSD.


I have quite a few friends who use BSD, and they've been constantly trying to pull me over. just for a thought excersize i looked into what would be needed to make a BSD variant of puppy. The biggest issue i found was the lack of AUFS. That for me is the showstopper as im nowhere smart enough to port AUFS to BSD or to figure out how to make Puppy work with the older UnionFS.
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2647

PostPosted: Tue 02 Sep 2014, 12:56    Post subject:  

Using unionfs instead of aufs would be nearly the same -the only thing you'd lose would be the ability to dynamically change the layers. Go for it!
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1126

PostPosted: Tue 02 Sep 2014, 20:22    Post subject:  

amigo wrote:
Using unionfs instead of aufs would be nearly the same -the only thing you'd lose would be the ability to dynamically change the layers. Go for it!


Oh... I thought there would be far more to deal with. I'll add it to the lenghty list of things I want to work on. Razz
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 6735
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep 2014, 06:50    Post subject:  

http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/97126865868/systemd
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 6735
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep 2014, 06:53    Post subject:  

Interesting read...

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Talk:Comparison_of_init_systems
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 6735
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep 2014, 07:00    Post subject: Poetterisation of GNU/Linux  

Poetterisation of GNU/Linux

http://slated.org/the_poetterisation_of_gnu_linux

Quote:
I've found a disturbing trend in GNU/Linux, where largely unaccountable cliques of developers unilaterally decide to make fundamental changes to the way it works, based on highly subjective and arrogant assumptions, then forge ahead with little regard to those who actually use the software, much less the well-established principles upon which that OS was originally built. The long litany of examples includes Ubuntu Unity, Gnome Shell, KDE 4, the /usr partition, SELinux, PolicyKit, Systemd, udev and PulseAudio, to name a few.

I hereby dub this phenomenon the "Poetterisation of GNU/Linux".

The broken features, creeping bloat, and in particular the unhealthy tendency toward more monolithic, less modular code in certain Free Software projects, is a very serious problem, and I have a very serous opposition to it. I abandoned Windows to get away from that sort of nonsense, I didn't expect to have to deal with it in GNU/Linux.

Clearly this situation is untenable.


Quote:

Reading the Ubuntu forums is an exercise in courting abject despair, as one witnesses an ignorant hoard demand GNU/Linux be mutated into the bastard son of Windows and Mac OS X. And Shuttleworth, it seems, is only too happy to oblige, eagerly assisted by his counterparts on other distros and upstream projects, such as Lennart Poettering and Richard Hughes, the former of whom has somehow convinced every distro to mutate the Linux startup process into a hideous monolithic blob, and the latter of whom successfully managed to undermine 40 years of UNIX security in a single stroke, by obliterating the principle that unprivileged users should not be allowed to install software system-wide.

GNU/Linux does not need such people, indeed it needs to get rid of them as a matter of extreme urgency. This is especially true when those people are former (or even current) Windows programmers, because they not only bring with them their indoctrinated expectations, misguided ideologies and flawed methods, but worse still they actually implement them, thus destroying GNU/Linux from within.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3108

PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep 2014, 08:39    Post subject:  

OK... lets pretend we are impartial Rolling Eyes
(Actually some of the "answers" are pretty revealing)

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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 8787
Location: qld

PostPosted: Wed 10 Sep 2014, 09:24    Post subject:  

Ha, it is Poettering's blog, and written well before Homer Slated's rebuttal.

Interesting the name "Pid Eins".

Note that Linus chewed out Sievers well after that. (kdbus, systemd related).

Pulse audio is a mess, so why would systemd be any different?

Just my opinion, it is a blatant grab for fame and fortune and Linus lets it go to a degree (re my "Linus still wants the desktop" link).

Greed is contagious unfortunately.

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3475
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Thu 11 Sep 2014, 12:49    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
OK... lets pretend we are impartial Rolling Eyes (Actually some of the "answers" are pretty revealing)

Yes, the answer is more revealing that the so-called "myths" themselves.

So here is my comment on that FAQ.

When I said "bunk" I mean the "debunking answer" is baloney and the so-called "myths" are not myths, they are real concerns, unless noted otherwise. For those I can't give any fair comment because I haven't looked into the details, I leave it as "no comment".

1. Bunk. Linux kernel also consists of vmlinuz + hundreds of kernel modules. Yet everyone calls Linux as "monolithic" kernel. Ever wonder why? Same as systemd.

2. Bunk. Systemd is being sold and promoted as the *fast* init system. Saying that systemd is not about speed is two-faced. As an side: what exactly has systemd achived in that 900ms? You can get a shell in less than 900ms by booting with init=/bin/ash (busybox shell) ...

3. I give you this one for the myth, fast bootup is useful for all. But the "debunking" text has the gut to say that sytemd is for useful containers, while (until as late as Feb 2014) it has this bug: https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=74589. Note that the "socket-activation" stuff is bunk and rife with issues, see http://ewontfix.com/15/.

4. Bunk. When people say "shell scripts" and init, they are saying about controlling system initialisation with shell scripts, not about "executing" shell scripts.

5. No comment. New things *does* always come with a learning curve.

6. Bunk. See no #1 above. And "modularity" at compile-time is not modularity at all, it is not the the kind of "modularity" that matters.

7. I give you this one. Systemd is definitely geared for servers. Desktop has no need for such elaborate system management services. And can you imagine systemd in embedded system? Yeah.

8. Bunk. It's obvious enough.

9. I give you this one. This is not freedesktop.org project, it is indeed P&K project (paid for by RH), but masqueraded and forced into freedesktop.org. Just like MS bought their way to ISO for OOXML standard.

10. Bunk. Systemd violates every tenet of Unix philosophy. Especially when near the end of the "debunking text" it written: "Ultimately the question whether something is UNIX or not matters very little" Smile

11. Bunk. It is complex not because it has to, but because it keeps swallowing that should have been separate services.

12. Bunk. See #11.

13. Bunk. Systemd is written and designed to work only on *Linux* from day one. Saying otherwise is re-writing history.

14. Not relevant. Debian has now adopted systemd as their "alternative" init service.

15. Bunk. *Everything* can be emulated. See for example the effort on "systembsd" or systemd-shim from debian. Why not P&K do it? "Becaused I don't get paid by RH to work on porting", obviously.

16. I give you this one for the myth (see #13), but the "debunking" answer is junk. Systemd isn't portable because it is *designed from day-one* to be so, because all that matters to its paymaster is Linux. As an aside: many of the Linux-specific features are *already* exposed to the users. What systemd exposed to the "users" are definitely not user-friendly - what's so user-friendly about init system?

17. I give you this one. The log file, however, (very important when you have a crash and want to be able to view its content offline), is binary.

18. Bunk. It is obvious. More and more services have been subsumed under systemd, the last few ones I'm aware is dhcpcd, and linux VT are coming soon ... The reason given? "Because it's better for systemd to perform that function." Yes.

19. Bunk. I don't want to elaborate, there are many stories around this. They copied a page from MS EEE concept.

20. No comment.

21. Bunk. "run vast majority of init scripts work unmodified"? What are you smoking?

22. No comment, although I suspect it is bunk. Scripting with "dbus-send or gdbus" is definitely not for the weak-hearted.

23. No comment.

24. Bunk. Many "bug reports" are closed with a simple comment of "works here" and "work as designed".

25. I give you this one. The more correct statement is "systemd isn't easily debuggable" or more accurately "Once I can't boot to shell then I'm doomed through and through".

26. Bunk. P&K are known to change interfaces without any consideration for backward compatibility.

27. Bunk. It is obvious enough I won't even draw the details.

28. No comment.

29. No comment although I suspect this is bunk, too.

30. Bunk. Especially the "debunking" text. Can you control systemd by writing directly to its socket?

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 6735
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct 2014, 23:45    Post subject:  

Posted in off-topic, Lennart Poettering's Linus Torvalds rant
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=802862#802862

Interesting read.
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3475
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Fri 10 Oct 2014, 03:44    Post subject: systemd-consoled  

And next time, if you don't have systemd you don't have console altogether (if they can convince Linus to drop the in-kernel console code, that is - which I'm pretty sure they'll attempt that)): http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTgwNzQ.

Xorg blows up in your face? Vsync too high not supported by your monitor? Thought you can drop to "console" and fix it? Oh, you can't find the console too ?! Bwahahahahaha, DEAL WITH IT, you systemd-hater! Twisted Evil

The era of Linux where fixing a broken system requires "Recovery CD" has begun Twisted Evil We are one step closer to Windows, guys, so don't panic. Soon all those Windows refugees will feel like home when they use Linux Twisted Evil

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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 5834
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

PostPosted: Fri 10 Oct 2014, 04:21    Post subject:  

But what is the effect on us? Does this simply mean that we have to capitulate if we want to use NEW hardware (and therefore new kernels) - but we can still do what we want with the old hardware (and old kernels)?

What if we are happy to stick with old kernels - can we avoid systemd and instead graft in new modules to cope with new hardware?
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