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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Light-Debian-Core-Live-CD-Wheezy + Porteus-Wheezy
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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5032
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec 2013, 19:27    Post subject:  

A thought... Rox is needed for a "Puppy clone", and it`s the desktop & wallpaper manager.

# So Wheezy profiles for:
"bare Live" Good for building servers and embedded stuff.
"GTK, xorg, etc." A base for desktop systems. No WM, no desktop, etc.
"Puppy base" GtkDialog, Rox, all the stuff that makes Puppy what it is.
And a few others...

GtkDialog + all libs = 17 MB. Most are common libs ( gtk ) needed anyway, so maybe <5 MB.?

# Answered my Q... Synaptic is a gtk gui PM. It should be in all builds except the "bare Live".
.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 02:07    Post subject:  

sklimkin thanks for showing me to get Xandr
I use it on all my small Netbooks so that is a good suggestion

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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2477
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 02:40    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
A thought... Rox is needed for a "Puppy clone", and it`s the desktop & wallpaper manager.

# So Wheezy profiles for:
"bare Live" Good for building servers and embedded stuff.
"GTK, xorg, etc." A base for desktop systems. No WM, no desktop, etc.
"Puppy base" GtkDialog, Rox, all the stuff that makes Puppy what it is.
And a few others...

GtkDialog + all libs = 17 MB. Most are common libs ( gtk ) needed anyway, so maybe <5 MB.?

# Answered my Q... Synaptic is a gtk gui PM. It should be in all builds except the "bare Live".
.

Hi, Terry,
now we make plans to build something good from this.

#Bare-live - I agree. It will be a barebones base to upgrade on top . Leave this to me.

#"GTK, xorg, etc." A base for desktop systems. No WM, no desktop, etc. - when I create the proper base I will upload it. Unfortuantely I don't know enough about puppy linux structure to be sure what I can add or remove from the minimum needed packages. Here I will need help from you and others. This second GTK, Xorg base will be uploaded for testing with the list of added packages. If it is good we continue forward.

#"Puppy base" GtkDialog, Rox, all the stuff that makes Puppy what it is. - I like this idea to make it exact puppy like, but I need help here as well. My first thought was to make it smaller as I can and closer as I can to look like puppy. Xfe was going to replace ROX since it has less dependencies and is more functional. I will be much more happy to make it perfect look like puppy. The size will grow up but we will have two small previous bases to be used from anyone as he/she wish to.

Quote:
# Answered my Q... Synaptic is a gtk gui PM. It should be in all builds except the "bare Live".

Way to include it in the second base without window manager? I think it will be still GUI executable by thyping xinit synaptic. Have to check out this first.

BTW I've tried to make such proposition in the Puppy Community Edition thread but with no luck. If it happens here I will be happy.

Any thoughts on this from more people are welcome.
Start working on the base without xorg first.

Any thoughts from others?
We need to choose which kernel to keep as an example. I prefer to keep the PAE for mothern PC:
http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux-image-3.2.0-4-686-pae

Cheers, Toni

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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 2346
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 03:31    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
A quick thought - the squeeze based LD seems to be lighter and easier to use. Debian is so flexible - just change a few lines in apt-get configuration and your OS will upgrade itself to Wheezy, Jessie, or SID and can be rolled back to Squeeze, if the changes are not to your liking. The procedure is well documented and easy to follow. Is it worth the trouble, to pursue two projects?
''

At the moment, it is the squeeze version that interests me. Mainly because much of my hardware is a few years old or more, but also because I want to run in ram and as fast as possible and in tests I have found squeeze-based distributions best for these needs. As far as typical Puppy distributions are concerned, I've compared early Dpup of Pemasu against Iguleder's GuyDog 501 and despite the same kernel, GuyDog uses much less CPU when, for example, playing youtube videos fullscreen. Probably some other stuff under the hood and less eye-candy effects helping there - nevertheless, I find GuyDog's performance very impressive in practice.

I have yet to install a working flash on saintless' Debian live squeeze version, but will do soon: I'm hoping it performs as good as GuyDog but only time will tell. The drawback with Dpup and GuyDog is indeed that they don't use apt/dpkg.

I do think both the squeeze and the wheezy versions are worth developing though, for different classes of machine. I'm not so interested in this becoming a Puppy Clone; gtkdialog apps are pretty heavy on resources really, and though I like Rox, I do miss treepanel type filemanagers (using SpaceFM in GuyDog and liking it). Xfe is really very good - pity it isn't a gtk2 app though since with the likes of geany so many of these libraries are needed anyway.

Generally, in the search for future "Puppy-like" systems I think it may be time to move away from some of the old constraints imposed by the likes of gtkdialog, which always was a bit of a hack or at least I find it tricky/messy to program with. Gtkdialog is fine for simple frontends for bash I feel, but I'm not so convinced it is the best way to write more complex apps, despite some of the relative success it has had in Puppy. Also, I feel there is no need to stay with JWM or Rox if some alternatives are identified as preferable for some reason or other. There are plenty of apps available that can replace most Puppy Pxxxxxx gtkdialog apps. Gtkdialog isn't so large, so maybe still has a place (though I've always though GTK-server would be more interesting) http://www.gtk-server.org/intro.html

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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2477
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 04:41    Post subject:  

mcewanw wrote:
At the moment, it is the squeeze version that interests me. Mainly because much of my hardware is a few years old or more, but also because I want to run in ram and as fast as possible and in tests I have found squeeze-based distributions best for these needs.

Thanks for your thoughts, Mcewanw,
I also think the Squeeze version should stay as light as possible. Mostly improved with scripts to setup wireless, save file, snapshot and others. Like mount scripts in /scripts folder. No need to start GUI application to do it.
I also have old hardware. With sure older than yours. Squeeze is perfect with its big repository with older versions of apps. There is no use to install new versions on old hardware anyway. It will be a pain to wait for them to get load and will be almost imposible to use them with 256 Mb RAM for example.

Wheezy is different matter. Since it could run whell and even with less ram usage in X, you can't get it work with old versions of apps (except portables like H3V). There is no use to use it on old computer. It has to be version for modern computers. Even 64 Bit ones if you ask me, but I can't build and test 64 bit version with my old hardware.

Now we have three mine, yours and Sunburnt's opinion. More are welcome.
I think the base core could be made no matter what will be the final way to go with Light-Debian-Wheezy. If it's going to look like puppy we will have to add puppy to the name somehow.

Cheers, Toni

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go2null

Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 10:43    Post subject: Squeeze cow snapshow  

I've read somewhere (FoxyRoxy?) that Squeeze supported COW snapshots, but this was dropped in Wheezy.

One of my requirements is to run in RAM and save to disk occasionally - because I am running from a USB stick.
(I run some apps that write all the time and hose the system if not running in RAM.)

How does this Wheezy Live work?
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 489

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 11:09    Post subject:  

I performed (and survived) a quick and dangerous experiment - upgraded Squeeze LD to Wheezy and rolled back to Squeeze again. The steps are very simple:
1) replace "squeeze" with "wheezy" in /etc/apt/sources.list
2) update repositories: apt-get update
3) minimal system upgrade: apt-get upgrade
4) full system upgrade apt-get dist-upgrade
The result was an obscenely huge Wheezy. I got stuff, I didn't ask for, like the latest Iceweasel. Perhaps, I should have stopped at minimal system upgrade - will check that later on. Although, a question is nagging me - when something is removed from the original ISO during "reverse engineering" - is that removal reflected in sources.list? I will continue experimenting with apt-get and dpkg and do 'selective' upgrades. I'm more interested in upgrading via installing self-compiled stuff from Debian sources.

Regarding the choice of window managers, can we have that as in the original Puppy - JWM & Rox? When/if the projects catches on and more people get involved, it will be easier to have a choice. Until then, things should be kept as simple as possible, me thinks.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 11:29    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:

Regarding the choice of window managers,
can we have that as in the original Puppy -
JWM & Rox? .


As you may know and I choose my user name
to warn that I am an absolute nobody in Linux.

I agree that JWM sure is a window manager
but Rox looks more like a file manager but
maybe that was implied and I got lost in the grammar Smile

No criticism of you as person
I just wanted to get suggestions on other small
window managers that could replace JWM

I like JWM but some dislike it so XFVE? or LXDE
whatever they are named maybe are popular alternatives
but very big compared to JWM? .

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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 489

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 11:46    Post subject:  

Sure, it's implied as a combo - window & file manager. JWM/Rox is the lightest and smallest of them all. Barry had a good reason for having made his choice - Puppy was meant to run from RAM. It's about functionality, not about what looks nicer.
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2477
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 12:12    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
Sure, it's implied as a combo - window & file manager. JWM/Rox is the lightest and smallest of them all. Barry had a good reason for having made his choice - Puppy was meant to run from RAM. It's about functionality, not about what looks nicer.

Debian Rox dependencies are few time larger in size than the XFE ones. And XFE is much more functional and easier to set up the way you want than Rox. Squeezy version will stay as it is with small improvements and apps without adding too much size.
Running from RAM is important. The size should not get over 200 Mb in my opinion.
I have an experiment with Wheezy IceWM version with both kernels still inside and size less than 115 Mb iso. So it should be possible to create JWM/Rox combination for a little bit bigger size. Removing one of the kernels will spare about 30 Mb compressed data.

Making Puppy like version Jwm/Rox is my and Sunburnt's suggestion for Wheezy. You can't do mutch with it on old computer. Modern applications are two much RAM hungry. This way the size can grow up a little.

About Squeeze to Wheezy upgrade - you can't do small distro only by upgrading small base. After upgrading squeezy you have to clean manual bunch of files. For example only apt-get update adds around 100 Mb. The result needs much cleaning before creating new squash file.
You can minimize the size easy by running apt-get clean to remove the downloaded packages in /var/cache/apt/archives but it will not be enough. Try to upgrade only the base without adding nothing with save file befor the upgrade.
Lets not forget squeeze light debian you upgrade is read-only mounted. This means you will have the new and the old versions of the packages as size. Even if you combine them in one squash file something from thre old system might sdtay inside since the structure is different.
I do not remove packages manual. I use apt-get purge to remove them and this way dpkg database is configured and updated proper. Check out the content of /var/lib/dpkg and you will get the idea how it works.
I remove manual files (not application packages) which are not needed by the system or will be generated again on boot.

Cheers, Toni

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sklimkin

Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 151
Location: Russia Moscow

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 12:55    Post subject: load--unload & live-snapshot  

Hi, Sunburnt,
I will try to translate from Russian to English my talks with the author of the SFS-Linux'es (developer of the team puppirus.org) on live-snapshot, live-boot on the-fly and so on.
He gave three options "safe sex" with the installation of new programs over apt-get and then packaging them into SFS-modules.

Live-snapshot is needed and used for another purpose: he created a file of all changes in the system during the current session and the file (live-sn**.cpio.gz) connected in the following sessions. Thus, the system remains clean, pristine, but due to the connection live-sn**.cpio.gz over the system files, the user had all the previous changes as if they were present in the system initially.

The author pointed out that this is not "true-way", and only one of the persistent features.
Proper and safe to have around with the system DIR (named /_sfs - for example) for the required programs packaged in SPS and activate/deactivate these modules as needed.

All this somehow present then in Puppy, and he picked it up in one place and applied to Debian/Ubuntu, though quite elegant.

Quote:
I understand that Deb. can install to non-standard paths, this would be very good to do.

There is no need (and then: where to put the *bin* *lib* *.desktop and other specific files that need to be read at startup of the program ONLY from: /usr/bin /usr/lib /usr/sbin ...).
On the other hand: I took firefox.sfs of Puppy repository and installed in the SFS-linux (Debian & Ubuntu). Pak got into DIR /opt but it worked fine.

Privet, Toni !
http://live.debian.net/manual/stable/html/live-manual/about-project.en.html#70
2. About the Debian Live Project

From the first lines are clear changes in the live-boot when switching from debian-6.x (live-boot 2.x) version to version debian-7.x (live-boot 3.x)
But almost no alternatives and have to put up with this.

http://live.debian.net/manual/stable/html/live-manual/customizing-run-time-behaviours.en.html
10. Customizing run time behaviours
10.3 Persistence

I will try to overcome these limitations through the "game" with the installation of kernel

Sergey.

P.S.
There is another big problem, which is present in many branches of Linux, including in Puppy: kernel update (and initramfs.img) to ensure that the system has long been the modern.
Most often, this is solved by recompiling the kernel from the main developer. This is done, as a rule, developers particular system (eg team Puppy), the most advanced users do it themselves (with more or less success). It's difficult work, it is not available to most users.

Therefore, the creation of Linux based on Debian, but includes some important features Puppy - it's not a toy, as it might seem at first glance. It is a tool with far-reaching consequences. It is only necessary to teach this tool easy as possible for the user to update, if necessary, the Linux kernel.
For example: change kernel from squeese 6.0 to wheezy 7.2 (hard but as maximum) Rolling Eyes
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 489

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 14:52    Post subject:  

Hi saintless et al,
I was unaware of Rox' dependencies size. As for my upgrading experiment - don't take it seriously. It's just part of the learning process, and there's still a lot to learn, I must tell you. Like, this for example: I can't scroll in xterm and can't copy text from it. How do you do that?

Thank you in advance.
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2477
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 15:54    Post subject:  

Privet, Sergey Smile

Thanks for the links and the pointers. I still have mich to learn about linux.
I undarstand the russian team has already made something similar working like puppy from debian and ubuntu. I just don't get way the russian locale settings of this distro can become a reason nobody in this forum knows about it. And it uses similar to puppy methods on debian based distro.

Anyway it is great you point it here.

Poka, Toni
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2477
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 16:06    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
Hi saintless et al,
I was unaware of Rox' dependencies size. As for my upgrading experiment - don't take it seriously. It's just part of the learning process, and there's still a lot to learn, I must tell you. Like, this for example: I can't scroll in xterm and can't copy text from it. How do you do that?

Thank you in advance.

Hi Anikin,
experimenting is the way to learn more, so, please, share your results.
For example Sergey gave some thoughts about changing the path to the live folder in grub menu list and this may solve the differense in the structure between wheezy and squeeze regarding one cleaning script for both.
We just have to create folder /live and subfolders /live/image /live/cow in wheezy and to siimlink to them the coresponding folders.

BTW I'm almost there to create Wheezy with the same size and functionality as Sqweeze iso (about 70 Mb). Whatever direction we take from here I will upload the result. It might be useful for someone.

Regarding Xterm I think you gona love it in time.
Press Ctrl and right mouse button and see what menu will appear.
Copy - paste: mark the text in Xterm and just pres the scroll mouse button to paste it where you need. And the opposite.
To select all or part of the content in Xterm mark small part and start scroll the mouse button. When you click right mouse button the text is selected to the point where the cursor is.

Cheers, Toni
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stu91


Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 145
Location: England. Dpup. Dell Inspiron 1501

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec 2013, 16:40    Post subject:  

Currently posting from a custom live wheezy build - i made it much the same way as sklimkin described on page 3 where you start with the min debian base and add to it - i have xorg, blackbox, xfe, wicd-gtk wifi plus some other stuff and .iso is around 170mb i didn't remove or trim anything all locals docs etc are still included, so some room for improvement i think - this was just a test to see how all this debootstrap, chroot and build stuff works so no public upload here.

@saintless - is there some reason you build the other way starting with a debian iso and removing?

Still alot to take in when moving away from puppy to a new system / way of doing things - i think what ever the outcome the ability to reproduce results and recreate builds easily is an important factor.
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