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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Puppy is a pain to install
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1289
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 01 Nov 2013, 15:43    Post subject:  

It took me ages before I updated Lin'N'Win for Windows 7. First I took ages getting a new PC with Windows 7 on it and then when I did I was as scared as you guys about messing with the new boot process.

I did have some hiccups along the way (because I didn't get my drive references right) but I didn't brick my PC. When I got it right Lin'N'Win was updated.

Now regularly using Puppy 5.2.8.005 and Lighthouse 5.0.3G - the latter being used as my Sandbox for the Internet and using Wine to run those (portable) Windows apps I cannot get on Linux or are just too complicated to install on Linux!
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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5010
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri 01 Nov 2013, 16:06    Post subject:  

I assume he`s trying to install from M$ Weeners.
If you`re using Linux and know a little about it, doing this is easy.

# But a suggestion for a Puppy installer for WinBlows users.

If the M$ boot handler can be made to boot Linux then use it.
If not then an auto. install of grub4dos that reliably will boot WinSnows.
This is probably without a doubt the biggest M$ pain in the ass.

If WinGrows will mount an ISO file as it is... ( without "help" ).
Then a Puppy installer app. can then be easily install it this way.
If ISO mounting`s a problem, then offer Puppy in a PkZip file.
.
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2666
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 01 Nov 2013, 16:11    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
I assume he`s trying to install from M$ Weeners.
If you`re using Linux and know a little about it, doing this is easy.

# But a suggestion for a Puppy installer for WinBlows users.

If the M$ boot handler can be made to boot Linux then use it.
If not then an auto. install of grub4dos that reliably will boot WinSnows.
This is probably without a doubt the biggest M$ pain in the ass.

If WinGrows will mount an ISO file as it is... ( without "help" ).
Then a Puppy installer app. can then be easily install it this way.
If ISO mounting`s a problem, then offer Puppy in a PkZip file.
.


I always boot the CD, and see if it's even going to work, before trying to install. If it works, and I like the version of Puppy, I save a frugal savefile. One can just move that into the desired folder, when the "install" is done.

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8041

PostPosted: Fri 01 Nov 2013, 18:06    Post subject:  

The good ole puppy win32 installer can handle windows 7 ok... not sure how up to date with pups it is....an unsupported officially but worthwhile project.
Basically it does the bcdedit for you and add the puppy files all done from a windows program.

The rename boogie involves renaming bootmgr (windows bootloader) to say bootmgr_blip then adding grldr and renaming it to bootmgr , add a menu.lst which includes a chainloader call to bootmgr_blip and you're done.... to reverse just rename the files to what they were, Works ok on vista and win 7. Just the basic gist....

mike
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2666
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 01 Nov 2013, 19:40    Post subject:  

mikeb wrote:
The good ole puppy win32 installer can handle windows 7 ok... not sure how up to date with pups it is....an unsupported officially but worthwhile project.
Basically it does the bcdedit for you and add the puppy files all done from a windows program.

The rename boogie involves renaming bootmgr (windows bootloader) to say bootmgr_blip then adding grldr and renaming it to bootmgr , add a menu.lst which includes a chainloader call to bootmgr_blip and you're done.... to reverse just rename the files to what they were, Works ok on vista and win 7. Just the basic gist....

mike


Cute trick!...

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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5010
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 01:16    Post subject:  

But most average users aren`t up for tricks of any kind... They`re just users.
And if Puppy is "easy to use" ( as advertized ), then it should just work.

RetroTechGuy; I`ve never burned any O.S. CDs at all.
It`s just a waste of effort and a CD if you don`t want it.

I have grub4dos installed, so I just mount the ISO, copy the files, and edit menu.lst
So simple to do, a script should be made to automate it ( there probably is one ).
Puppy`s installer as I recall destroys the partition instead of inserting itself properly.

So many badly needed requirements have been left undone in Puppy. Better organization...
Too much emphasis on so many variant O.S.s, not enough apps., and too many holes.

O.S.s should be small, simple, easy to maintain. Not bloated with apps. users don`t want.
I don`t use most of what Puppy has in it, Mint is 900+ MB.! . What wasted bandwidth.!.!.!
.
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2666
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 02:01    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
But most average users aren`t up for tricks of any kind... They`re just users.
And if Puppy is "easy to use" ( as advertized ), then it should just work.


From that standpoint, then the CD ISO should check the filesystem for errors, by default.

The simplest "installation" is to boot a CD, and have it load the save file from your save location.

I first ran Puppy this way, for several months. I had to modify the image to make it default "fsck" the file system.

Otherwise one could run indefinitely like this.

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8041

PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 07:43    Post subject:  

Hmm add a file, rename 2 and create a menu... yes that could be a script.

Thing is no 2 systems seem to be the same...especially with vista+ with the introduction of recovery and boot partitions, not to mention hidden ones and thats before EFEOIFUBUBGKBGH (whatever).

Point it is a wizard has to try and guess around all this...throw in a couple of existing linux installs with grub2 and its going crosseyed.

Simple tricks are often less prone to problems cos you have to know the layout of the system in front of you at a basic level..Ie what is a hard drive.... otherwise don't install anything..use a live cd or flash stick. When I read the instructions to add grub4dos manually I implemented it successfully ...that was many moons ago when the linux file system was gobbledegook to me and I was still using a cd to boot linux.

I do remember having to use fdisk installing windows 98 as noob so some level of understanding was expected way back then. I know the world is generally being spoon fed but if you get on a bicycle you should at least know how to put the chain back on. A little learning is a good thing in my book and a clear tutorial is worth more than any wizard in my book. (puppies installer wiped my backup of suse)

Look you got me monologging again.... ahhhhhhh

mike
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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5010
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 12:59    Post subject:  

Thoughts and opinions... It`s cool, don`t sweat it.!

Yeah, there`s always exceptions aren`t there?
Still an automated boot installer is a good idea, just have it fail for the "too complex".

Remembering the average user, just a few lines in a script can mean success or failure.


RetroTechGuy; I assume you mean the partition FS. The Save file is checked of course.
And the only way to do "home" is to reboot to ram or a USB drive to get the job done.
Yeah, a boot counter, or just test for the mount count with e2fsck, or whatever.

# Again... Sooooo many things sooo badly needed that have been left undone.
.
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8041

PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 13:52    Post subject:  

Quote:
# Again... Sooooo many things sooo badly needed that have been left undone.

the win32 installer is a great way for noobs to install puppy...but it never got official approval/backing... so thats why its not on tap.
grub4dos was only adopted because someone who managed to gain favour pushed it...otherwise it would have been incorporated 2 years previously.
Attym..need I say more...
If a distros structure, content and features are controlled by personal whims and a buddy system the pile of undones will always remain.

mike
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2666
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 14:39    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
RetroTechGuy; I assume you mean the partition FS. The Save file is checked of course.
And the only way to do "home" is to reboot to ram or a USB drive to get the job done.
Yeah, a boot counter, or just test for the mount count with e2fsck, or whatever.


I run everything as a frugal install.

So my grubbed HDD does this:

Code:
title Puppy Linux 528 frugal
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
kernel /puppy528/vmlinuz pmedia=atahd psubdir=puppy528 pfix=noram,fsck
initrd /puppy528/initrd.gz


(my USB boot does similar, except I have to use the append line)

I do the fsck every time -- no count. It's a tiny 512MB file system, and takes almost no time to scan, unless damaged -- and then you really want to repair it... Either way, the delay is measured in seconds...

I had modded my old 4.31 boot disk to perform a fsck on the save file (whichever one the user selected to load).

For the safety of newbies, "fsck" should really be the default. And under such a system, a newbie who is willing to boot from CD would never actually NEED to migrate their boot sequence to the HDD.

I ran my Win98 system as a "dual boot", ejecting the CD when I wanted to use the Win98 system -- but leaving the disk in by default, so as to boot Puppy.

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 14:40    Post subject:  

mikeb wrote:
Hmm add a file, rename 2 and create a menu... yes that could be a script.

Thing is no 2 systems seem to be the same...especially with vista+ with the introduction of recovery and boot partitions, not to mention hidden ones and thats before EFEOIFUBUBGKBGH (whatever).

Point it is a wizard has to try and guess around all this...throw in a couple of existing linux installs with grub2 and its going crosseyed.


Hmmm... So the naming of the file is "random", but wouldn't the contents be the same? Could one scan the file contents to confirm what it is?

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 15:08    Post subject:  

Well grldr -> bootmgr
bootmgr - > anothername

All that matters is that anothername will be called from grub to boot windows 7. grldr will get booted by the windows mbr which looks for bootmgr.
The file contents don't matter...the code performs a simple name search.

same trick from XP... grldr -> ntldr works too (which gave me the idea to try it on vista.)

mike
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2666
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 15:20    Post subject:  

mikeb wrote:
Well grldr -> bootmgr
bootmgr - > anothername

All that matters is that anothername will be called from grub to boot windows 7. grldr will get booted by the windows mbr which looks for bootmgr.
The file contents don't matter...the code performs a simple name search.

same trick from XP... grldr -> ntldr works too (which gave me the idea to try it on vista.)

mike


I don't have a Vista system, so I don't know what is there...

My Win7 has a small 1st partition, with just a few files at the top level.

The "file" command will tell you what kind of file it is... I just tried it on my Win98, using

Code:
file * | grep Windows


Which reported the programs that were related to Windows:

Quote:
FlashPlayerUpdate.exe: MS-DOS executable PE for MS Windows (GUI) Intel 80386 32-bit
SYSTEM.1ST: Windows 95/98/ME registry file
Windows: directory


That should allow you to find the name of the file which is launched by the boot loader.

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8041

PostPosted: Sat 02 Nov 2013, 15:35    Post subject:  

vista and 7... pretty much the same.

bootmgr is the bootloader .... it does the job ntldr did in the past but in a grub2 like manner (who came first?) .

sequence windows
mbr -> partition bootsector -> bootmgr -> windows nt kernel

grub4dos
mbr -> grldr -> linux kernel

substitution by name changing is possible as either bootloader is at the same software level in the chain...ie preload before OS kernels

if that makes sense

mike
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