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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Barry Kauler announces his retirement from Puppy
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1047

PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2013, 12:23    Post subject:  

Flash wrote:
It seems to me the first step in keeping Puppy going the way it has, is to post a clear and complete description of how it works, etc., so everyone pulls in the same direction. In other words, detailed specifications of an operating system.

There may already be a wiki page and/or thread in this forum that can be expanded into such a thing.


Agree 100%. It'd be nice if he would lay out a roadmap of sorts as a suggestion for where future development could go. but im pretty sure thats not his style.
My main question though is this... who makes the decision on what releases are Official PuppyLinux Releases.

Someone has to have that role, even if they answer to the community. Barry hasnt passed the baton... so does that mean there will be no more official relases and every relase will be a community release?

The last thing i want to see is people making a grab for power and there being a power struggle, or the community splitting apart into seperate camps.

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jabu2

Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 45
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2013, 13:15    Post subject:  

Barry gave us quite detailed information (from his blog):

I don't plan to just suddenly pull the plug, rather just put Woof (and Puppy) in "maintenance mode" while a few things get sorted out.

"Maintenance mode" means that I will continue to work on Woof, but just focused on essential fixes, rather than any new features.

"Sorting things out", includes who will ....... be responsible for (various puppy matters).

I will likely keep my "hand in", doing some Puppy-related things.


Speculation about how all this will work out is not likely to be productive, altho specific proposals or options could be.

Those interested is using Puppy long-term, are reassured that BK will still "be around", and no doubt others will spring into action to take care of Puppy needs as they arise. Users need to be given confidence in their systems (which is the intention of this post).

Puppy has always been grass-roots / bottom-up in style.

The achievements in terms of usable systems and the momentum is such that any user can confidently go on using it; for the forseeable future, anyway.

Which is all anyone needs or can hope for?

Ready for testing here, thanks to all developers.

ATVB
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2053
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2013, 13:33    Post subject:  

Flash wrote:
It seems to me the first step in keeping Puppy going the way it has, is to post a clear and complete description of how it works, etc., so everyone pulls in the same direction. In other words, detailed specifications of an operating system.
I think I can assure you that despite the best intention, this will never happen (documentation is a *huge* effort comparable to building the OS itself, TLDP took years before it gets to the state that it is, now). Fortunately, it isn't necessary either. We have qualified people who knows the inside out - 01micko, pemasu, playdayz, runtt21, iguleder, etc (apologies to those who I group under "etc") and while each individual may not know 100%, the combined knowledge will be near or already at 100% of what is needed to continue Puppy.

The question is how to retain these talents.

Q5sys wrote:
My main question though is this... who makes the decision on what releases are Official PuppyLinux Releases.

Someone has to have that role, even if they answer to the community. Barry hasnt passed the baton...
Where I live, there is an old joke each time a leadership position is about to go vacant, make sure your mobile phone is always fully charged so that you don't miss the call (from the kingmaker is) Laughing
Joke aside, I'm quite sure Barry will assure that someone / some group will have that role. I'm sure he's now drafting a proper transition plan.

Quote:
so does that mean there will be no more official relases and every relase will be a community release?
There will be, although it may only bugfix releases for next few releases until the new team stabilises.

Quote:
The last thing i want to see is people making a grab for power and there being a power struggle, or the community splitting apart into seperate camps.
It already happens even when Barry is/was still at helm, a few times, so I'm not sure how we can avoid this; I mean, anyone who disagrees with the new "management" can just take the code and fork it ... but perhaps competition is good and whoever survives is worthy of being Puppy successor.

---

I think one thing that people have to accept is "don't try to find Barry's duplicate". Any duplicate will always be a poor copy of the original (unless one can make digital copies...). Rather than trying to find a person who talks like Barry and thinks like Barry of behaves like Barry, (but is not Barry so he/she will not get the respect that Barry enjoys now), lets get someone (or group, or even multiple groups) who are *capable*, *committed* and has/have *long-term vision* for Puppy, who will have the guts to make unpopular yet necessary changes, the ability to do it with minimal/no outside help, and persistence to weather the storm that will ensue during this transition period to bring Puppy into the next era.

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2013, 14:14    Post subject:  

This sea change that Puppy Linux is now facing is also being reflected elsewhere in the technology world at this time.

To digress from Linux for the moment (in order to illustrate a point here), Windows XP is about to see the end of its life-cycle in a matter of weeks from now. Since XP still accounts for about one third of the Windows user base, this leaves a heck of a lot of computer users with a big question i.e. where do I go now? Windows 7 is no longer current and many users simply don't fancy going for Windows 8 at all. Linux may be a port in a storm for them. Ballmer is also about to depart the scene - coincidentally around the same time as Barry's step-down.

Other big changes are also in the offing. Next month Ubuntu Touch is due - not far from the time when Microsoft is due to finalise the Nokia takeover. Whereto now for mobile users if this buyout goes wrong? Apple? Android? Not much choice there. No wonder then that Barry is getting interested in the potential value that Ubuntu could add vis-a-vis the mobile/smartphone sector. So maybe it is the natural step to take and diversify away from the PC operating system and start to target the "phablet" sector instead.

These big changes are inevitable in the larger scheme of things. That's what's called evolution. Puppy is no exception to this.

Somebody recently posed the question in relation to Linux Mint - the no 1 distro on Distrowatch - as to what could happen to Linux Mint without Clement Lefebre as the lead developer. A very similar situation to the one in which Puppy Linux finds itself. As has been suggested above, The Strong will survive. Puppy Linux is unique enough in its implementation to be counted as belonging to the group of The Strong. In the case of Linux Mint, I really wonder if it would survive within the Strong group without Lefebre at the helm. We'll see.

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Last edited by tronkel on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 15:07; edited 2 times in total
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simargl8

Joined: 06 Feb 2013
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2013, 14:44    Post subject:  

If Puppy Linux is so perfect as you claim then why is Barry Kauler quitting, he's not going to
"retire" as claimed in title of this thread, he is actually switching focus to phone-desktop
all-in-one hardware and that read between the lines, means he's abandoning Puppy Linux.
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5680
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2013, 14:55    Post subject:  

I'll just concur with most everything in jamesbond's above post ....... I'm also certain that the control/responsibility of Puppy Linux will be passed on in an orderly transition.It's not like we haven't been through this before...... Laughing
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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Mon 23 Sep 2013, 15:02    Post subject:  

One can only assume that he is "quitting" Puppy Linux because he feels the need to adapt to a changing technological world. Ten years is a lot of time for anyone to invest in anything to do with technology. If I were in his shoes, I would also probably get to the point where I had a gut feeling that a change in emphasis is long overdue. One can get burnout as well after such a long stint. It's no bad thing IMHO. Taking a break from the usual routine is often a necessity - that's simply the way of the world.

No need to get concerned that users will simply get abandoned just yet. As time passes, the PC will slowly fade away in any case - to be replaced in due course with far more advanced stuff. When that time finally comes, Puppy Linux - along with all the other OS's that we are familiar with today - will simply become irrelevant and be relegated to the history books. That's what is known as progress.

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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 958
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep 2013, 05:00    Post subject:  

Perhaps he decided to make the change while it was his own choice and he will still be around to guide the transition.
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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5010
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep 2013, 15:40    Post subject:  

In reality the std. base Puppy isn`t changing all that much. It`s reached a fixed format.
Many variant builders have pushed the envelope much further and advanced Puppy.

I`ve suggested that folks of like thought and interests form groups to develop branches.
This applies to the base Puppy distro. also, but it should be under more scrutiny.

Building distros. is a huge job, and they must have apps. Average users don`t compile.

A group would be a few doing the Puppy variant, and many app. builders contributing.
The app. builders could contribute to the core and many of the different Puppy variants.
Variant groups can concentrate on their O.S.s. App builders specialize in app. types.

# Suggestion: A new forum post section for forming and organizing groups, "Want Ads".
Hopefully a few current variant developers will group and get app. builders to support.

This way Puppy can grow and improve reliably. And most important... Lots of apps.!!!
.
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3956
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Tue 24 Sep 2013, 16:30    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:
As time passes, the PC will slowly fade away in any case - to be replaced in due course with far more advanced stuff. When that time finally comes, Puppy Linux - along with all the other OS's that we are familiar with today - will simply become irrelevant and be relegated to the history books. That's what is known as progress.

I don't think so .

Even if people will have screen wallpapers on their walls with 24/7 internet access , a Kernel and Apps are required to manage it .

I personally don't know about linux touchscreen capabilities , but know that android should work .
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 368
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 04:37    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
In reality the std. base Puppy isn`t changing all that much. It`s reached a fixed format.
Many variant builders have pushed the envelope much further and advanced Puppy.

I`ve suggested that folks of like thought and interests form groups to develop branches.
This applies to the base Puppy distro. also, but it should be under more scrutiny.

Building distros. is a huge job, and they must have apps. Average users don`t compile.

A group would be a few doing the Puppy variant, and many app. builders contributing.
The app. builders could contribute to the core and many of the different Puppy variants.
Variant groups can concentrate on their O.S.s. App builders specialize in app. types.

# Suggestion: A new forum post section for forming and organizing groups, "Want Ads".
Hopefully a few current variant developers will group and get app. builders to support.

This way Puppy can grow and improve reliably. And most important... Lots of apps.!!!
.


Yes this should be about community fits with an open model sharing the load, even average users can be testers though reporting back about software even testing betas of pre-releases anyone can contribute. The load must be shared.
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koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 428
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 05:14    Post subject:  

darry1966 wrote:
sunburnt wrote:
In reality the std. base Puppy isn`t changing all that much. It`s reached a fixed format.
Many variant builders have pushed the envelope much further and advanced Puppy.

I`ve suggested that folks of like thought and interests form groups to develop branches.
This applies to the base Puppy distro. also, but it should be under more scrutiny.

Building distros. is a huge job, and they must have apps. Average users don`t compile.

A group would be a few doing the Puppy variant, and many app. builders contributing.
The app. builders could contribute to the core and many of the different Puppy variants.
Variant groups can concentrate on their O.S.s. App builders specialize in app. types.

# Suggestion: A new forum post section for forming and organizing groups, "Want Ads".
Hopefully a few current variant developers will group and get app. builders to support.

This way Puppy can grow and improve reliably. And most important... Lots of apps.!!!
.


Yes this should be about community fits with an open model sharing the load, even average users can be testers though reporting back about software even testing betas of pre-releases anyone can contribute. The load must be shared.


+1 Smile

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koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 428
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 06:20    Post subject:  

Linux Mint has done a great work on community feedback, maybe we can do something similar... http://community.linuxmint.com/
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1872
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 06:28    Post subject:  

koulaxizis wrote:
darry1966 wrote:
sunburnt wrote:
In reality the std. base Puppy isn`t changing all that much. It`s reached a fixed format.
Many variant builders have pushed the envelope much further and advanced Puppy.

I`ve suggested that folks of like thought and interests form groups to develop branches.
This applies to the base Puppy distro. also, but it should be under more scrutiny.

Building distros. is a huge job, and they must have apps. Average users don`t compile.

A group would be a few doing the Puppy variant, and many app. builders contributing.
The app. builders could contribute to the core and many of the different Puppy variants.
Variant groups can concentrate on their O.S.s. App builders specialize in app. types.

# Suggestion: A new forum post section for forming and organizing groups, "Want Ads".
Hopefully a few current variant developers will group and get app. builders to support.

This way Puppy can grow and improve reliably. And most important... Lots of apps.!!!
.


Yes this should be about community fits with an open model sharing the load, even average users can be testers though reporting back about software even testing betas of pre-releases anyone can contribute. The load must be shared.


+1 Smile


+0.75 Laughing

Until now, Barry and project leaders took care of that "standard base", while individuals contributed packages and new applications. I'm against branches - I like the terminology of "teams" better: "kernel team", "UX team", "packaging team", etc'. Everybody works on one, unified project (i.e not separate branches), but each team strives to achieve all goals of the next version, in one aspect.

I think we should create some sticky topic with contact details (i.e e-mail) of all forum members who want to be recognized as developers and have both the time and willingness to contribute. Such a list should contain a list of all areas each developer wants to work on (i.e kernel, automation, package management, packaging, translation, testing, etc').

That could be nice if we want to do some evaluation of our available human resources - that's the biggest problem of community distros, after all Smile

By the way - I think we should set up trac or something similar, so we have a roadmap for each version. Each developer proposes a feature he or she is going to implement with help from his or her team, then we measure progress using some web application all developers have access to.

It's nice for small teams, since it makes it easier for coordinators to do that "time vesus man power" calculation and answer the eternal "postpone to next release, delay this one or drop that feature" question when time's up. Smile

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 12:44    Post subject:  

Iguleder wrote:

Quote:
I like the terminology of "teams" better:


Terminology is only terminology - a linguistic concept.

Barry's impending retirement has implications for the future of Puppy Linux that raises some questions that are even more fundamental than the management style of the project. Sure, there will have to be some sort of team/community structure in place in order to create an ISO called Puppy Reborn or some such other similar title.

As far as can be established, there is no Barry Kauler V2 walking around on planet Earth. Realistically there is probably then no chance that anyone would be able to step into the shoes of Barry V1 and carry on as before.

Would it not be better to simply accept this reality and start a completely new base for Puppy Linux from scratch? Any prospective Barry 2 would need to be a developer who has previously created a Linux distro from a clean sheet - just as Barry V1 did with the original Puppy. The only thing that would remain of Puppy original, would be its philosophy of "keep it minimalist, smart and full-featured" - in other words, a completely reborn Puppy Linux that Barry 2 plus his project members would be comfortable to work on and develop further..

The reason I say this, is that Barry V1 is really the only person alive on the planet who, is in the position of being able maintain the base of the present Puppy and also carry on with the truly creative ideas that would be required to take this distro into the foreseeable future.

Anyone whose CV fits the job description of Barry V2 please step up and make yourself known!

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