The world has changed

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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Volhout
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The world has changed

#1 Post by Volhout »

Hi Puppy developers,

I ran into this comment from Koulaxisis, on the puppy derivative thread for Slacko 5.5 XL.
I really love Puppy and i have installed it in many friends' computers. But they are always nagging about the same thing: Puppy is not really ready by default for usage by a newcomer. They have to do a lot of customizations, extra setups and downloads - and they don't have the time or the will to do so! That's why i did this remaster... Most of them were about to stop using Puppy, they wanted something more "ready-to-do-the-job". So, i created this to make their computing life easier... and after testing it a lot, i decided to share with everybody, not only my friends.
This piece of text reflects what I have gone through few years ago, when I tried to recommend puppy to others. And I did give up (I was weak). I use puppy myself ... but recommend others to install Mint.....

The world has changed. 10 years ago puppy was great because it was good solution for people that came from Win98 or people tired of XP updates. And since then puppy has not really changed (I know this will upset many many people that spend endless hours to bring out new versions) from a USER perspective. For example.look at what the puppy 2.x and 4.x series could do, and how it looked. Only thing that really changes was the drop of analog modems, sometime SCSI, in favor of WIFI and such.

Nowadays people use W7, W8, Android, Apple, and do not accept that they will have install a programs for everything the are used to doing. i.e. to be able to make a (powerpoint) presentation. They are used to full office suits. They are used to "instant quality", and throw it away just as easily if something isn't meeting their expectation.

This should seep through into puppy's community. The besides the quality of OS stability, there is an additional demand for quality of usability OOTB.

Puppy has so many good things, but some of them are blocking off new users. Why is it that the puppy releases that contain quality programs like Libreoffice and Gimp are DERIVATIVES. Only because they are larger than the minimum size ... ? I realy see a good future for the larger puppies. Please make them "mainstream".

Look at quality programs: the best of the best. Look at ergonomics and eye candy. Users are used to this with their experience in Android (phones) and W7 and Apple. Don't do less. And if it gives an iso that is 670Mbyte.... so be it. But it is complete OS. Some developers already understand this (Lighthouse Mariner, PhatSlacko, etc...). But why are these "the derivatives" ?

This is a revolution like we had 10 years ago when we had to pull linux from command line to mouse based. And now "mouse based" should be perfected.

I keep believing in puppy, will continue to use it ..... And maybe there comes a time when all my friends PC's run Puppy, and not Mint.

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koulaxizis
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#2 Post by koulaxizis »

First of all, congratulations for this wonderful and sincere post! I totally agree, there should be an official "fat/mainstream/user-friendly/ version if we want to keep people to Puppy and bring some newcomers. Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora etc are not better than Puppy, they are just friendlier. We can do the same and we can do it better!
[b]Christos Koulaxizis[/b]
[i]Woof woof from Greece![/i]

[color=darkred][url=https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppystuff/][ Puppy Stuff Repository ][/url][/color]

starhawk
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#3 Post by starhawk »

I have to say I agree. Puppy usually does need some occasional tinkering to behave. It's a hot rod not a Honda :P

There are a few Puplets/derivatives that are able to provide a turnkey Puppy experience. (Turnkey = power it up and everything's there and ready to go) IIRC our resident boat-rocker, gcmartin, keeps a list in his back pocket.

Actually, IIRC there was a thread about those that he started, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe it was one of the ones that was deleted... or my skills with the forum search are lousy still.

gcmartin

#4 Post by gcmartin »

Thanks Starhawk for the plug.

Volhout and Koulaxizis, "Thanks" for helping to open our eyes.

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6502coder
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I could not disagree more

#5 Post by 6502coder »

I agree that Puppy is not for the average, non-technical computer user. And that is EXACTLY why it SHOULD NOT be fat by default!

Puppy is great because of what it is -- a lightweight but fully usable and versatile OS. That makes it a good basis for all the many wonderful derivatives that customize it in various ways. The reverse approach -- taking a fat distro and then trying to strip out all the stuff that a particular user doesn't need, is much harder.

For people who want a fat Linux distro OOTB there are plenty of choices out there. I do not understand why so many Puppy users are so obsessed with "defending" Puppy and "converting" other people to Puppy. I choose to use Puppy for the same reason I choose to drink the beer I drink -- because I like it, and I could not care less who does or does not agree with my choices.

I would much rather see Puppy remain the great little tinkerer's OS it is, than become just another bloated, chrome-plated distro for technically-challenged appliance operators.

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sunburnt
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#6 Post by sunburnt »

# One of the biggest Puppy problems is apps., they are not very portable.
Packages of apps. must work, users cannot be expected to "fiddle".!

The recent Puppy`s based on Ubuntu and Slack are of good parentage.
But only 1 parent would be better. Then 2 app. versions are not needed.
This gives a common base of libraries, so should be no lib. version problems.

# Another big problem is the Save file setup, better to have a Save dir.
Much simpler, and there`s no shutdown delay when booted from a USB.
.

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koulaxizis
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#7 Post by koulaxizis »

sunburnt wrote:# One of the biggest Puppy problems is apps., they are not very portable.
Packages of apps. must work, users cannot be expected to "fiddle".!

The recent Puppy`s based on Ubuntu and Slack are of good parentage.
But only 1 parent would be better. Then 2 app. versions are not needed.
This gives a common base of libraries, so should be no lib. version problems.
I agree!! It's a problem indeed when we compile an app into one puppy and doesn't work in another. It's almost waste of time if can't be used by everyone!
[b]Christos Koulaxizis[/b]
[i]Woof woof from Greece![/i]

[color=darkred][url=https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppystuff/][ Puppy Stuff Repository ][/url][/color]

Volhout
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Tinkerer or User

#8 Post by Volhout »

It is obvious there are two camps. To be honest, I am still using Puppy because I see this as a hobby. I don't mind to install a new version, and accept to loose my save file once in a while, and start again. I don't mind to install from scratch and take the efford to tailor it. It is (one of) my hobbies.

But I spend the night on the couch if our PC malbehaves. Or if my wife can't open the docx she gets from a colleague. I am voting for a puppy she can use. I want to give her the snappy experience, and I don't want to spend my time in fiddeling with registers in Windows that I have to keep alivge on the system because no puppy that is complete enough to satisfy her needs ever gets stable. The fat puppies are not in focus, are not maintained, and only get limmitted testing. What is worse even: the pet's and sfs that should allow you to complete your system only get limitted or occasional testing.

There is a possibility to get the best of both worlds.

Tinkerens (developpers) want the latest of the greatest. And they WANT to get their hands dirty. Users DON'T want to download and install and update their system.

What if ...... under the puppy flag (mainstream, sanctioned by Barry) once in every 2 years, there is a well tested FAT version of puppy. The one for computer users. The one that has it all. This could coincide with a LTS release. Like we had Lucid, based on Ubuntu LTS. And we have Precise, based on Ubuntu LTS. There could be a Precise XL. With the eye candy, the quality packages. And that would be the release until there is another LTS. In the mean time there would be numerous other small puppies. Like we have now.

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greengeek
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#9 Post by greengeek »

koulaxizis wrote:I agree!! It's a problem indeed when we compile an app into one puppy and doesn't work in another. It's almost waste of time if can't be used by everyone!
I think this is one reason why it can be very valuable to have "fat" puppies like your XL - the more that is included the less there is a need to hunt for compatible packages - the fat puppy stands intact as a complete system "as is"...

I actually look for both types of puppies - sometimes barebones puppies and sometimes fat ones. It depends on the user I need to provide for, and what overall functionality is required (and what hardware is available...)

At the moment I really need a fully integrated pup for a psych patient who can't handle problematic issues so I'm going to give your XL a try and see how good the wordprocessing and printing functionality is. Thanks for building it!

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koulaxizis
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#10 Post by koulaxizis »

Volhout wrote:What if ...... under the puppy flag (mainstream, sanctioned by Barry) once in every 2 years, there is a well tested FAT version of puppy. The one for computer users. The one that has it all. This could coincide with a LTS release. Like we had Lucid, based on Ubuntu LTS. And we have Precise, based on Ubuntu LTS. There could be a Precise XL. With the eye candy, the quality packages. And that would be the release until there is another LTS. In the mean time there would be numerous other small puppies. Like we have now.
This could be a solution that will please everyone!

greengeek wrote: I actually look for both types of puppies - sometimes barebones puppies and sometimes fat ones
Me too! But not everyone has the time, the knowledge and the "geekiness" to try 20 puplets until find the one he can use! The average user needs a user-friendly distro that just works. And i am sure that we can provide that (following Volhout's idea, for example)!
greengeek wrote:At the moment I really need a fully integrated pup for a psych patient who can't handle problematic issues so I'm going to give your XL a try and see how good the wordprocessing and printing functionality is. Thanks for building it!
I hope you will find it handy! If you have anything to suggest and make it better, please do so! :)
[b]Christos Koulaxizis[/b]
[i]Woof woof from Greece![/i]

[color=darkred][url=https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppystuff/][ Puppy Stuff Repository ][/url][/color]

starhawk
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#11 Post by starhawk »

I like Volhout's suggestion as well -- one Pup for the users, several for the tinkerers. That strikes me as a good balance -- which is something else to strive for in many if not all things.

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greengeek
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#12 Post by greengeek »

While we are talking about useful versions of puppy - does anyone have a "ready-to-go" iso of a kiosk puppy? (ie a puppy that is locked down so users cannot damage it.)

I know shadower.sc has posted threads detailing how to do it but it is certainly daunting for newcomers to achieve it and I thought it would be nice to add some "kiosk" puppy isos to the list so that there are 3 categories - eg: 'barebones' etc for tinkerers, 'fat' puppies for the users who need maximum capabilities, and 'kiosk' for the situations where the user cannot be trusted...

(even just one kiosk puppy would probably satisfy this user:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=87850)

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sunburnt
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#13 Post by sunburnt »

greengeek; Usually "kiosk" means just a browser and not much more.

RoxApp style no-install apps. are easy to up-grade, or have many versions.
And the best part... No-install apps. don`t take Save file space ( very little ).

My current Puppy-5.4.X.5 has SeaMonkey, and I have Rox style apps. of
Firefox and Chrome on it too. I`ve had all 3 running at the same time.

Users or tinkerers, there`s really no difference in the Puppy version.
User versions can be thought of as fully developed GUI driven O.S.s.

Fat Puppies ( big...) if they`re made properly require less app. installing.
But the same problems adding apps., you have to be able to add apps.!

Fat or bare bones, the reason apps. don`t work is Puppy version differences.
Across Ubuntu and Slack versions, getting apps. to work is hit or miss.

Multiple parented Puppy versions require multiple sets of apps. to be made.
It`s just too much wasted labor reinventing the wheel over and over again.

The Puppy community is scattered, inventive but little over-all direction.
The Ubuntu versions are a good base to focus on and to rally around.

### I`ve campaigned for barebones with RoxApps as it`s package base.
It has no more than the user needs, and sooo easy to upgrade apps too.
.

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ardvark
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#14 Post by ardvark »

Hi all...

I agree with Volhout, I found the software offerings in Wary 5.5 to be extremely limited as well as the OS itself to be bit buggy. This definitely needs to be changed. At the same time, the role Puppy plays in helping extend the life of older PC's is a very important (and much needed) one. I think this should remain the focus. Any changes should strive to keep to this principle. Then whatever the individual end user chooses to make of his/her copy (upon installation) is their choice. :)

Regards...
Our Lord and Savior [url=http://peacewithgod.jesus.net/]Jesus Christ[/url] loves and cares about you most of all!

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koulaxizis
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#15 Post by koulaxizis »

ardvark wrote:I found the software offerings in Wary 5.5 to be extremely limited as well as the OS itself to be bit buggy. This definitely needs to be changed. At the same time, the role Puppy plays in helping extend the life of older PC's is a very important (and much needed) one. I think this should remain the focus. Any changes should strive to keep to this principle. Then whatever the individual end user chooses to make of his/her copy (upon installation) is their choice.
Wary is targeting users with old hardware who just want to revive their computer to do some work. So let's say that it's OK with the limited software, however it could be expanded a little with light apps. But Racy could be more up-to-date, with software variety and ready to work, without binaries from other distros. An "original" and always "fresh" woof-based Puppy.
[b]Christos Koulaxizis[/b]
[i]Woof woof from Greece![/i]

[color=darkred][url=https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppystuff/][ Puppy Stuff Repository ][/url][/color]

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ardvark
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#16 Post by ardvark »

koulaxizis wrote:Wary is targeting users with old hardware who just want to revive their computer to do some work. So let's say that it's OK with the limited software, however it could be expanded a little with light apps.
Hi koulaxizis...

I think this might be true for some folks but I know if Wary was on my personal system, I would like a LOT more choices. I can't be the only one! :lol:

Also, I didn't understand what specifically you download to access your repository. There are several files to choose from after "usr."

Regards...

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koulaxizis
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#17 Post by koulaxizis »

ardvark wrote:
koulaxizis wrote:Wary is targeting users with old hardware who just want to revive their computer to do some work. So let's say that it's OK with the limited software, however it could be expanded a little with light apps.
Hi koulaxizis...

I think this might be true for some folks but I know if Wary was on my personal system, I would like a LOT more choices. I can't be the only one! :lol:

Also, I didn't understand what specifically you download to access your repository. There are several files to choose from after "usr."

Regards...
You are not the only one! Last week i installed Wary and i was disappointed by the lack of applications...

Unfortunately i have no idea how to create a "make file", so i uploaded all the files as they have to be installed in the system (usr/share/ etc).

The easiest way is to get the pet file from http://sourceforge.net/projects/puppyst ... Setup/APR/

You can also get the code from https://github.com/koulaxizis/puppystuff/releases and run dir2pet

Or you can try the latest, by downloading https://github.com/koulaxizis/puppystuf ... master.zip

The main app is at https://github.com/koulaxizis/puppystuf ... /share/apr, all the rest are menu entries and images.

Hope that helped! :)
[b]Christos Koulaxizis[/b]
[i]Woof woof from Greece![/i]

[color=darkred][url=https://sourceforge.net/projects/puppystuff/][ Puppy Stuff Repository ][/url][/color]

Snail
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Another thread about future puppy

#18 Post by Snail »

koulaxizis has asked me to post here about a topic on the future development of Puppy's user interface. It's here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 666#719666

It is not really on the same topic as is being discussed here but may be of interested to those visiting here.

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ardvark
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#19 Post by ardvark »

Hi koulaxizis...

Hey, thanks for your help, I appreciate it! :)

Regards...

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Re: I could not disagree more

#20 Post by Q5sys »

6502coder wrote:For people who want a fat Linux distro OOTB there are plenty of choices out there. I do not understand why so many Puppy users are so obsessed with "defending" Puppy and "converting" other people to Puppy. I choose to use Puppy for the same reason I choose to drink the beer I drink -- because I like it, and I could not care less who does or does not agree with my choices.
Psychology 101.
When people like something they want others around them to like it as well.

The problem is that when they try to introduce Puppy to friends, family, colleagues, etc; it falls short on those peoples expectations.

The reaction by these people who want to promote puppy; is to try to force the community to make puppy into what 'others' expect a computer should be. This causes people to try to push features and software that most people don't use; or at the very least shouldn't be included in puppy to begin with. Case in point, the push for SAMBA to be included as a default software package.
SAMBA is not needed by most people, and shouldn't be included in a minimal distro. Yet there are Puppy users that have been on a campaign for years about including it by default becuase it fits 'their opinion' of what should be included.

Puppy is great because it focus on running on older/minimal hardware with the least amount of bloat. Bloat can be added in later by a user, but should NOT be included by default. Lets for example talk about the look and feel of puppy; Theming. Users who want to focus on Puppy looking beautiful could come together and help develop/package different theme options so a user could eaisly change the look of their puppy. But has anyone done that, not really. A user or two has done it, but no real simple options have emerged from the community.
SFS packages are a simple way for users to help expand a regular puppy into new territories. To use my system as an example. I'm using Lighthouse 601 right now. The Base system is right around 200mb. I have an additional 1.4gb of expansion SFS files for all the extra software I'd want.
If a team of people got together they could take a Official release (like Slacko), and create a ton of SFS packages so users could easily update and expand their system.

But has anyone in the community stepped forward to do this? Not yet sadly.
For puppy to grow and encompass more users, we need more people to get involved in the creation. Right now the development work is spread too thin. If I had more time, I'd be willing to pitch in, but I dont. I'm behind in the dev work I'm planning to do with Slackbones and Lighthouse.

I'm willing to help guide someone who is willing to put forth the effort to expand the offerings of Slacko.

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