Light-Debian-Core-Live-CD-Wheezy + Porteus-Wheezy

[mcewanw]

Hi, William.
See the result on the picture after changing false to true.
Is this what I should see or I have to make other changes?
Isn't less submenus what we are looking for or I do something wrong and the result is different for you?

Toni

Toni, it was because I had some other applications installed and debian menu system is semi-intelligent so reorganises menus best it can when hint_optimize=true.

However, when booting without a live-rw, in menu.h please try:

Code: Select all

#If you want menu to optimize the tree, set this to true:
hint_optimize=true
#for more info on the other variables, see /usr/share/doc/menu/
#hint_nentry=6
hint_topnentry=7
hint_mixedpenalty=64

Then update-menus again. The resulting menu should be very similar to what you achieved by modifying icewm-common but without having to alter that one.

The meaning of these hints is given in sections 7.3 and 7.4 here:

http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-man ... l/ch7.html

You can play with these hint values for different results. Terry... it's not that I understand debian menu system - it is all a bit of black magic...

Advantage of using menu.h only is that changes there should reflect also when using other wm such as jwm, but the results, being dynamic and programmably achieved via 'hints', are not guaranteed. If you want to just cut out submenus in fixed way then your alternative method to modify icewm-common script might be best way, but then you'd have to find similar scheme for jwm etc, so it would be nice if mod to menu.h would do.

[saintless]

Hi, William.
Experimented a little with menu.h hints and this is the best change I can make to the moment.

Code: Select all

sort=$sort ":" ifelse($command, "1", "0" ) ":" title()

hint_optimize=true
hint_nentry=5
hint_topnentry=7
hint_mixedpenalty=15
hint_max_ntry=3 # maybe not needed if hints_max_iter_hint=10 is on
hints_max_iter_hint=10 # may be not needed if hint_max_ntry=3 is on

The problem is mpaint stays program menu entry and there is no Graphics folder. To get it in Graphics folder we need to install xpaint first or another Graphic appication. It is like minimum 2 programs are needed for menu folder but I can't find the right combinantion. Every simple change in some hint breaks everything.
Please. test this combination and write if it is Ok for you. It gives almost the same (but not the same) menu for JWM and IceWM

Toni

[mcewanw]

The problem is mpaint stays program menu entry and there is no Graphics folder. To get it in Graphics folder we need to install xpaint first or another Graphic appication. It is like minimum 2 programs are needed for menu folder but I can't find the right combinantion. Every simple change in some hint breaks everything.
Please. test this combination and write if it is Ok for you. It gives almost the same (but not the same) menu for JWM and IceWM

Hi Toni, Yes, I had previously also tried various hints to see if I could encourage mplayer into the Graphics folder but realised it wouldn't do it when only graphics program. The combination you suggest is fine as far as I am concerned though. Anyway, should anyone ever install another graphics program, the Graphics folder will automagically appear anyway, so no problem really! :-) Main thing is that the long sequence of submenus has gone. Very good I feel. I imagine Debian will eventually come up with some modification to menu system that uses .desktop files instead of /usr/share/menu items, but using hints like this saves needing to add the 5MB perl addition at least and with similar result. A machine-created menu can never be as aesthetically pleasing as one specially crafted by a human I feel. Nevertheless, it's not bad and saves a lot of human tinkering.

[fredx181]

Hi, William.
Experimented a little with menu.h hints and this is the best change I can make to the moment.

Code: Select all

sort=$sort ":" ifelse($command, "1", "0" ) ":" title()

hint_optimize=true
hint_nentry=5
hint_topnentry=7
hint_mixedpenalty=15
hint_max_ntry=3 # maybe not needed if hints_max_iter_hint=10 is on
hints_max_iter_hint=10 # may be not needed if hint_max_ntry=3 is on

The problem is mpaint stays program menu entry and there is no Graphics folder. To get it in Graphics folder we need to install xpaint first or another Graphic appication. It is like minimum 2 programs are needed for menu folder but I can't find the right combinantion. Every simple change in some hint breaks everything.
Please. test this combination and write if it is Ok for you. It gives almost the same (but not the same) menu for JWM and IceWM

Toni

Hi Toni, William
I think Toni's previous solution with the edited icewm-common only was just about perfect.
Why change it with some problematic setup that could possibly also work with JWM.
After all DebianDog uses icewm, nothing else.
Maybe it's possible to make same sort of solution (simular to editing icewm-common) with JWM and include that in the JWM.deb.
Just some thoughts..

EDIT;
btw, I just noticed that gpicview appears not in the menu (because not present in /usr/share/menu but it is in /usr/share/applications)

Regards
Fred

[mcewanw]

Hi, William.
Experimented a little with menu.h hints and this is the best change I can make to the moment.

Code: Select all

sort=$sort ":" ifelse($command, "1", "0" ) ":" title()

hint_optimize=true
hint_nentry=5
hint_topnentry=7
hint_mixedpenalty=15
hint_max_ntry=3 # maybe not needed if hints_max_iter_hint=10 is on
hints_max_iter_hint=10 # may be not needed if hint_max_ntry=3 is on

The problem is mpaint stays program menu entry and there is no Graphics folder. To get it in Graphics folder we need to install xpaint first or another Graphic appication. It is like minimum 2 programs are needed for menu folder but I can't find the right combinantion. Every simple change in some hint breaks everything.
Please. test this combination and write if it is Ok for you. It gives almost the same (but not the same) menu for JWM and IceWM

Toni

Hi Toni, William
I think Toni's previous solution with the edited icewm-common only was just about perfect.
Why change it with some problematic setup that could possibly also work with JWM.
After all DebianDog uses icewm, nothing else.
Maybe it's possible to make same sort of solution (simular to editing icewm-common) with JWM and include that in the JWM.deb.
Just some thoughts..

EDIT;
btw, I just noticed that gpicview appears not in the menu (because not present in /usr/share/menu but it is in /usr/share/applications)

Regards
Fred

I'm fine with either method Fred.

[saintless]

Hi, Fred.

Thanks about gpicview. I will create /usr/share/menu file.
About Icewm+JWM - DebianDog will have JWM in the next testing module. I have it included but not ready to be uploaded yet.

I also just found the changes in menu.h + commening only one line - treewalk= in /etc/menu-methods/icewm-common and /etc/menu-methods/jwm gives exactly the result as changing only icewm-common
Creating Screenshot /usr/share/menu file fixes Graphic folder with mtpaint and screenshot to appear.
I think we can close start menu issue. We need only to create system and utilities folders for jwm manual as they are in icewm menu.

Toni

[mcewanw]

That's great Toni. A step closer to a beta iso release!

[fredx181]

Hi Toni, William

About Icewm+JWM - DebianDog will have JWM in the next testing module. I have it included but not ready to be uploaded yet.

Oops, didn't know that.

I also just found the changes in menu.h + commening only one line - treewalk= in /etc/menu-methods/icewm-common and /etc/menu-methods/jwm gives exactly the result as changing only icewm-common

Ah, I spoke to soon, that's nice
Just had the feeling this would be a never ending story of trying to understand the mysterious debian menu

Fred

[saintless]

Just had the feeling this would be a never ending story of trying to understand the mysterious debian menu

Yes, Fred. I had the same feeling one hour ago
We have luck this time.

Toni

[fredx181]

Just had the feeling this would be a never ending story of trying to understand the mysterious debian menu

Yes, Fred. I had the same feeling one hour ago
We have luck this time.

Toni

Well, don't want to spoil the party... but I think still the problem persists that there are more than one items needed to have a category appearing.
e.g. I have iceweasel installed and the "Webbrowsing" category is missing and iceweasel is at bottom of menu.
Also mpaint you solved by creating screenshots in the "Graphics" folder.
So what if the user uninstalls mpaint?
To be sure I've done right, here's my edited icewm-common:

Code: Select all

#!/usr/bin/install-menu

compat="menu-1"

!include menu.h

outputencoding="LOCALE"

function iconordash()=ifelse(icon(),""" icon() ""","-")
function q($com)=esc($com,""")

supported
  x11=	"  prog    "" q(title()) "" " iconordash() " /bin/sh -c "" q($command) ""\n"
  text= "  prog    "" q(title()) "" " iconordash() " /bin/sh -c "" q(term())   ""\n"
  wm=   "  restart "" q(title()) "" " iconordash() " /bin/sh -c "" q($command) ""\n"
endsupported

startmenu=ifneq($title,"Debian menu",ifroot("menu "" q(title()) "" folder {\n","menu "" q(title()) "" folder {\n"))
endmenu=ifneq($title,"Debian menu","}\n")
genmenu="programs"
submenutitle=""
#submenutitle="  menu "" $title "" folder {\n"
preoutput="\n"
rootprefix="/etc/X11/icewm/"
mainmenutitle="Debian menu"
#treewalk="(M)"
userprefix=".icewm"

And menu.h:

Code: Select all

#   -*- mode: shell-script; -*-
#The definitions here are used by all window managers that !include menu.h.
#This way, you can set your preferences (like whether to use xterm/rxvt,
#how long do you want your menu titles, etc) for all window-managers.
#
#This file is part of the menu package (version 1.4 and higher).
#For more information, see /usr/share/doc/menu/html

#If you prefer long titles, change the definition below accordingly.

function title()=$title

#function title()=ifelse($longtitle,$longtitle,$title)

#If you don't like to see the icons, (un)comment (out) the lines below:
function icon()=ifelse($icon32x32, $icon32x32, \
                  ifelse($icon16x16, $icon16x16, $icon))
#function icon()= ""

#Define the X terminal emulator to use for text apps under X11.
#The following use the x-terminal-emulator alternative.
 
function term()=\
    "x-terminal-emulator " ifnempty($visible,"-ut") \
        ifnempty($geometry,"-geometry ") $geometry \
        " -T "" esc(title(),"\\"") """ \
        " -e sh -c "" esc($command,"\\"") """

#The above is more correct but unfortunately, some menu-methods 
#do not support ''.
        
#function term()=\
#    "x-terminal-emulator " ifnempty($visible,"-ut") \
#        ifnempty($geometry,"-geometry ") $geometry \
#        " -T '" escwith(title(),"'","'\\'") \ 
#        "' -e sh -c '" escwith($command,"'","'\\'") "'"

#Examples:
#Use a specially cooked xterm instead:
#function term()=\
#    "xterm -sb -sl 500 -j -ls -fn 7x14 -geometry 80x30"\
#        " -T '" escwith(title(),"'","'\\'") \
#        "' -e sh -c '" escwith($command,"'","'\\'") "'"
 
#Force use of  rxvt:
#function term()=\
#    "rxvt " ifnempty($visible,"-ut") \
#        ifnempty($geometry,"-geometry ") $geometry \
#        " -T '" escwith(title(),"'","'\\'") \
#        "' -e sh -c '" escwith($command,"'","'\\'") "'"
        


# This sort menu entry case-insensitively.
#sort=$sort ":" tolower(title())
  
#If you want your submenus to come before the commands themselves
#in the menus (in case of mixed menus):
#
sort=$sort ":" ifelse($command, "1", "0" ) ":" title()

#Activate menu section translations:
outputlanguage="LOCALE"
#menu-methods need to set 'outputencoding' before translations are really
#enabled.


#The following is for the hints (or optimised tree structure):
# (For more info on these variables, see /usr/share/doc/menu/*)

#If you want menu to optimize the tree, set this to true:
#hint_optimize=false
#for more info on the other variables, see /usr/share/doc/menu/
#hint_nentry=6
#hint_topnentry=4
#hint_mixedpenalty=15
#
#The variables below are only useful if you want to speedup
#the finding of the best tree.
#hint_minhintfreq=0.1
#hint_mlpenalty=2000
#hint_max_ntry=4
#hint_max_iter_hint=5
#hint_debug=false

sort=$sort ":" ifelse($command, "1", "0" ) ":" title()

hint_optimize=true
hint_nentry=5
hint_topnentry=7
hint_mixedpenalty=15
hint_max_ntry=3 # maybe not needed if hints_max_iter_hint=10 is on
hint_max_iter_hint=10 # may be not needed if hint_max_ntry=3 is on 

forcetree
#Due to the existance of both /Apps/System and /System,
#menu gets confused. So, force /System in it's own section
  System
endforcetree

EDIT:got it well now with towards the end of menu.h (difference is: hint_max_ntry=1 )

Code: Select all

hint_optimize=true
hint_nentry=5
hint_topnentry=7
hint_mixedpenalty=15
hint_max_ntry=1 # maybe not needed if hints_max_iter_hint=10 is on
#hint_max_iter_hint=10 # may be not needed if hint_max_ntry=3 is on 

Iceweasel is now single item in "Network" category and mtpaint single item in "Graphics"
And all the rest is also fine

Fred

[saintless]

EDIT:got it well now with towards the end of menu.h (difference is: hint_max_ntry=1 )

Code: Select all

hint_optimize=true
hint_nentry=5
hint_topnentry=7
hint_mixedpenalty=15
hint_max_ntry=1 # maybe not needed if hints_max_iter_hint=10 is on
#hint_max_iter_hint=10 # may be not needed if hint_max_ntry=3 is on 

Iceweasel is now single item in "Network" category and mtpaint single item in "Graphics"
And all the rest is also fine

Thanks, Fred. I will test it this way.
Here is another solution for single item in folder: change hint_mixedpenalty=100
Here is my menu.h content:

Code: Select all

#   -*- mode: shell-script; -*-
#The definitions here are used by all window managers that !include menu.h.
#This way, you can set your preferences (like whether to use xterm/rxvt,
#how long do you want your menu titles, etc) for all window-managers.
#
#This file is part of the menu package (version 1.4 and higher).
#For more information, see /usr/share/doc/menu/html

#If you prefer long titles, change the definition below accordingly.

function title()=$title

#function title()=ifelse($longtitle,$longtitle,$title)

#If you don't like to see the icons, (un)comment (out) the lines below:
function icon()=ifelse($icon32x32, $icon32x32, \
                  ifelse($icon16x16, $icon16x16, $icon))
#function icon()= ""

#Define the X terminal emulator to use for text apps under X11.
#The following use the x-terminal-emulator alternative.
 
function term()=\
    "x-terminal-emulator " ifnempty($visible,"-ut") \
        ifnempty($geometry,"-geometry ") $geometry \
        " -T "" esc(title(),"\\"") """ \
        " -e sh -c "" esc($command,"\\"") """

#The above is more correct but unfortunately, some menu-methods 
#do not support ''.
        
#function term()=\
#    "x-terminal-emulator " ifnempty($visible,"-ut") \
#        ifnempty($geometry,"-geometry ") $geometry \
#        " -T '" escwith(title(),"'","'\\'") \ 
#        "' -e sh -c '" escwith($command,"'","'\\'") "'"

#Examples:
#Use a specially cooked xterm instead:
#function term()=\
#    "xterm -sb -sl 500 -j -ls -fn 7x14 -geometry 80x30"\
#        " -T '" escwith(title(),"'","'\\'") \
#        "' -e sh -c '" escwith($command,"'","'\\'") "'"
 
#Force use of  rxvt:
#function term()=\
#    "rxvt " ifnempty($visible,"-ut") \
#        ifnempty($geometry,"-geometry ") $geometry \
#        " -T '" escwith(title(),"'","'\\'") \
#        "' -e sh -c '" escwith($command,"'","'\\'") "'"
        


# This sort menu entry case-insensitively.
sort=$sort ":" tolower(title())
  
#If you want your submenus to come before the commands themselves
#in the menus (in case of mixed menus):
#
sort=$sort ":" ifelse($command, "1", "0" ) ":" title()

#Activate menu section translations:
outputlanguage="LOCALE"
#menu-methods need to set 'outputencoding' before translations are really
#enabled.


#The following is for the hints (or optimised tree structure):
# (For more info on these variables, see /usr/share/doc/menu/*)

#If you want menu to optimize the tree, set this to true:
hint_optimize=true
#for more info on the other variables, see /usr/share/doc/menu/
hint_nentry=5
hint_topnentry=7
hint_mixedpenalty=100
#
#The variables below are only useful if you want to speedup
#the finding of the best tree.
#hint_minhintfreq=0.1
#hint_mlpenalty=2000
hint_max_ntry=3
hint_max_iter_hint=10
#hint_debug=false


forcetree
#Due to the existance of both /Apps/System and /System,
#menu gets confused. So, force /System in it's own section
  System
endforcetree

Toni

[fredx181]

Hi Toni

Here is another solution for single item in folder: change hint_mixedpenalty=100

I'm starting to like the debian menu now
Very flexible, it needs some studying but then you got something.
I like both your last setup and mine in previous post.
The difference is that your last setup is more compact (less categories); it has the "System" category which includes all apps from: "Package Management", "Monitoring" and "Administration"
My setup in previous post has those last 3 categories but no "System"
Now which one to choose, shall we vote?

Thanks Toni and William for trying the impossible

Fred

[sunburnt]

My vote... I hate lots of sub menus, so ours is pretty bad compared to most I`ve seen.
Puppy is nice because most of them have menus that are only one sub menu deep.
Mostly Categories in the root menu, and all the apps are only one sub menu down.
Maybe the default browser in the root menu as it`s the only real common app.
If the link default_web-browser points to a desktop file, I think the icon is shown.

[mcewanw]

My vote... I hate lots of sub menus,
...
Maybe the default browser in the root menu as it`s the only real common app.
If the link default_web-browser points to a desktop file, I think the icon is shown.

Yes, my vote is also for whichever gives least submenus (within reasonable limits of there being categories of course).

I also like idea of default browser being in the root menu (which I guess would require a small tweak to ~/.icewm/menu), since it is the main app most people use. I note webbrowser is also in Fred's Porteus-Wheezy root menu.

It has certainly been a time-consuming piece of work 'just for a menu', but it is said that testing and fine-tuning the user-experience is what takes longest and most effort. Buy hey guys, we avoid having to install that extra 5MB uncompressed perl module that was contemplated to address the menu situation. 5 MB may not be a lot but enough for some small apps. Better really just to make the iso as small as possible per the 'Light' objective, which better allows users to install their own preferred apps and keeps resource usage lower.

[sunburnt]

Toni; I couldn`t get the same results you spoke of, but I did find a flaw in desktop.ctrl.
I had thought that WallPapers would be "off" on first boot, but I see you run it as default.

Here are fixes to both desktop.ctrl and wallpapers.gui

And new ArcDrop that extracts Squash and ISO files, and makes Squash files.
It has a new menu, so all the files are new. You can see it now adds PID to file name.

If these apps prove good, I`ll post the BaCon files for you to upload to Smoky`s.

# Also a Debian girlie pix to add to DebianDog. Too racy...?

[sunburnt]

Toni; I`m pissed that Rox has no easy way to set associations. Only by installing Perl.
It`s hard to imagine something so important is so poorly supported. It`s incompetent of them.
# Associations are needed for: .tar.bz2, .tar.xz, .gz, .bz2, .xz. And many more types too.

# MtPaint really needs it`s docs.

### Does anyone have a good way of detecting the latest Firefox version in Bash code.?
I have made 3 different ways to do it, but they`re all complex parsing of web pages.
Downloading Firefox is easy if you know the one you want. Latest version is now 27.0.1
They have a new one every other week. I need my app to get the version automatically.
.

[mcewanw]

Toni; I`m pissed that Rox has no easy way to set associations. Only by installing Perl.
.

Terry, I think most of perl is already there so you would just need to perl mime info which uncompressed is 254kB on my system at least (I doubt I have any extra dependencies already installed so 254kB seems likely. Once the mime types have been determined using that for Rox, is it not possible to simply remove the mimeinfo addition?

[saintless]

Hi, all.

I have a small doubts about setting up debian menu the way we do. I think after installing more and more applications the structure could be changed from what we have it now. I will test some more installed applications to see how it works with both configurations.

www-browser on top menu is still there in DebianDog. It is renamed to h3v and pointed to h3v executable since this is the only web-browser. Easy to be changed from Icewm-Control-Center or text editor from $HOME/.icewm/menu I can rename it back to www-browser if you like.

Terry:

Toni; I couldn`t get the same results you spoke of, but I did find a flaw in desktop.ctrl.
I had thought that WallPapers would be "off" on first boot, but I see you run it as default.

I do not run it as default in my last remaster and it can be some kind related to the problem. I will test your new files to see if the problem is still there.

# Also a Debian girlie pix to add to DebianDog. Too racy...?

Sorry, Terry I really like to include it + I found few more I also like while 01-v3.squashfs was ready for upload, but since the hosting is kindly provided for free by Smokey I like to play safe.
BTW I think to leave only 4 or 5 wallpapers. as default. The Dog and LinuxVillage we should include in my opinion. The rest we can change but I prefer to keep the wallpapers folder maximum 1 Mb. it is 2 Mb at the moment.

Toni; I`m pissed that Rox has no easy way to set associations. Only by installing Perl.
It`s hard to imagine something so important is so poorly supported. It`s incompetent of them.

I do not find perl-mime-info with apt-get. What will be the final size added, Terry? Can you test this?

# Associations are needed for: .tar.bz2, .tar.xz, .gz, .bz2, .xz. And many more types too.

I have it on my mind.

# MtPaint really needs it`s docs.

Way is so important for Mtpaint? Even if I include the docs for mtpaint the next remaster done by the user will make them zero-size by RemasterDog. Note /usr/share/doc will be over 15 Mb at the moment without this cleaning. Can you suggest some way to point mtpaint docs to be used in different folder instead /usr/share/doc?

Toni

[mcewanw]

I think after installing more and more applications the structure could be changed from what we have it now.

Yes, we can't control that really; I thought about that too. Debian menu system is dynamic and adjusts itself in an attempt to make sure there are never an excessive number of entries in any one menu category. But it is a program algorithm whose variable result may not always be the best from a human perspective. But there is no such thing as a perfect automatic menu system and human hand-crafted menus are too much work and prone to human error and different aesthetic point of views anyway.

The only thing is that it might be worth forcing it to drop submenus by modifying icewm-common per your original suggestion about that; but also modify menu.h using these other 'hint' techniques so that there is a fair chance jwm menus won't be too bad either? Thereafter leave it up to system admins to re-modify menu as and when they feel it appropriate?

[mcewanw]

Sorry, Toni, I should have said: libfile-mimeinfo-perl, which is what it is called in Debian repository (if that is the correct file).

As far as keeping wallpapers size down, just for the default release case, perhaps we could include a couple of plain background ones (blue for example) since they are tiny files, in addition to the Dog and Linux village? Come to think of it, that last one Terry uploaded almost is a plain blue background - it was pretty blue anyway hahaha!

For mtpaint docs, how about just the online html handbook:

http://mtpaint.sourceforge.net/handbook/index.html

Admittedly, we never use mtpaint in this house. I read through the docs once and tried to encourage my artist/architect daughter to try it... she still brings it up sarcastically when I mention linux (she uses Mac). So I installed gimp just for her, prior to her getting the Mac (though alas she really prefers photoshop) and I install something like Tuxpaint or even xpaint just for the younger children of the house playing around.

Some pointer to the mtpaint docs are certainly necessary - which my daughter would say is a measure of the non-intuitive nature of its interface. Having said that, it is amazing how many graphics functions have been crammed into such a small program (if only we could master them all or remember even a subset).

By the way, Terry's wallpaper programs seem to work for me, though I haven't really given them a thorough testing.