Light-Debian-Core-Live-CD-Wheezy + Porteus-Wheezy

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nooby
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#61 Post by nooby »

Thanks Toni I did download wheezy last night :)

But this text from you makes me worried.
Don't forget wheezy has two kernels inside.
So how do I tell at boot up which one it should make use of
or does it ask at boot and one chose?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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sunburnt
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#62 Post by sunburnt »

Tony; I agree with you wholeheartedly. One thing at a time...

1) My skills are not up to Deb-Live building. I can`t get Wheezy to sudo make a file...

2) I like "made by me", because I have control over the results.
I like the simplicity of removing and adding pkgs. over a complex build process.
Simple... Strip a distro down to nearly nothing but utilities. Now others can "create".

I got your Wheezy to boot with the persistence file you provided ( Thanks...).
Seems to behave well, W3M doesn`t work. Did apt update and I`ll try installing stuff.
Looked at the "Debian setup", vastly complex compared to Puppy, of course.
Stuff in the strangest places, mounts in /lib and other such oddities. "It`s Debian."

I`ll let you know how I do making my own Wheezy setup. Thanks again Toni. Terry B.
.

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saintless
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#63 Post by saintless »

sunburnt wrote:I`ll let you know how I do making my own Wheezy setup. Thanks again Toni. Terry B.
.
Hi, Terry,
just a small advice. Try to save the smallest core without xorg you can. Then keep it in 01.squashfs. Add packages in save file and then create 02.squashfs from it. It will be autoloaded on boot if you keep it in /live folder. You can load 7 or 9 squash files without problems.
This way you will have the base in separate file and if something gets wrong no need to start from 0.

Nooby,
vmlinuz1 = no-pae kernel
vmlinuz2=pae kernel

Cheers, Toni

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saintless
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#64 Post by saintless »

tony wrote:HI,Can someone advise on a wallpaper setter and how to use it.
In squeezy was very easy to put the picture with right name in root.
Whit Wheezy JWM version I can't do it this way.
I will let you know when I manage to find a way.

Cheers, Toni

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saintless
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#65 Post by saintless »

sunburnt wrote: W3M doesn`t work..
The JWM menu item is removed. W3M works from terminal this way:

Code: Select all

w3m http://murga-linux.com

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sunburnt
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#66 Post by sunburnt »

I got iceweasel installed, seems good, and 8 desktops, I like it.!
I`m posting this on Wheezy & IceWeazel. A bit of work and it`ll shine..!


Need to know what apps there are for setting the background wallpaper.
No one app probably won`t work for all WMs ( JWM ). Each needs it`s own.
Saintless, I made a wallpaper setter for Puppy, could be modded for this.

Does Aptitude or Synaptic give a GUI list of apps.?
If one does, then it should be part of your base setup.

Thanks for the building advice. Your base Wheezy doesn`t have xorg?
That should be part of a bigger base setup.


nooby; I think PAE is 32 bit cpus ( pre Athlon & P4 ), and non-PAE is 64 bit cpus.
.

sklimkin
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To add or to subtract - not a question

#67 Post by sklimkin »

Hi everyone!

Allow me to express some of my thoughts out loud (the arguments ) . :roll:
There are several methods for creating your own Linux OS image .
1. In this and the next topic (Light-Debian-Core-Live-CD-Wheezy Light-Debian-Core-Live-CD-Squeeze) the author proposed and showed his new method . Someone called it reverse engineering. I would call it " subtraction method ."
Toni takes a distribution ready and removes unnecessary.

2 . There is another , perhaps more traditional method . I would call it "The method of addition."
I use this method. With the help of Debian debootstrap program obtain the base distribution ( it does not even have kernel), and then use chroot creates additional medium ( it is also called " sandbox") , which retrofitted kernel, networking stack , graphics stack (if necessary) and the most different programs by the user.
I'm a little illustrated (see my links above) , this method , but nothing new to him not added .

3 . The main criteria in the evaluation of the method:
- operability of the system
- the size of the resulting image of the system - the key word "Light"
- opportunity to modernize the resulting system
- repeatability of the results achieved by the author
- and finally an opportunity to improve the present method .

In my humble opinion it is implemented by all and continues to improve his technique . For which he thanks. :!:

4 . Choice as a base Debian system has at least the advantage of a huge number of storage programs.

5 . Author positions its distributions also as a link with the various Puppy-Linux. This is another important point.

6. There is a team that puppyrus.org several years developing Russian versions of Puppy. This team has a developer who did some implementations Linux operating system , using as a "donor ": Debian CrunchBang, Debian Squeese, Debian Wheezy, Ubuntu (10.04 - 12.10) and now uses Arch-Linux.

I understand that the Russian language in any OS can scare readers of this topic. :shock:
But in this case it's not about the localization system and a successful connection possibilities Debian and Puppy "in a bottle." I think that's worth looking at the techniques and technology of creating Debian + Puppy Linux. At least it will expand our understanding of the topic of discussion.

Here are links to its distributions (you can use the Google-translator):
http://uco.puppyrus.org/forum/thread176.html
http://uco.puppyrus.org/forum/thread218.html
http://uco.puppyrus.org/forum/thread229.html
http://forum.puppyrus.org/index.php/board,154.0.html
http://forum.puppyrus.org/index.php/topic,14534.0.html
https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppyrusa

7. The choice of method for "its own" operating system is at the user. A "add" and "subtract" accounts of any method.

8. If something in my text is not clear, then all claims to http://translate.google.com :shock:

P.S.
I think that now the priorities are shifting to:
- Efficient loading and unloading of programs in the form *.sfs
- Packing newly installed programs in a separate container (zip, sfs, xz, ...)
This is due to the improvement of existing Persistece (presistent).

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saintless
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#68 Post by saintless »

sunburnt wrote:I got iceweasel installed, seems good, and 8 desktops, I like it..
Hi, Terry,
you must have the old version. T1 has only 2 desktops. I made the old one not downloadable but still on the site. I will remove it today.
sunburnt wrote:Saintless, I made a wallpaper setter for Puppy, could be modded for this.
It will be nice.
sunburnt wrote:Does Aptitude or Synaptic give a GUI list of apps.?
If one does, then it should be part of your base setup.
Synaptic has. I'll check out the dependencies size.
sunburnt wrote: Your base Wheezy doesn`t have xorg?
That should be part of a bigger base setup.
No, but has bunch of other stuff like cups and printer drivers for example which I removed.
sunburnt wrote:nooby; I think PAE is 32 bit cpus ( pre Athlon & P4 ), and non-PAE is 64 bit cpus.
.
Both kernels are 32 bit. nonpae is for older hardware.
Pae is for newer with support for more than 4 Gb RAM.

Cheers, Toni

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saintless
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Re: To add or to subtract - not a question

#69 Post by saintless »

sklimkin wrote: http://uco.puppyrus.org/forum/thread176.html
http://uco.puppyrus.org/forum/thread218.html
http://uco.puppyrus.org/forum/thread229.html
http://forum.puppyrus.org/index.php/board,154.0.html
http://forum.puppyrus.org/index.php/topic,14534.0.html
https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppyrusa


P.S.
I think that now the priorities are shifting to:
- Efficient loading and unloading of programs in the form *.sfs
- Packing newly installed programs in a separate container (zip, sfs, xz, ...)
Thanks for the links, Sergey,
To tell you the truth many of the problems I have with OS or PC I find solution in russian forum pages.

Efficient loading and unloading of programs in the form *.sfs - if you don't do it in the right order (the order of creation of every sfs) you will break dpkg database. I don't know yet what is the solution for this in the links you gave, but here you can find JBV idea included in FoxyRoxyLinux (debian squeezy 6.0.8) He created orphan packages and after load them the dpkg database is updated in different way. It works like charm:
http://foxyroxylinux.com

Cheers, Toni

nooby
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#70 Post by nooby »

Thanks to Toni and SunBurnt.

Okay I have 64 bit on the HP/Compaq
so now I know what to do.

But I am lazy so will take a week or two
or a month. My body feel motivated for
listening to sentimental music and other stuff :)

But I love that you guys experiment on how
to make small versions where the user can add
what he needs later.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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sunburnt
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#71 Post by sunburnt »

Saintless; But I assume then that the non-PAE is the one for 64bit as it does > 4 GB.

### Need a simple gui-script to mksquashfs added apps.
But the Save file has other stuff in it ( configs.), so need to separate newly added packages.
Download but don`t install does not help, we need "working & configured" apps to Squash.
Once apps are "installed" and Squashed, then it`s easy to combine and split them.
# I`m not much of an app builder, someone more experienced than I needs to figure this out.
# 2 ways: "find" new files and Squash them, or maybe add a temp. extra Save layer for install.

# I`ll look at modding my wallpaper setter to work, should be easy as Rox is the Desktop Man.
# Wallpaper setter is BaCon, but I can make a GtkDialog version as Puppy is the model here.

# Suggestion: IF Puppy is the model, then GtkDialog should be part of the base setup too.
# Suggestion: Perhaps include BaCon into the base Wheezy, BaCon + Docs is only ~ 1 MB.
.

sklimkin
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load--unload & live-snapshot

#72 Post by sklimkin »

Toni: If your result is 200 Mb iso with LXDE Debian 7.2 it is very good result I think.
This is the result of "surgery" in the DIR's / usr / share and / var
Toni: Moving /live inside other folder with different name is what I found as an option to change the top folder name and it works with Grub Legacy. I'm not sure if there is a way to simply rename live folder.

And what happens if you make a link with the name of "live" on the DIR
live.lnk -> /lib/
and so on:
image.lnk -> /lib/live/mount/medium/
cow.lnk -> /lib/live/mount/overlay/
mnt.lnk -> /lib/live/mount/rootfs/
sfs.lnk -> /lib/live/mount/medium/_sfs/

It would be nice to add a minimum xrandr, I did so:
apt-get update
apt-cache search xrandr
apt-get install x11-xserver-utils
apt-get clean

xrandr // this outputs possible screen resoltions
xrandr --output default --mode 1152x864 //or for example:
xrandr --output default --mode 1280x1024

In this panel JWM-menu moves up slightly, but it's better than 800x600
sunburnt: I got Wheezy working with the save file, shows it mounted.
Did "update" and installed live-build, all okay
.
I have no doubt in the method of live-build by additional partitions (Toni).
But I'm not haunted method Puppy sfs-connection inside Live-ISO-image and create live-snapshot also within Live-ISO-image.
I often use ISO-images in a virtual machine.
sunburnt: Sergey; I assume that live-build only makes a build of the running Deb. version.?
Yes, but live-snapshot keeps track of all changes in the system and makes it "cast" as <live-sn-XXX.cpio.gz>, which can be loaded in the next session.
This "cast" has rw-attributes and placed in the root directory in which the system itself.
Attachments
xrandr_set-1152x864.png
(83.66 KiB) Downloaded 380 times

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sunburnt
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#73 Post by sunburnt »

sklimkin; A big requirement is being able to make Squash files from new app installs.

# Is there a way to use live-snapshot to do this.?

# Ideally the new apps would not be installed into the main Save file, keeping it clean.

I can write a app packager if I know where the ( dir. or list.? ) is, to copy the app from it.

# I understand that Deb. can install to non-standard paths, this would be very good to do.
.
Last edited by sunburnt on Thu 12 Dec 2013, 22:36, edited 1 time in total.

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saintless
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#74 Post by saintless »

sunburnt wrote:Saintless; But I assume then that the non-PAE is the one for 64bit as it does > 4 GB
Hi, Sunburnt,
Here is some information about the pae kernel vmlinuz2 :
http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux ... -4-686-pae
and non pae kernel vmlinuz1 :
http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux ... .2.0-4-486
With my old hardware I don't think I can test 64bit kernel. It will not boot with PII and PIII as far as I know.
sunburnt wrote:# Suggestion: IF Puppy is the model, then GtkDialog should be part of the base setup too.
# Suggestion: Perhaps include BaCon into the base Wheezy, BaCon + Docs is only ~ 1 MB.
.
No problem to include BaCon, but for gtkdialog I suggest to think a little bit more. It adds much to the size.

Wait two days to upload another version with one kernel and ICEWM manager. It is about 105 Mb iso but still needs some more tweaking.
Lets see what options we have for small core and decide after testing both versions.
sunburnt wrote:### Need a simple gui-script to mksquashfs added apps.
But the Save file has other stuff in it ( configs.), so need to separate newly added packages.
Download but don`t install does not help, we need "working & configured" apps to Squash.
Once apps are "installed" and Squashed, then it`s easy to combine and split them.
If your idea is to have separate sfs files to be loaded and unloaded where we need them, JBV has a solution for FoxyRoxyLinux to keep dpkg database updated and working no mather was is the load sequence of extra sfs files. He calles them Orphan packages in the forum.
We can do the same by adding a script for automatic cleaning and compressing the content of the save file. One script for wheezy and one for squeeze or maybe one for both if we can make it universal.

I suggest not to hurry the next two weeks to do anything else than planning and reading. Lets see if Light-Debian-Core works well and what issues creates.We might have to rebuild it again if something wrong comes up from the tests.

Cheers, Toni

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Re: load--unload & live-snapshot

#75 Post by saintless »

Hi, Sklimkin,
sklimkin wrote:And what happens if you make a link with the name of "live" on the DIR
live.lnk -> /lib/
and so on:
image.lnk -> /lib/live/mount/medium/
cow.lnk -> /lib/live/mount/overlay/
mnt.lnk -> /lib/live/mount/rootfs/
sfs.lnk -> /lib/live/mount/medium/_sfs/
This is a very good idea to solve the difference in the configuration between wheezy and squeezy. Then the cleaning script might work on both. Need to do some testing.
sklimkin wrote: Yes, but live-snapshot keeps track of all changes in the system and makes it "cast" as <live-sn-XXX.cpio.gz>, which can be loaded in the next session.
This "cast" has rw-attributes and placed in the root directory in which the system itself.
I've never used this option. Need to read more about. Thanks.

Cheers, Toni

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#76 Post by sunburnt »

A thought... Rox is needed for a "Puppy clone", and it`s the desktop & wallpaper manager.

# So Wheezy profiles for:
"bare Live" Good for building servers and embedded stuff.
"GTK, xorg, etc." A base for desktop systems. No WM, no desktop, etc.
"Puppy base" GtkDialog, Rox, all the stuff that makes Puppy what it is.
And a few others...

GtkDialog + all libs = 17 MB. Most are common libs ( gtk ) needed anyway, so maybe <5 MB.?

# Answered my Q... Synaptic is a gtk gui PM. It should be in all builds except the "bare Live".
.

nooby
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#77 Post by nooby »

sklimkin thanks for showing me to get Xandr
I use it on all my small Netbooks so that is a good suggestion
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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saintless
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#78 Post by saintless »

sunburnt wrote:A thought... Rox is needed for a "Puppy clone", and it`s the desktop & wallpaper manager.

# So Wheezy profiles for:
"bare Live" Good for building servers and embedded stuff.
"GTK, xorg, etc." A base for desktop systems. No WM, no desktop, etc.
"Puppy base" GtkDialog, Rox, all the stuff that makes Puppy what it is.
And a few others...

GtkDialog + all libs = 17 MB. Most are common libs ( gtk ) needed anyway, so maybe <5 MB.?

# Answered my Q... Synaptic is a gtk gui PM. It should be in all builds except the "bare Live".
.
Hi, Terry,
now we make plans to build something good from this.

#Bare-live - I agree. It will be a barebones base to upgrade on top . Leave this to me.

#"GTK, xorg, etc." A base for desktop systems. No WM, no desktop, etc. - when I create the proper base I will upload it. Unfortuantely I don't know enough about puppy linux structure to be sure what I can add or remove from the minimum needed packages. Here I will need help from you and others. This second GTK, Xorg base will be uploaded for testing with the list of added packages. If it is good we continue forward.

#"Puppy base" GtkDialog, Rox, all the stuff that makes Puppy what it is. - I like this idea to make it exact puppy like, but I need help here as well. My first thought was to make it smaller as I can and closer as I can to look like puppy. Xfe was going to replace ROX since it has less dependencies and is more functional. I will be much more happy to make it perfect look like puppy. The size will grow up but we will have two small previous bases to be used from anyone as he/she wish to.
# Answered my Q... Synaptic is a gtk gui PM. It should be in all builds except the "bare Live".
Way to include it in the second base without window manager? I think it will be still GUI executable by thyping xinit synaptic. Have to check out this first.

BTW I've tried to make such proposition in the Puppy Community Edition thread but with no luck. If it happens here I will be happy.

Any thoughts on this from more people are welcome.
Start working on the base without xorg first.

Any thoughts from others?
We need to choose which kernel to keep as an example. I prefer to keep the PAE for mothern PC:
http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux ... -4-686-pae

Cheers, Toni

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#79 Post by mcewanw »

anikin wrote:A quick thought - the squeeze based LD seems to be lighter and easier to use. Debian is so flexible - just change a few lines in apt-get configuration and your OS will upgrade itself to Wheezy, Jessie, or SID and can be rolled back to Squeeze, if the changes are not to your liking. The procedure is well documented and easy to follow. Is it worth the trouble, to pursue two projects?
''

At the moment, it is the squeeze version that interests me. Mainly because much of my hardware is a few years old or more, but also because I want to run in ram and as fast as possible and in tests I have found squeeze-based distributions best for these needs. As far as typical Puppy distributions are concerned, I've compared early Dpup of Pemasu against Iguleder's GuyDog 501 and despite the same kernel, GuyDog uses much less CPU when, for example, playing youtube videos fullscreen. Probably some other stuff under the hood and less eye-candy effects helping there - nevertheless, I find GuyDog's performance very impressive in practice.

I have yet to install a working flash on saintless' Debian live squeeze version, but will do soon: I'm hoping it performs as good as GuyDog but only time will tell. The drawback with Dpup and GuyDog is indeed that they don't use apt/dpkg.

I do think both the squeeze and the wheezy versions are worth developing though, for different classes of machine. I'm not so interested in this becoming a Puppy Clone; gtkdialog apps are pretty heavy on resources really, and though I like Rox, I do miss treepanel type filemanagers (using SpaceFM in GuyDog and liking it). Xfe is really very good - pity it isn't a gtk2 app though since with the likes of geany so many of these libraries are needed anyway.

Generally, in the search for future "Puppy-like" systems I think it may be time to move away from some of the old constraints imposed by the likes of gtkdialog, which always was a bit of a hack or at least I find it tricky/messy to program with. Gtkdialog is fine for simple frontends for bash I feel, but I'm not so convinced it is the best way to write more complex apps, despite some of the relative success it has had in Puppy. Also, I feel there is no need to stay with JWM or Rox if some alternatives are identified as preferable for some reason or other. There are plenty of apps available that can replace most Puppy Pxxxxxx gtkdialog apps. Gtkdialog isn't so large, so maybe still has a place (though I've always though GTK-server would be more interesting) http://www.gtk-server.org/intro.html
github mcewanw

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#80 Post by saintless »

mcewanw wrote:At the moment, it is the squeeze version that interests me. Mainly because much of my hardware is a few years old or more, but also because I want to run in ram and as fast as possible and in tests I have found squeeze-based distributions best for these needs.
Thanks for your thoughts, Mcewanw,
I also think the Squeeze version should stay as light as possible. Mostly improved with scripts to setup wireless, save file, snapshot and others. Like mount scripts in /scripts folder. No need to start GUI application to do it.
I also have old hardware. With sure older than yours. Squeeze is perfect with its big repository with older versions of apps. There is no use to install new versions on old hardware anyway. It will be a pain to wait for them to get load and will be almost imposible to use them with 256 Mb RAM for example.

Wheezy is different matter. Since it could run whell and even with less ram usage in X, you can't get it work with old versions of apps (except portables like H3V). There is no use to use it on old computer. It has to be version for modern computers. Even 64 Bit ones if you ask me, but I can't build and test 64 bit version with my old hardware.

Now we have three mine, yours and Sunburnt's opinion. More are welcome.
I think the base core could be made no matter what will be the final way to go with Light-Debian-Wheezy. If it's going to look like puppy we will have to add puppy to the name somehow.

Cheers, Toni

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