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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Barry Kauler announces his retirement from Puppy
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Sun 06 Oct 2013, 18:41    Post subject:  

starhawk wrote:
jpeps wrote:
As Steve Jobs often noted, the user shouldn't have to know anything.


I (respectfully) profoundly disagree. In the earlier days of PCs, if you had one you knew what you were doing. Period. There wasn't much choice.

Now people don't want to learn anything


Jobs was always noting that users know far more than he did about the computer, and thus his philosophy was to follow the users direction. His point was that the computer shouldn't get between the user and what they were trying to use it for. Go to any elementary school, and check out what the 4th and 5th graders are doing. That's what Jobs did back in the 70's.
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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Sun 06 Oct 2013, 18:44    Post subject:  

To put it another way, the user just wants to get their work done and log off.
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anewuser

Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun 06 Oct 2013, 19:11    Post subject:  

Using puppy without harddisk (entirely off ram) Computer is from 2004. Third world country and blah blah. How I saw puppy:

Wary lowest end capability puppy (2002 or older. Works on newer hardware) The nicest alternative to using old hardware against W95, W98, WinME.

Precise middle end capability puppy aka a junior (2002 up to 2010. Works on newer hardware drops some compatibility with older hardware)

Racy High end capability puppy (2006 up to 2012. Drops even more compatibility with older hardware. Aims to give users and puppy more beef and power, no longer a puppy but a full grown dog, even a wolf!)

Price and availability might not be an issue in G8 or EU countries regarding ram, hdd, etcetera, but it certainly is an issue in the third world where machines from 1998 or older still run or are made to work and even when parts are more expensive now that when they were new due to scarcity. That might not be an issue for a hobby maintainer, and for a project that started as an fun experiment which worked.

Puppy was and still is a nice alternative.

Thank you Mr Barry and the community.
PD:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Linux_distribution
gives one an idea of other distros in the "same" vein but I have not, nor I plan to try any of them in the future. Puppy just works, or usually just work, and with pet packages for office suites, the casual user in need knows where to look. I came from DSL and puppy (wary or racy) are even easier to use that DSL

My expectations? Something targeted at a low end capability, or in the other and opposite direction, something targeted at a middle or high end capability set up but without the BLOAT of current major distros (read ubuntu 12.04) So centralized, two official distros at most, everything else would be specialiced (media player centered, security centered, rescue os centered, developer centered, and the bestest of all puppyarcade Very Happy Very Happy puppy was ahead of steam box Very Happy ) is what makes puppy so...disperse atm. I think Mr Barry went for the basics of a common abstraction or base in which other developers built upon their own expectations and vision. But a general abstraction was needed first: First woof, then wary/experimental builds, and so on.

ty for reading. I'll continue to use puppy as long as it works on the set up I use it.
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2013, 18:53    Post subject:  

It's nice to see some names from the earlier days of Puppy on this thread.

Especially welcome is Nathan F. I think I agree with most of what you say.

There is a pardigm shift happening in computing at the moment. I try to fathom where it will lead but I know as much as the next man about that!

It seems that the age of consumers and producers using the same machines (i.e. PC architecture) is disappearing. Tablets and phones are for consumers of content and the apps are pretty limited in what they do, compared to what a program on a PC can do. Producers of content need different machines, currently desktops, but possibly in the future back to dumb terminals hooked to the powerful applications in the cloud.

Since there are more consumers than producers there is a rapid rush to service their needs and us producers become a niche.

Also changing rapidly is the shift from open systems back to closed hardware and walled gardens where you get your media. Jobs may have said the user shouldn't have to know anything. If the users don't know anything then they don't know how much better it may be outside of the Apple confines. We mustn't educate people or they might start buying something else!

In this future world the Operating System concept has changed. Microsoft Windows as it was pre version 8, Mac on the desktop and most Linux distributions, including Puppy, are not relevant.

I don't see a need for further developing a desktop OS like Puppy into the future because future concepts are not going to work with desktops. They are going to work with touch enabled devices. Maybe this is why Barry has decided to stop development now. The desktop needs have been met - there is nothing more to do on the desktop.

The future lies in a different kind of OS that needs a completely fresh start. Just as Gnome 3 is nothing like Gnome 2, Unity is nothing like Gnome 2, Windows 8 is nothing like Windows 7 then Puppy developed for touch devices will be nothing like Puppy today. I am not even sure free (as in freedom) software can survive in future world. I hope so.

In the meantime I still have a need for a desktop and it is perfectly serviced by my preferred choices of Puplets that I can get now. I can only thank Barry for his work in getting such an amazing OS together and for the community for adding to it the extra bits I needed to float my particular boat.
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2013, 19:11    Post subject:  

ICPUG wrote:
Tablets and phones are for consumers of content and the apps are pretty limited in what they do, compared to what a program on a PC can do.


Probably more the reverse, which is why they're replacing PCs. Perhaps a bit true a few years ago, but the mobile device has opened a zillion opportunities that developers have responded to.

ICPUG wrote:

Jobs may have said the user shouldn't have to know anything.

He didn't . He said the users knew far more about computers then he did, and to follow their directions for creating a great tool. Users shoudn't need to know things like what permissions need to be reset before they're able to print.
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 9106
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2013, 19:50    Post subject:  

jpeps wrote:
Users shoudn't need to know things like what permissions need to be reset before they're able to print.

Smart phones and tablets are no different than PCs. If you download an app from an unapproved source, bad things may happen.
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2013, 20:51    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
jpeps wrote:
Users shoudn't need to know things like what permissions need to be reset before they're able to print.

Smart phones and tablets are no different than PCs. If you download an app from an unapproved source, bad things may happen.


In that case, you won't be out of a job Smile

worse case scenario: your printer drivers get re-routed through cups.
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Mon 07 Oct 2013, 23:26    Post subject:  

Schmidt: Google Now approach could work for businesses

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57606421-93/schmidt-google-now-approach-could-work-for-businesses

"the third phase (of enterprise disruption) is driven by tablets and it looks like the majority of enterprise computing will happen on mobile devices. It broke the model. It looks to me you're going to have to dismantle existing infrastructure to work in the mobile model. It's happening right before your eyes"
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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 2076
Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Thu 10 Oct 2013, 13:33    Post subject:  

pls see here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=89180

and try to download Puppy 0.4 and see if you can start it on you modern PC!

if not, look at the screen shot in the directory Wink

this or about this was the departure of an adventure!
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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct 2013, 09:54    Post subject:  

I have to say, in looking closer I'm going to revise my earlier statements somewhat. Some of the apps for Android are in fact becoming very capable. However I stand by the concept that the desktop paradigm is not dead, but will probably evolve in unexpected ways. I tend to think there will remain a market for more powerful machines, and a preference among certain users for a physical keyboard and probably a physical mouse too. Although for my part I'd be more than happy to say goodbye to the mouse entirely.

It is also important to realize that while right now a lot of mobile development is closed, the markets have not solidified to the point where everything is locked down. That means that right now it is extremely important for talented developers to be developing open source alternatives to the locked down vendor specific software ecosystem.

I tend to think that traditional Linux distributions can and will evolve for the new realities and markets. Gnome, Unity, and E are all positioned to make the shift with a minimum of work. What would be welcome are more lightweight solutions for a touch enabled experience.

I personally like working fullscreen, even when using a traditional stacking WM. I've grown accustomed to using tiling wm's also. The mobile and tablet experience generally requires a different approach to switching between apps than a traditional stacking WM, but there are actually not that many other things that would need to change. Certain behaviors of desktop apps don't make sense on a mobile device but those aren't that difficult to address, and in some cases are already being addressed.

A good example of the above would be Gimp and Dia. Both applications have been notorious seemingly forever for using a multiple window interface. Both apps released integrated versions of their interfaces almost at the same time, with the toolbox to one side and a tabbed view of multiple open projects.

As for distribution Linux started out being distributed by floppy disk image. When optical media became widespread ISO images took over. I think flash images will begin to take over in the coming years. No big deal.

In short don't write off Linux and the free software ecosystem. It's not going away. It has evolved before and will again.

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct 2013, 11:19    Post subject:  

Nathan F wrote:


I personally like working fullscreen, even when using a traditional stacking WM. I've grown accustomed to using tiling wm's also. The mobile and tablet experience generally requires a different approach to switching between apps than a traditional stacking WM, but there are actually not that many other things that would need to change. Certain behaviors of desktop apps don't make sense on a mobile device but those aren't that difficult to address, and in some cases are already being addressed.

A good example of the above would be Gimp and Dia. Both applications have been notorious seemingly forever for using a multiple window interface. Both apps released integrated versions of their interfaces almost at the same time, with the toolbox to one side and a tabbed view of multiple open projects.


Typically, android devices use a one-window approach to save space, but multi-window has already been developed.

Review: Samsung's new Galaxy Note tablet offers PC-like multitasking

http://www.contracostatimes.com/business/ci_24275914/review-samsungs-new-galaxy-note-tablet-offers-pc?source=rss

re: window management: android devices officer a range of desktops that can be selected via clicking on a desktop app. My favorite is Nova, which allows icons to be grouped, a scrolling taskbar at the bottom of the window, and multiple manage/view options
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mrpete

Joined: 11 Oct 2013
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct 2013, 11:57    Post subject: Barry Kauler stepping down.
Subject description: Sad but true as leader.
 

tronkel wrote:
Puppy has never really been a cohesive community - because it didn't have to be cohesive. Barry was always there to override any lack of cohesiveness on the part of the community.

The situation that Puppy finds itself in now cannot surely be a surprise to anyone though. Any project where the leader is the de-facto sole developer and decision maker is in danger of disappearing if the leader is no longer there.

In the case of Barry, there exists no one who can realistically replace him. Only he can maintain the Woof scripts that lie at the centre of Puppy's build environment. Same is true of other scripts as well.

Any replacement for Barry would have to be someone who is as good at Bash scripting as he is. With this tool, Barry has used every trick in the Linux book - moreso than any other Linux distro - to come up with the implementations that makes Puppy so unique in the Linux firmament. Think Mutisession, frugal install, PPM system, Xorgwizard Puppy universal installer etc. - and then there are the patched kernels

Sure, the PC world is going downhill for various reasons - but this sector is not going to completely disappear any time soon.

In the shorter term, those who teach and support users with Linux are going to see a big hole that used to be occupied by Puppy. It's going to be missed.

A concentrated and very focused effort is going to have to be made if we want our favorite Linux tool to continue to be available to us. Time to get your thinking caps on guys (and gals).


I agree on this quote. He states this when introducing Puppy for first time users. It's an historical dictatorship role in decision making for which seems at first BLUNT and ignorant. But to Barry's defense, I can understand his point(Without it, he'd probably be picked apart seeing the idea is a linux distro). Simply, it's his founding project on a linux implementation(preserving the projects identity). Keeping all or most of the original concepts that were originally conceptualized(By him). Such as the minimalist idea. Which from my point of view is keeping close to old school computer concepts(sciences). Such as keeping a small memory foot print. And minimalist tools to use while interfacing with larger data bases(I.E. The internet-->This is UNIX). This is derived from original computer systems. Where memory and system capabilities where limited by technological limitations of the time and >N0 internet< . Which by today's standards works very good in practice with the internet(Voila, Puppy Linux). Though, I found puppy late in its cycle. I still got the idea around what Barry and his team achieved by having history with computers myself. I like Puppy because it's just that simple to use. And he and the puppy team supports everything outta of the box(most other distros have some flaw which requires a dedicated connection to resolve). And keeping the modularity concept that linux(regardless of what flavor) has as a core was truly awesome. Each squash is like plugging a software cartridge in-- adding more support. Even down to the programming environment...Just awesome!

Though, some will not agree with my post. This is how I have become to understand Puppy Linux as a linux distro in the short time of using it.

To those claiming the PC is on the way out. Evolution is taking over.etc.,etc(GET SOME BACKBONE! Evil or Very Mad ). I feel it's more regression than evolution Crying or Very sad . Though, miniaturization has changed the PC market drastically. It's also limiting functionality in order to resell it. I do think its nice to have smaller devices that do not produce a lot heat. But I want something I can use and create ideas on Question . Not just to forum forage or watch videos. With newer devices whether smart phones or tablet based. They make a great interface for web based interactions but when it's time get hands on they just can't keep up with a keyboard/mouse/programming environment. Linux or any other OS regardless of argument can have not made it this far in history with minimalist interactive media concepts of today! And to turn your backs on something after USING it for years instead of truly embracing it(or a least allowing others to continue to learn and have other choices). Is ridiculous! NOT evolution!.

Sorry, for the long speech but it's my observation not an argument(though a little emotional)..

Thanks, Pete
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct 2013, 12:30    Post subject: Re: Barry Kauler stepping down.
Subject description: Sad but true as leader.
 

mrpete wrote:
And to turn your backs on something after USING it for years instead of truly embracing it(or a least allowing others to continue to learn and have other choices). Is ridiculous! NOT evolution!.

Developers are working for free, so continue to move to projects that hold personal interest for them. Barry expressed interest in "puppyfying" Ubuntu, because that's what he's currently using himself. I recall leaving DSL because I wanted to use software that required an updated kernel. Most recently, I re-wrote my office software because I wanted to use a touch screen on a mobile device with speech-to-text functions and cloud integration. That sounds to me like natural evolution.
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2538
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 11 Oct 2013, 14:43    Post subject: Re: Barry Kauler stepping down.
Subject description: Sad but true as leader.
 

mrpete wrote:
: . Not just to forum forage or watch videos.
Love the term "forum foraging". Haven't heard that one before. I think it is a good description of the way many young people use their online devices. I'm not sure they've heard of anything other than Facebook and youtube....
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mrpete

Joined: 11 Oct 2013
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun 13 Oct 2013, 09:07    Post subject: Re: Barry Kauler stepping down.
Subject description: Sad but true as leader.
 

jpeps wrote:
mrpete wrote:
And to turn your backs on something after USING it for years instead of truly embracing it(or a least allowing others to continue to learn and have other choices). Is ridiculous! NOT evolution!.

Developers are working for free, so continue to move to projects that hold personal interest for them. Barry expressed interest in "puppyfying" Ubuntu, because that's what he's currently using himself. I recall leaving DSL because I wanted to use software that required an updated kernel. Most recently, I re-wrote my office software because I wanted to use a touch screen on a mobile device with speech-to-text functions and cloud integration. That sounds to me like natural evolution.


From your point of view jpeps: I agree and I too do the same thing(I develop as well and not just on one platform). But in extreme conditions it goes very sour. And in the end it is usually not good when dealing with idea's to do with choices. Plus, I'd would like to have the same choices in future as I do now. And this is why I think it's important to learn from the past=---=and keep a heritage. And the PC world is no exception. ---Evolution to me is not about pruning out what you no longer need while using the same resource to get to that decisive point of obsoletion. Though, my last comment might be extreme. I've had experience in the past on these types of discussions when significant changes happen to the industry. It rarely comes down to the people discussing the changes and a lot of important lessons and idea's are lost in the ruins. And this is all I'm really trying to say.. I think tablets and small devices have great uses. Their a part of the computer world and that's not going to change. But since most of us on the forum have such a rich past in the PC field and with technology(which one has to emit. If computer history was reversed and the tablet and other small devices as we now them today where the forerunners. This discussion would be a lot different.). And for me personally, I want the same choices as I have/had with modern or past PC's. Regardless, of the idea of miniaturization as it pertains to the PC market of today or future.

@all: Remember this has happened already with software. Remember the Windows/Linux controversy that still plagues us today. Choice...While Linux holds most of it's relevant legacy to be experienced by all levels. Windows is cutting most of its legacy out in favor of short term marketing idea's. And sub-setting other legacy parts that where available in the past as buying options today. In Windows 7's case; the ability to change the desktop background at the basic level. Rolling Eyes

Thank you for the response jpeps. The point is well considered.
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