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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Cutting edge
Precise's future now that Ubuntu is moving to MIR
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Mon 11 Mar 2013, 21:21    Post subject:  Precise's future now that Ubuntu is moving to MIR
Subject description: MIR is canonicals custom display server
 

This really isnt specific to just precise but for all of the ubuntu based releases. I know it will take some time for Canonical to release MIR into their products... but It's going to happen if Shuttleworth has anything to say about it. So I'm curious to others ideas of how that move might affect puppy's future development of the Ubuntu line of releases.

Will we work to modify puppy to use MIR, and assist Ubuntu in porting applications over to it... or will we stop basing future versions on it once MIR goes live?

I dont know the future, and I dont claim to know the answers. I'm curious as to others peoples thoughts before I start to form an opinion.

If you havent heard... here are some links to read.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1235
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/03/ubuntu-mir/
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/canonical-announce-custom-display-server-mir-not-wayland-not-x
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxNzg

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Mar 2013, 01:56    Post subject:  

Wayland is here (or not, depending on who you ask), and Puppy isn't using it. GTK3 is here too and Puppy isn't using it.

On another note, Lucid Puppy went well beyond Lucid Lynx's shell-life.
It was not that long ago that Lupu got replaced by Slacko as the "official" puppy, and even after that it continued to linger around under "three-headed-dog" name.

The way I see it, is that Barry will probably stick to the latest version of Ubuntu that still uses Xorg. MIR will probably be only considered once Xorg is no longer maintained and everyone else have moved to MIR (which isn't going to happen over night - even if MIR is mature and production-ready today).

Of course I'm not Barry and not speaking on his behalf - this is pure speculation Smile

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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 4981
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue 12 Mar 2013, 17:59    Post subject:  

Don`t like new and latest, let it mature and become stable first.

The one article showed what Canonical has got so far, and it`s not much...
I agree with the writers assessment, MIR earliest hope will be next year.
And then you can add another year to that for it to become truly functional.
So Precise won`t even be on the radar by then, not much to worry about.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Thu 14 Mar 2013, 13:16    Post subject: Puppy's future now that Ubuntu is moving to MIR  

Hi All,

Predicting the future of Puppy now that MIR and Wayland are on the horizon:

There was Puppy before there was woof. There are Puppies even though there is woof, that is Puppies which are not built using the binaries of other distros to wit: Carolina and, if I recall correctly, FatDog prior to the latest versions based on Slackware.
Unless MIR or Wayland were constructed by people having no knowledge of how Xorg works, the probability is that upon their dissembling it will be discovered that all three are “variations on a theme.” People do not re-invent the wheel: they only apply newer insights to improve it. The wheel is still round, only the material used has changed. MIR and wayland probability will turn out to use much of the structure employed by Xorg, substituting new sub-routines for those of Xorg considered no longer to be “state of the art.”
So there are four possibilities: Woof will be adapted to use MIR or Wayland or either. That will depend on which direction debian, Archlinux, and Slackware take. When Barry K first developed woof many thought debian was the best candidate for its use. But Barry K preferred Ubuntu. Experience has shown, however, Slackware to be an excellent choice. Over the last several months, simargl has demonstrated that the woofing of Archlinux is not just theoretical, and with his newly found interest in more closely configuring Archpup toward Puppy standard he, or others who favor Archlinux, may well be on the verge of a solid Puppy-Arch combination opening up the wealth of Archlinux's repositories to “mere” Puppy users. The advantage of woofing Ubuntu was the latter's abundance of applications. Most of which we don't employ because to do so would require inclusion of the bloat inherent in Ubuntu which runs counter to Puppy's philosophy and because other, less bloated applications, can accomplish the same real-world tasks. Consequently, depending on which side of the wayland-mir divide debian, slackware and Archlinux take, what Ubuntu does may prove to be superfluous. Whether adapting woof to wayland or mir may also turn on which would require Puppy to accept more bloat.
The fourth possibility is that woof may be abandoned. Barry K's conceived woof as a vehicle to ease development and reduce the necessity of storage and bandwidth. Those objectives have proven illusory. Rather than devoting time to perfecting one or two (32 & 64-bit) Puppies, and developing applications and customizations for them, the efforts of Puppy's devs are scattered among several mostly incompatible variants, retro-fitting other distro's apps for use in Puppies and constantly improving woof so that the foregoing can take place. Since applications from other distros can rarely be used “out of the box” --or because devs just like to publish their creations-- pets built for each Puppy variant are stored online requiring additional storage. I can't say whether the total bandwidth used by all Pups is greater or less than were there only two pups. I suspect not.
Far more important to Puppy's future is its adaption to GTK-3. Its employment, as far as I know, is what each of the major distros are already using, or to which they are heading. Already much of the current specialized applications developed for Ubuntu are, despite woof, of no value to Puppy. If and when the maintainers of the applications which provide Puppy's base applications use only GTK-3, Puppy will become obsolete if it has not adapted.
What will be the fate of Puppy? That will depend on Barry K. and others. Barry K is the master. I hope his interests will continue to pave the way for creating a compact, resource-efficient, user-friendly, open source distribution capable of being deployed to what otherwise would become obsolete computers. That was his original vision. That is Puppy's role in the Global Village. That is the magnet which draws the bulk of Puppy's users. But in an endeavor which is not driven by the profit motive, direction will be set by the interests and vision of each individual. Puppy –indeed, Linux in general-- is a do-ocracy. Those who can do, can also wait for others to do. Sometimes a leader leads because he has the vision. Sometimes the leader is just someone being kept in front by the push of those, although not in the lead, who have an objective. Sometimes disciples, standing on the shoulders of a giant, have a clearer view of terrain. And sometimes disciples, like lemmings, follow a leader over a cliff.
Puppy, and Linux in general, is open-source. Barry K has demonstrated what can be done. There will be Puppy. And if not, there will be “Froggy” or “Piggy” or something, or nothing.

mikesLr
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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
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Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Fri 22 Mar 2013, 18:46    Post subject:  

Both Wayland and GTK3 are being 'played' with by a number of interested 'puppy people'.

There is a Wayland thread around with some interesting info, and thunor is starting with gtk3 with a beta of my mage2 which has gtk3 inbuilt to create the dialog we need to make gtk3 'puppy compatable'.

I am sure others will join in as they both evolve and become more useful or needed.

But major additions like these take time and none of us are intending to break the working system.

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RJARRRPCGP

Joined: 09 Dec 2008
Posts: 98
Location: USA (Springfield, Vermont)

PostPosted: Sun 19 May 2013, 21:24    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:


The way I see it, is that Barry will probably stick to the latest version of Ubuntu that still uses Xorg. MIR will probably be only considered once Xorg is no longer maintained and everyone else have moved to MIR (which isn't going to happen over night - even if MIR is mature and production-ready today).


That's if X.Org goes the way of XFree86.
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simargl

Joined: 11 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon 20 May 2013, 02:26    Post subject:  

.
Last edited by simargl on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 11:10; edited 1 time in total
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tlcstat

Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 82
Location: SW Virginia mountains

PostPosted: Tue 04 Jun 2013, 21:27    Post subject: Precise's future  

Greetings,
I'm not aware of a Puppy using the Unity desktop and Mir with GTK3 is being used by Ubuntu to drive Unity Next. It is already functioning on some Android devices. I think that Canonical is concentrating on handhelds and small screens because there is already a really good desktop Ubuntu IMO. I don't see any of this being utilized in a Puppy distro.
It makes sense to me short term (3 years) to continue Puppy with Ubuntu as it is now, Debian, Arch, Slack etc. I have just returned to Puppy with a more serious intent and think highly with what I am finding. It seems to me that a lot of innovation is taking place. Puppy doesn't need to be Ubuntu just like Ubuntu doesn't need to be Windows.
For my self in the here and now Carolina Puppy is doing a fine job. I have managed to get all of my needed apps running and seem to be using my Ubuntu install less as time goes on. The crazy thing is that I have Ubuntu running on a 500gig Hd and puppy running on a flashdrive with both installations doing mostly the same thing.
I do think that Puppy is for "real" linux users. The reason I abandoned the project years back is because I hadn't weaned myself from Windows and couldn't get enough functionality from Puppy. Ubuntu seemed to be better but yet a great struggle. Today I am 100% Linux. I have kept a copy of Puppy running on my system for the entire five years since I joined this forum but couldn't use is for my main distro.
Today I am fascinated with Carolina Puppy and even have my Bluetooth working which has been a struggle on most Puppies that I have tried. I use it every day.
In my opinion the Puppy Community is doing a fine job in it's self determined mission and should invest it's effort in becoming even better at what it does and not try to be something else.
Long story short! Even Upup isn't a very good Ubuntu but it is a really good Puppy.. You guys need to tighten up on the Bluetooth thing though. It's part of a computer, isn't it?
Regards
tlcstat
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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1847
Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Wed 05 Jun 2013, 08:45    Post subject:  

You are right simargl!

simargl wrote:
Question is if Ubuntu moves to MIR and all other distributions switch to Wayland, why should Puppy follow Ubuntu and not turn to for example Debian as main option?

I think Debian is great choise, although Arch is my personal favourite.


and if I did understand Barry in his old publications well, he also was a fan of Debian over all other distributions (excepted perhaps Slackware, but I did understand it so, that source and package management of Slackware gives more freedom to developers to do what they will without to need to change deeply the pre founded system)...

why did the 5.n branch of Puppy start so intensive using Ubuntu stuff?

I would see a reason: Debian is extremely conservative. You have to wait for a long time if you wish to use newer software concepts. Today Ubuntu react about as fast as Arch offering prepared binaries that you can test immediately else for new stuffs!

but I thing that this article http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/01/ubuntu_smartphone/ explains really realistic what is the matter:

Ubuntu is the product of a business man! He has to prepare or let open a business future. segregated systems are not really a progressive vision of future and the Linux world did do enough to destroy the separation between MS-Windows and Linux in the past (Wine, Cygwin, partially common development betwenn Wine and reactOS, KDE as copy of the MS-Windows environment, etc.)

And now we have to realize that tomorrow the most attractive business will not be desktop PC any more but small electronic slaves being each time in our next environment (a lot of people need electronic help to become happy in the sleeping room to film their activity, look at the activity of other people at the same time etc...).

What a surprise that business people try to bring all under one unique hat and try to develop an only one system for all purposes where it is possible to make money.

The most worrying thing in this trend is that Google and Android did accustom us with shops and that shops did now appear as completely normal in distros like Ubuntu!

If Google, Ubuntu, Novel as Java distributor, Adobe, all did decide in the last time to do the same as Microsoft, IBM and Apple did do in the past, commercialize the software and the web, it will not be long to wait and the freedom is away as other can't continue to develop any more because the used platform are all different!

Perhaps it would really be good if a lot of user did abandon totally the newer commercial trend and ignore them, and continue to develop useful but lowcost solution in classic small Linux!

Regards
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2051
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Thu 06 Jun 2013, 03:02    Post subject:  

I think a larger issue than Linux is at foot, Savy Business people found a way past, beyond, with sly cunning, used open source as a free software development environment instead of large in house staffs. Using controlled access methods purposely changing long existing methods to make the controlled access methods part of the revenue generating stream.
Every for profit now has an app-store. How googlies' android can claim its open source and charge for its repackaging of open source, So far I've spent $2.00 for two running version of Aces' of Pigeon solitaire game, one on linux based kindle <app store> and one from linux based Android <app store> I am not given the option without signing up as a developer for those appstore to compile or install for myself.
Apple, Amazon, Google, Ubuntu are all early lock in/up artist corrupting open source. It is actually, funny that OLD Microsoft was caught flat footed by the successful subterfuge of OpenSoftware Movement, since they are the experts in weaking by degrees and long duration lock-in of its products and software.
The direct confrontation and challenge of Open Source by Microsoft never got them any where.
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1046

PostPosted: Thu 06 Jun 2013, 14:12    Post subject: Re: Precise's future  

tlcstat wrote:
Greetings,
I'm not aware of a Puppy using the Unity desktop and Mir with GTK3 is being used by Ubuntu to drive Unity Next. It is already functioning on some Android devices. I think that Canonical is concentrating on handhelds and small screens because there is already a really good desktop Ubuntu IMO. I don't see any of this being utilized in a Puppy distro.


Unity still uses the X display server, so its just another desktop for he X display server. If/When canonical pushes MIR out as final, all apps from that point forward will not be compatible with X. They will be written and compiled for MIR. That means outside of a compatibility layer that the x.org people would have to write... future ubuntu apps won't work on an x display server..
The wayland team would also have to write a compatibility layer so that apps designed or MIR could run. This of course brings with it computational overhead.

Its the application compatibility problem that the linux community will run into, because we will have (at least initially) two non compatible dispay servers.

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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jun 2013, 22:29    Post subject: Re: Precise's future  

Q5sys wrote:
Unity still uses the X display server, so its just another desktop for he X display server. If/When canonical pushes MIR out as final, all apps from that point forward will not be compatible with X. They will be written and compiled for MIR. That means outside of a compatibility layer that the x.org people would have to write... future ubuntu apps won't work on an x display server..
The wayland team would also have to write a compatibility layer so that apps designed or MIR could run. This of course brings with it computational overhead.

Its the application compatibility problem that the linux community will run into, because we will have (at least initially) two non compatible dispay servers.


We will have to wait, with wayland, they have an xwayland that allows x desktops to run with wayland as well as wayland desktops, I don't think that canonical would be silly enough not to do something similar in this open-source world we now live in.

And another thing is that with the latest kernels, you can have multiple servers and desktops running on the same box if the kernel has been configured that way, you just need the cores and memory.

i.e. A possability from 3.10.xx and on, if all proposed is included, will be to have something like:-
F1 - a x-org server;
F2 - a Xwayland server;
F3 - a Pure Wayland server
F4 - another server (say a MIR-X);
F5 - another server (say a Pure MIR);
F6 - ?
F7 - ?
F8 - ?
F9 - your default x-org desktop (say JWM);
F10 - your default wayland desktop (say weston);
F11 - another desktop (say unity);
F12 - another desktop (say QuTe);

and as long as you have the workstation resources, they would all work happily together. I do expect something like this to become the 'standard' withing the next three to five years! And remember, each server and each desktop has plusses and minuses, otherwise they would never have been created.


Anyway that's my vision of it.

regards
scsijon
EDIT: Darn typos! If there are any more, sorry you will have to put up with them Laughing .
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