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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
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pemasu


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5463
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sun 08 Dec 2013, 06:32    Post subject:  

yes|linux-header|linux-libc-dev|exe>dev,dev,doc,nls >>> from distro repo

yes|linux_headers||exe>dev,dev,doc,nls >>> kernel kit creates this, plus compiles the kernel semi-automatically; meaning dowloads kernel tarball, latest aufs, extracts them, patches kernel source with aufs and other patches, asks if you want to use ready DOTconfig from selection and launches menuconfig or other gui, compiles - installs the creation to the folders - creates the folders for woof compliant kernel pet and that linux_headers folder, creates the kernel source sfs, which has been cleaned and made ready for compiling drivers.

Dir2pet > throw them to packages-pet , update package database file and woof a distro.
Done.
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 4230
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 08 Dec 2013, 10:06    Post subject:  

@ amigo

Good & practical article, that.

BFN.

musher0

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Sun 08 Dec 2013, 14:18    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:
@ amigo

Good & practical article, that.

BFN.

musher0


Here's another:

Step 2:
"Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity"
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 410
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun 08 Dec 2013, 16:04    Post subject:  

jpeps wrote:
musher0 wrote:
@ amigo

Good & practical article, that.

BFN.

musher0


Here's another:

Step 2:
"Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity"


nicely said
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 4230
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 08 Dec 2013, 22:01    Post subject:  

darry1966 wrote:
jpeps wrote:
musher0 wrote:
@ amigo

Good & practical article, that.

BFN.

musher0


Here's another:

Step 2:
"Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity"


nicely said


Hi, guys.

Great words of wisdom, from a great international and multi-faceted movement...
But how are they relevant to a community PuppyLinux distro? I don't follow.
Please explain.

Thanks in advance. BFN.

musher0

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Mon 09 Dec 2013, 02:12    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:



But how are they relevant to a community PuppyLinux distro? I don't follow.
Please explain.

Thanks in advance. BFN.

musher0

It's about clear vision. If it seems overly complex and difficult/impossible to maintain..it probably is.

Frankly, I don't know if that's possible from a "community"

"In March, Andy Rubin, one of Android’s co-founders and the man who led it to world dominance, announced he was stepping back from his role spearheading the mobile OS. His replacement: Google’s Chrome OS head Sundar Pichai"

http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/13/googles-new-android-head-finally-breaks-his-silence/

Incidentally, the vision also has to be in synch with current needs, or it doesn't go anywhere.

"In 2004, Sony excited tech enthusiasts with a 1 terabyte home server that cost $5,000. Now, notebook drives can support a terabyte".
http://gigaom.com/2013/12/08/why-digital-storage-is-the-next-hockey-stick-market-in-tech/
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 4230
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Mon 09 Dec 2013, 13:28    Post subject:  

@ jpeps

Thanks for the explanation.

True. A vision too wide chokes on itself... has too much input to swallow. Instead of a
community distro, then, maybe a PuppyLinux "des refusés" (of the refused, literally;
clone of an expression serious graphic artists will be familiar with). In time, these
"refused" artists became the ones we remember.

Another approach: an "off-off-Broadway" Puppy, comprised of only little-known
scripts and programs, great but neglected in the "official" Puppies.

Still another direction could be "trendy Puppy". Numerous possible "trends" here,
a little subjective, though.

What I mean is: importance of focus and structure; there has to be some.

To do a certain task or fulfill a certain need, a community usually lists what it wants
done, and then delegates a committee of people with know-how. In turn, these
people bring the project to completion, respecting AMAP (as much as possible)
the input of the community.

Just thinking out loud. Oh well... BFN.

musher0

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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 410
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon 09 Dec 2013, 20:07    Post subject:  

All I can say as I believe there should be 2 different Pups. I suggested the Retro Puppy Community 4.32 or 4.31 base when it has been decided to use 2.14X which as I have previously said has an inferior Xorg which I might add has missing GLX libraries namely Xorg 7.0 when 4.31/4.32 has the proven Xorg 7.31 which of course can upgrade to Xorg Full.

I also see that 2.14XTop10 has Glibc 2.10 which is clearly an upgrade so I guess simple question is why can the same be done for 4.31/4.32 if it can be done on an earlier Pup - give it the 2.14X treatment?????????????. Glibc 2.10 at the moment seems adequate for a Retro Pup where you won't necessarily being running the latest and greatest but still being able to compile more modern apps would be nice.

As for Jpeps I think is absolutely correct in what he is saying about a modern Pup it should meet with what is required now so as part of the community he is rightly voicing that. He knows a lot more about the modern side of computing than I and I'm sure if you pick his brain he has much useful knowledge to impart.

He and I are concerned about a little lack of direction with this community and wish it to be focused on clear goals the discussion has been going on for along while with only some progress and it is good to see Pemasu onboard - so credit where credit is due.

Also credit for building WoofCE a building block and for Dpup Wheezy

I do believe in the community model but it must follow clear direction and a logical path.
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4211
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon 09 Dec 2013, 22:00    Post subject:  

Members, here, are looking to participate in a clear "stated" direction. But, we still have people/persons running around with these old attitudes of bloat and minimalist. If we can stop the name calling of things and coalesce around a theme; then, some/many of these members will step up to the task of working together to contribute.

There has been enough ideas thrown out to ID the steps/tasks to move positively.

Here's one that is taken and reworded from some of the comments users have made, but, its worded different than they have expressed. Nonetheless, this is an idea which much of us can identify. The community has been looking at a "Puppy" desktop for quite a while. As such, we have a good idea of the first level of areas found in the taskbar Menu. This is a reasonable CE to strive for as it is so well-known and familiar to everyone. The system and subsystem familiarity would fast-track problem ID and resolutions.

Idea from what is already stated
This suggest that one start for CE, could well be a new PUP which provides the SAME functionality that Puppy, FATDOG, LightHouse64 now provide the community. As such, we define for the experienced among the community a document to guide removal of the things they done want. In fact, the minimalist could be an enormous help in this documented process. The normal/inexperience users would use as is. and the Super-users would add via package management those additional items preferred in their advanced system use. The CE must document this stated direction and the community must pledge itself to rally around the CE to get it out the door. This may just be what's needed to address the 3 groups of users mentioned.

And for heavens sake, let's stop this bad behavior of branding bloat-minimalist and let's recognized the PCs many new users are bringing with them to this community. This affords everyone of us an opportunity to make new friends, AND, CE direction also can help us see a new way of achieving a disto as we "mature" Puppy Linux.

Does the author/members feel we are getting to a point of being able to "move" onto a new channel to begin documenting in preparation for a start?? If so, take a stab at it.

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L18L

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 2505
Location: Burghaslach, Germany somewhere also known as "Hosla"

PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2013, 04:11    Post subject:  

darry1966 wrote:
..As for Jpeps I think is absolutely correct in what he is saying about a modern Pup it should meet with what is required now so as part of the community he is rightly voicing that....

Yes please, start building something for modern computers.
When you will have finished it, this computer will also be an old one. Wink
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 410
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2013, 06:04    Post subject:  

L18L wrote:
darry1966 wrote:
..As for Jpeps I think is absolutely correct in what he is saying about a modern Pup it should meet with what is required now so as part of the community he is rightly voicing that....

Yes please, start building something for modern computers.
When you will have finished it, this computer will also be an old one. Wink


Exactly the progress being made is very slow hence my fustration and Jpeps, lots of eloquent speeches which mean well.

Confusion over direction etc especially Retro computers as well and what the bases for development will be.
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2013, 11:34    Post subject:  

L18L wrote:
darry1966 wrote:
..As for Jpeps I think is absolutely correct in what he is saying about a modern Pup it should meet with what is required now so as part of the community he is rightly voicing that....

Yes please, start building something for modern computers.
When you will have finished it, this computer will also be an old one. Wink


Frankly, I don't see the point of trying to "puppify" something like an android device that has access to a million apps and is specifically adapted to touch screens. Better tools may become integrated as available. Until then, what's wrong with the current method of just fixing and improving what is already available? Devices are now moving to larger screens with more serious applications, so will become increasingly competitive.

MS and Apple are competing with the shareware model by giving away software. Prices should continue to come down.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 776
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2013, 13:30    Post subject: Modularity -- another approach  

Hi All,

Having noticed that each new class of Pups is slower than the last (and I think wireless less capable of picking up weak/distant signals) , I've been reading thru the pUPnGo thread.

If I understand correctly, a big if, the most significant factor which adversely impacts the speed and size of Pups has been the increase in size of glibc and Gtk. Someone, I forget who, recently posted that Pups can use any Gtk version, indeed, several versions. And if I understand amigo's post, glibc is not kernel dependent but can be compiled under any kernel.

Goingnut's method in pUPnGo was to strip a 4.12 pup to a bootable core, but provide user-functionality by placing applications in zdrv which would be loaded at bootup. But he began his work before jemimah developed the adrv. [Jemimah was aware of goingnut's work, and may have been inspired by it]. After that development, Pups could be built to load at initial bootup both an zdrv (which traditionally only contains drivers) and an adrv which contained applications. Thereafter, additional applications could be added by the user via SFS load and/or pet install, (or in Saluki and Carolina using custom-builder to build a new adrv).

So I wonder if, rather than multiple Pups (other than one 32-bit non-pae and one 64-bit), the following would be possible:
(1) a “core” with a pup_xxx_.sfs containing a kernel which would support a wide range of old and new computers, and support (not contain) a wide range of glibc and the nuts and bolts sufficient to boot and load both an adrv and a zdrv;
(2) a zdrv containing the traditional drivers (and firmware); and
(3) a series of adrvs:
one only containing the 1st series of gtk and glibc – for resource poor computers and “speed demons”;
one only containing the 2nd series of gtk and glibc – for a balance of speed and pleasing visual effects;
one only containing the 3rd series of gtk and glibc – for resource rich computers; and
if the second of these isn't able to
(4) one capable of running the rich trove of applications developed for ttuuxxx's Classic Pup 2.14.
Corresponding SFSes could also be available for those desiring to “mix and match”.

Edit: Second thoughts> The initial download of the ISO would contain the "Series 1" adrv. First run would "apologize" for the "archaic" display and advise regarding (after internet setup) downloading "Series 2" or "Series 3" adrv and allowing it to overwrite the current adrv (reboot necessary), or alternatively downoading "Series 2" or "Series 3" SFSes. Each series --along with compatible pets & SFSes-- could be in subfolders on the same repo, to which PPM would provide separate listings. Alternatively, the initial ISO could include a "Series 2 or Pup 2.14 compatible" adrv, with First Run advice for making Pup leaner by overwriting adrv with "Series 1" or more modern with "Series 3".

Additional thoughts:

Perhaps someone with extensive experience could examine the script jemimah wrote for custom-builder and try to figure out whether it could be adapted for use in Pups other than those having a T2 base. If you aren't familiar with custom-builder, what it does is build an adrv by either downloading pets and SFSes or using those already within a specifically named folder, while along the way performing dependency checks. It does the latter, IMHO, better than ppm.

Another avenue perhaps worth pursuing, probably with significant modifications, is a re-examination of the method goingnut's used to create pUPnGo. Essentially, this too involves a script. What it does is copy files from a running Pup 4.12 which are then packed into what will become a new zdrv. Early on, someone attempted to use the script with a 4.31 Pup. That failed. It was guessed that failure resulted from differences in compression used by the versions. If that guess was correct, there are two possible work-arounds: (1) modification of the script, and (2) re-compression of desired pup-xxx-.sfs. I haven't gotten very far into the pUPnGo thread, so I don't know if either of those was attempted, but I doubt it. Developing a “general purpose” script wasn't goingnut's intent nor the focus of the thread.

mikesLr

Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 10 Dec 2013, 17:23; edited 2 times in total
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slenkar

Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2013, 15:09    Post subject:  

I agree with mikeslr
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 776
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2013, 17:59    Post subject: Mix and Match may have to be re-thought  

Hi again,

It was suggested to me via email that "mix and match" could result in a mess. On reflection, my guess is that's probably true regarding glibc. At any rate, it's an unknown, something best tested other than in a Community Edition. On the other hand, we already have pups which use a couple of versions of Gtk. So I'd amend the previous post to provide only for Gtk SFSes for "mixing" with the warning that (a) just adding a higher number gtk may not be sufficient to support applications dependent on a different adrv and (b) SFSes can be unloaded if they generate problems. Users can also be advised that a possible consequence of changing adrv's is that applications installed to a SaveFile (or remaster) may break and application SFSes may not function if they required the glibc of a different adrv.

mikesLr
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