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Fatdog64-630rc1 (16 Oct 2013) [CLOSED]
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Billtoo


Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 1925
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct 2013, 10:34    Post subject:  

fatdog wrote:

Meanwhile, please try the script I posted in the first post (radeon-dpm.sh); if you're after higher performance then set it to "high". Otherwise set it to "low" or even "auto" if you wish. If you could do a comparison between these levels it would be appreciated, so we can decide on what power levels we want to ship on the next release. I have done my own tests and the result is inconclusive (ie I don't see much difference in terms of performance, but I do see a lot of difference in power savings). May as well compare with 621 release running with Catalyst.


Here's what hardinfo in Ubuntu 13.10 shows if that's helpful:
Display
Resolution 1920x1080 pixels
Vendor The X.Org Foundation
Version 1.14.3
Monitors
Monitor 0 1920x1080 pixels
OpenGL
Vendor Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
Renderer AMD Radeon HD 8500 Series
Version 4.2.12337 Compatibility Profile Context 13.101
Direct Rendering Yes
bill~$ glxgears
47180 frames in 5.0 seconds = 9435.955 FPS
47671 frames in 5.0 seconds = 9534.074 FPS
47641 frames in 5.0 seconds = 9528.017 FPS
bill~$
I'll try running the script when I get back in fatdog64

EDIT:
I get an error when I run the script:
# sh radeon-dpm.sh
radeon-dpm.sh: line 15: echo: write error: Invalid argument
radeon-dpm.sh: line 16: echo: write error: Invalid argument
#
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2051
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct 2013, 11:24    Post subject:  

Yes something is happening at a lower device level that is effecting Fat32 most, but gparted can't 'see' USB when ISO DD and fix-usb script in iso root directory is attempted.
I reused a slow 2G USB that was setup by a prior puppylinux, it worked but multisession savefile FAILURE occurred so I zeroed the first 100M or so and tried again, got worse, zeroed full device and tried a third time, nothing can see drive that it booted from, can't edit partiton table cfdisk refuses, gparted see's an unformatted drive., but icons are on the desktop.
Hope that helps, a prior used 'fixed' USB works mostly (FAT32 ms fails) but attempts to get a fresh start is unworkable. Will try to reset up this USB after booting the FD621 or 620 and see if its just a 'Old' USB near end of life.
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LateAdopter

Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 136
Location: Reading UK

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct 2013, 13:35    Post subject:  

Hello kirk & jamesbond

Some more evidence that DPM doesn't work on RS780/RS880

I ran the GPU Drawing benchmark from Hardinfo.

5640 - default/high power_profile
3694 - low/mid power_profile
1977 - DPM

Also there were noticeable streaks outside of the window with DPM
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 1876
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct 2013, 14:16    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
I have had several episodes where the full set of drive icons did not display at bootup. Running Redraw Icons fixed it.

This is an old HP Athlon machine with Radeon graphics.

I don't recall ever seeing this in other Fatdogs.

If this happens when you're using a savefile, then this is a known problem.
I think I'm close to fixing it; for the time being just use event manager and increase the "startup delay" value.

Billtoo wrote:

EDIT:
I get an error when I run the script:
# sh radeon-dpm.sh
radeon-dpm.sh: line 15: echo: write error: Invalid argument
radeon-dpm.sh: line 16: echo: write error: Invalid argument
#


You need to specify "high" or "low" or "auto":
Code:
 sh radeon-dmp.sh low
change "low" to "high" or "auto" as needed.
Interesting that your FPS in Ubuntu is 4x Fatdog Sad
Perhaps Ubuntu doesn't use DPM; you can disable dpm by removing /etc/modprobe.d/radeon-dpm.conf
(this is what LateAdopter did).

LateAdopter wrote:
Hello kirk & jamesbond

Some more evidence that DPM doesn't work on RS780/RS880

I ran the GPU Drawing benchmark from Hardinfo.

5640 - default/high power_profile
3694 - low/mid power_profile
1977 - DPM

Also there were noticeable streaks outside of the window with DPM


Thanks for testing.

The result is interesting; have you tried to run the same test after enabling the "high" setting of DPM? Does the number improve?
The default setting is "auto" which means it is supposed to detect the load and/or decide
whether the machine is running on battery/ac and set the GPU clock accordingly, but perhaps this isn't working properly.

Just to be clear however, our main motivation to go with DPM is the lower-power usage and cooler operation - mainly on laptops.
I don't have power meter so I use the temperature readings for that.

In previous kernels I can't get the temp below 65degrees when using radeon; with fglrx the temp usually hovers around 50degrees.
With this DPM, and with the "low" settings; my temp is hovering around 52degrees - something which is more or less confirms your finding
(fglrx hovers around 35W, DPM around 39W). What I can't replicate on my laptop is your finding that the "low" power profile gives out 39W too, for me the "profile" method never works and I always end up with the "high" profile.

Your result shows that somehow the result is not consistent across different cards (mine is dual-radeon - the IGP is evergreen, the discrete is northern islands). Billtoo's one is Southern Islands.

Ted Dog, your case is odd. Have you tried with another flash drive and do you encounter the same problem? Usually clearing the first 100MB should make the flash back into clean slate.

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Billtoo


Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 1925
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct 2013, 15:22    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:

You need to specify "high" or "low" or "auto":
Code:
 sh radeon-dmp.sh low
change "low" to "high" or "auto" as needed.
Interesting that your FPS in Ubuntu is 4x Fatdog Sad
Perhaps Ubuntu doesn't use DPM; you can disable dpm by removing /etc/modprobe.d/radeon-dpm.conf
(this is what LateAdopter did).


# sh radeon-dpm.sh low
maximum battery life
# glxgears
3158 frames in 5.0 seconds = 631.550 FPS
3000 frames in 5.0 seconds = 599.816 FPS
4787 frames in 5.0 seconds = 957.330 FPS
9103 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1820.146 FPS
6387 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1277.354 FPS
#
# sh radeon-dpm.sh auto
automatic performance control
# glxgears
11845 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2368.913 FPS
6648 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1329.470 FPS
3005 frames in 5.0 seconds = 600.891 FPS
2997 frames in 5.0 seconds = 599.230 FPS
#
# sh radeon-dpm.sh high
maximum performance
# glxgears
11730 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2345.961 FPS
4079 frames in 5.0 seconds = 815.514 FPS
2986 frames in 5.0 seconds = 597.074 FPS
2989 frames in 5.0 seconds = 597.793 FPS
#
------------------------------------------------------------------
installed vdpau pet
------------------------------------------------------------------
# sh radeon-dpm.sh low
maximum battery life
# glxgears
11633 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2326.542 FPS
6539 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1307.720 FPS
9005 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1800.504 FPS
5051 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1010.114 FPS
#
# sh radeon-dpm.sh auto
automatic performance control
# glxgears
11833 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2366.569 FPS
10338 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2067.435 FPS
11162 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2232.394 FPS
11930 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2385.970 FPS
#
# sh radeon-dpm.sh high
maximum performance
# glxgears
10603 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2120.588 FPS
7667 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1533.253 FPS
7457 frames in 5.0 seconds = 1491.087 FPS
11383 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2276.449 FPS
#
------------------------------------------------------------------
removed radeon-dpm.conf and rebooted
------------------------------------------------------------------
# glxgears
11475 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2294.875 FPS
12074 frames in 5.0 seconds = 2414.627 FPS
3476 frames in 5.0 seconds = 695.124 FPS
2997 frames in 5.0 seconds = 599.308 FPS
#
GPU Drawing
This Machine 800 MHz 24011.443
------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from the benchmark I ran before removing radeon-dpm.conf
(early this morning)
GPU Drawing
This Machine 3401 MHz 23843.461
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LateAdopter

Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 136
Location: Reading UK

PostPosted: Thu 17 Oct 2013, 15:46    Post subject:  

Hello kirk & jamesbond

I didn't trust myself, so I repeated the experiment more systematically, rebooting each time. Then running the Hardinfo GPU Drawing benchmark.

In the order I did them:

5982 - Profile Default/high
3772 - Profile low/mid

2180 - DPM default (streaks)
5061 - DPM force high
4994 - DPM force low
5082 - DPM force auto
4968 - DPM default (no streaks)

I tried a few more times with DPM default but it didn't go into the broken mode again.

So when it is working, all of the DPM modes are the same. The differences are the normal variability of the test.
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chapchap70

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 123
Location: The Island Of Long (NY, USA)

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 00:42    Post subject:  

Quote:
Make sure to use a new savefile or save folder while testing.
Well that's no fun Laughing Razz


Good Work! The pull down menu (is that what it's called) looks good and there is no "other" category anymore.

The video editor icon was gone because of the new video editor but all I had to do is replace "avidemix2" with "Shotcut" in the edit item; clicking item opens field. ( I thought Kino was the new editor by looking at the screenshot. Confused )

I think the clock setting is UTC by default because it was 4 hours ahead of US Eastern after installation. (save folder) So that fix seems to work.

Nothing broke that I know of. The musescore I compiled myself still works & my Firefox and Tbird work as before.

Edit: Clicking on the thunderbird icon launced the new Seamonkey 2.21. I had thunderbird set up as default email. thunderbird-spot still worked in terminal although I have to reconfigure some things.

Last edited by chapchap70 on Fri 18 Oct 2013, 01:50; edited 1 time in total
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Billtoo


Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 1925
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 00:50    Post subject: Fatdog64-630rc1 (16 Oct 2013)  

Installed to an 8gb SDHC card using fatdog installer.

video-info-glx 1.5.3 Thu 17 Oct 2013 on Fatdog64 630 Linux 3.11.4 x86_64
0.0 VGA compatible controller:
Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI Manhattan [Mobility Radeon HD 5400 Series]
oem: ATI ATOMBIOS
product: PARK 01.00
X Server: Xorg Driver: radeon
X.Org version: 1.12.4
dimensions: 1600x900 pixels (423x238 millimeters)
depth of root window: 24 planes
direct rendering: Yes
server glx vendor string: SGI
server glx version string: 1.4
OpenGL vendor string: X.Org
OpenGL renderer string: Gallium 0.4 on AMD CEDAR
OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 9.2.1
# glxgears
Running synchronized to the vertical refresh. The framerate should be
approximately the same as the monitor refresh rate.
302 frames in 5.0 seconds = 60.333 FPS
300 frames in 5.0 seconds = 59.954 FPS
300 frames in 5.0 seconds = 59.954 FPS
#
GPU Drawing
This Machine 1199 MHz 8265.520
Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU M 430 @ 2.27GHz
Core 0: @1199 1: @1199 2: @1199 3: @1199 MHz
Atheros Communications Inc. AR928X Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Low
GPU Drawing
This Machine 2267 MHz 3998.513
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Auto
GPU Drawing
This Machine 1199 MHz 8697.118
------------------------------------------------------------------
High
GPU Drawing
This Machine 1199 MHz 8653.813
------------------------------------------------------------------
I played a video at cnn set to low and then again set to high, the
quality of the video was fine both times, I could here the fan running
at both settings while the video played.
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Gobbi

Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 02:29    Post subject:  

Thank's kirk , Jamesbond and everyone following the project for going forward with development of Fatdog .
I tried first a frugal install , but it didn't work on my desktop so I burned a DVD RW and chose ' problematic Radeon cards ' and it booted fine .
I've changed theme and font from Control Panel/Desktop/Chtheme GTK theme chooser and lxpanel crashed , that is it's appearance changed with strange colours in it .
I've set a new wallpaper and after that due to lxpanel crash I restarted X . Lx panel turned normal again but the wallpaper turned back to the default one .
These two bugs happend just once , in the beginning.
Trying to change values in lxpanel settings ( icon size , height or font custom colour ) made crash lxpanel but it recoverd after a few seconds with the initial settings .
The fact that lxpanel returned to Puppy version could explain a few things because changing values in lxpanel was always a pain until 610 ( I had to use the complete pet from the repository to do it ) .
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LateAdopter

Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 136
Location: Reading UK

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 06:15    Post subject:  

Hello kirk & jamesbond

I thought I might test glamor next, and see what it breaks...

The Arch Wiki says:

Since xf86-video-ati driver-1:7.2.0-1, glamor is automaticaly enabled with radeonsi drivers (Southern Island and superior GFX cards); with other graphic cards you can use it by adding the AccelMethod glamor to your xorg.conf config file in the Device section:

Code:
 Option   "AccelMethod"           "glamor"

However, you need to add the following section before:
Code:
Section "Module"
   Load "dri2"
   Load "glamoregl"
EndSection


But Fatdog does not use xorg.conf. I see that dri2 and glamoregl are loaded in xorg.log but it isn't used.

If I create an xorg.conf, will fatdog use it? Or is there a better way of enabling it?

Thanks
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 1876
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 12:24    Post subject:  

DPM
----
Billtoo, thanks for testing. The results are strange doesn't really follow the claim that low-->auto-->high power also means low-->auto-->high performance; and from LateAdopter's result the performance definitely isn't higher than the "high" profile.

Note: if you want to use glxgears for testing with radeon, you have to specify vblank_mode=0 like this:
Code:
vblank_mode=0 glxgears
otherwise radeon driver always sync the drawing to the vertical sync so the FPS is almost always 60 or 50 (that's 60Hz or 50Hz, depending on where you live).

The conclusion I get from the tests kindly done by Billtoo and LateAdopter is that for DPM, low/auto/high doesn't make any difference in terms of performance; but it does make a difference in terms of power consumption (=temperature). This is odd (I would expect better performance = more power) but that's what the result speaks. Alex (agd5f) claimed that DPM has better performance because of the ability to ramp up the GPU clock, but I haven't seen it on mine, I don't see it on LateAdopter's and I don't see it on Billtoo's. Its interesting to note from LateAdopter's comment that DPM doesn't always work too Smile

I tested using glxgears (admittedly a poor test tool) and 3D game Scorched3D. One can also test using other first-person-shooter games like Urban Terror, etc. However kirk and I would also like to suggest that if 3D performance is important, one can't go wrong with AMD proprietary driver (fglrx aka Catalyst) - that's the only way to go; and this is true for all GPUs except Intel.

VDPAU
-----
Billtoo wrote:
I played a video at cnn set to low and then again set to high, the
quality of the video was fine both times, I could here the fan running
at both settings while the video played.

I suppose you play the video using Flash. I just found out yesterday that while the DPM settings doesn't matter, installing VDPAU *does* make a difference. Not on video quality, but more on temperature (=power consumption). Apparently for my radeon the VDPAU works, because without it my temperature will be 10degrees higher when playing Flash video.

Savefile
---------

chapchap70 wrote:
]
Quote:
Make sure to use a new savefile or save folder while testing.
Well that's no fun Laughing Razz

Well I don't say that using existing savefile won't always work. The savefile I use today harks back from the days of 600 alphas. But when you're doing testing, if you encounter breakage it will be difficult to pinpoint the cause; because old savefile *may* contain cruft that stops the newer Fatdogs from working (remember, the savefile has higher priority than the basesfs, whatever override/configuration settings and/or newer libs you put into the savefile will hide and/or disable files of the same name from the basesfs). As for me, I happen to know exactly what has changed, so I can anticipate this kind of breakage by removing offending old files - but most people won't know how to do this. So the accurate note is that "using old savefile with newer version may or may not work, depending on various uncontrollable conditions", but this is too long for most people; it is easier to just say "don't use old savefile when you upgrade" Smile

Quote:
I thought Kino was the new editor by looking at the screenshot.
Thanks, that screenshot needs updating Smile

Quote:
Edit: Clicking on the thunderbird icon launced the new Seamonkey 2.21. I had thunderbird set up as default email. thunderbird-spot still worked in terminal although I have to reconfigure some things.
Hmm, need to look again at that that thunderbird pet is doing. Thanks for reporting.

Lxpanel
-------
Gobbi wrote:
Thank's kirk , Jamesbond and everyone following the project for going forward with development of Fatdog .
I tried first a frugal install , but it didn't work on my desktop so I burned a DVD RW and chose ' problematic Radeon cards ' and it booted fine .
You can get these special settings by looking at isolinux.cfg and copy them over for your own grub/syslinux/grub4dos installation so that they will work with your frugal install menus too.

That being said, what radeon card do you have? What kind of crash do you get? I remember we had similar problems during 620 release, and I though we fixed it with the "radeon workaround" stuff.

Quote:
I've changed theme and font from Control Panel/Desktop/Chtheme GTK theme chooser and lxpanel crashed , that is it's appearance changed with strange colours in it .
I've got to try this; but lxpanel has always been a pain. It is nice going if you can get it set up properly, but to reach that ... Smile

Quote:
I've set a new wallpaper and after that due to lxpanel crash I restarted X . Lx panel turned normal again but the wallpaper turned back to the default one .
Odd. How did you set-up the wallpaper? Do you use the RAM layer?

Quote:
These two bugs happend just once , in the beginning.
Trying to change values in lxpanel settings ( icon size , height or font custom colour ) made crash lxpanel but it recoverd after a few seconds with the initial settings .

That's the magic of Fatdog Laughing
No, seriously lxpanel crashed very often in our earlier tests (and when we make some changes that it doesn't like) that we decided to implement some sort of "lxpanel watchdog" that will automatically restart it if it crash. It doesn't happen with kirk, but for me, lxpanel will crash 3 out of 5 times if I close Firefox. Yes, after I'm done with Firefox I close it; and lxpanel goes down with it for no reason ... hence the watchdog Smile Yeah when it crashes it doesn't have the chance to save its settings; so when the watchdog restarts it lxpanel reverts back to the previous setting, which in retrospect is good because if it keeps the settings that causes it to crash in the first place, that wouldn't be nice ...

EDIT: Why don't we ditch lxpanel and replace it with something else? We actually tried this in one or the earlier internal alphas (between me and kirk) - can't remember in 610 or 620 days. We replaced lxpanel+openbox with xfce and found that it was no match in terms of speed and memory/cpu consumption compared to openbox+lxpanel. It had its share of crashes too. So despite its shortcomings, lxpanel stayed, for now.

Quote:
The fact that lxpanel returned to Puppy version could explain a few things because changing values in lxpanel was always a pain until 610 ( I had to use the complete pet from the repository to do it ) .

No we didn't revert lxpanel to an older version. The lxpanel in 630 is the same as in 621/620; the difference is that we fix the XDG menu following the discussion here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=706710#706710 to show the same menu structure as earlier Fatdogs and thus Puppy too. lxpanel in 610 and older were version 0.3.8.1 and the menu structure was fixed - you can't add new categories as such. The lxpanel in 620 onwards are fully XDG compliant and you can add new menus, new categories etc. Assuming it doesn't crash first Laughing

Xorg.conf
-------------
LateAdopter wrote:
I see that dri2 and glamoregl are loaded in xorg.log but it isn't used.
That's interesting, I thought it would be automatically used if the driver is available. At the very least dri2 should be automatically used.

Quote:
But Fatdog does not use xorg.conf.
If I create an xorg.conf, will fatdog use it? Or is there a better way of enabling it?

You can create xorg.conf in /etc/X11 and Fatdog will use it; but the recommended way of doing this is to run xorgwizard (you can run this from existing X session, no need to quit to terminal) and specify the radeon driver. After you save, you will get a file called 20-gpudriver.conf in /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d. Edit this file and add the appropriate options - AccelMethod in your Device section; and add additional Module section to load both modules.

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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2051
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 13:00    Post subject:  

OK I'll spill the beans on what I strongly expect is the root cause of these unrelated glitches since my hunch is playing out as we test it.

PLEASE if you have a slow machine or a machine with a AMD family chipset. USE

expand base to ram boot switch!

base2ram=expand

and run same software with and without it boot switch. Yes it will be faster, but that is not what I'm pointing out.

the sfs decompression routine can only be run on one core for the format used, and is blocking file related IO, since puppyliux and Fatdog are really ran with hundreds of tiny text scripts, and it can be a nest of tiny text scripts. I suspect the odd root cause is a side effect of a long history that small files load time is tiny, but the opposite is true in our case. the time to load a tiny file is the same as a large file, and the more tiny files needed the worse the effect.
The packing format of SFS files group tiny files together and compress them as a set, but no decompress buffer exists like a read-ahead ext3 at the kernel driver level.
So each tiny file gets unpacked each and everytime time called and all the other tiny text files it was packed with are as well, but that effort is wasted.

One solution I found was to create a standard ext3 block-device file and have that as a single file within a SFS. This way the read-ahead buffer IO of ext3 at the kernel level takes care of the repetitive decompression problem of small files within the same directory structure.

OK it's out there... I do not have the skills to due the sfs and double loop mount ext3 inside at the init level, but main developers can quickly
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 3631
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 13:08    Post subject: Decompression subsystem utility during system operations  

Reasonable.
Quote:
... the time to load a tiny file is the same as a large file ...
This would be the case especially for a RAM based system (similar for those of us running via DVDs instead of full installs) which uses RAM as an I/O device via an architected I/O subsystem.

Base2RAM removes the SFS need, once loaded, for this segment of system operations.

Also to note: AMD processors ahve a differen hardware design from Intel. Its instrution staging is based upon that design.

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LateAdopter

Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 136
Location: Reading UK

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 13:34    Post subject:  

Hello jamesbond

Thanks for the suggestion, but...

I tried xorgwizard but it didn't work. I got one of those annoying message boxes where the answer is NOT OK, but it only has an OK button.

After I selected Radeon and OK it said: Cancelled, nothing changed.

Also the terminal window said:

Code:
/usr/sbin/xorgwizard: 1: eval: Syntax error: "(" unexpected
rm: cannot remove `/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/20-gpudriver.conf': No such file or directory


I wonder what I did wrong!
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kirk

Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 1365
Location: florida

PostPosted: Fri 18 Oct 2013, 13:53    Post subject:  

LateAdopter,

You can force glamor to be used by editing /usr/X11R7/lib64/X11/xorg.conf.d/glamor.conf. Make it look like this:

Code:
Section "Module"
   Load  "dri2"
   Load  "glamoregl"
EndSection

Section "Device"
  Identifier             "Device0"
   Option  "AccelMethod"  "glamor"
EndSection


Glamor still has it's share of problems. On my laptop with intel ironlake graphics, openbox/lxpanel causes a segfault with glamor on. JWM does seem to work, but be warned, we don't really support JWM. It's just there for trouble shooting. I'm still doing some testing on this. Thanks.
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