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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Hardware
DVD burner causes freezing boot in SATA/PATA mixed system
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2012, 01:19    Post subject:  DVD burner causes freezing boot in SATA/PATA mixed system
Subject description: Dell Dimension 4700 w SATA hdd, PATA dvd burner
 

Does anyone have experience with this troublesome Dell Dimension 4700? It seems a common problem that freezing of some sort eventually takes this model computer out of service. In my case, there is a SATA hdd and a PATA dvd burner. In the fora, there is mention of a compatibility mode selectable in BIOS. Turns out the only pertinent setting is in "SATA Performance" where the two possibilities are Normal and Combination, where Combination is for OS's that are too old for SATA support. Windows XP Home SP3 is the OS in question. The system freezes when the Windows screen is showing the blue progress bar during boot. Windows sees the dvd burner and freezes. Removing or disabling the dvd burner, I can boot into Safe Mode, and boot all the way to Desktop with no freezing, all of which indicates a driver or software problem. The dvd burner works in other systems, and I tried another dvd burner with same failure. I also changed the IDE ribbon to 80 conductor version, with no joy. Also deleted the optical drive in Device Manager, with no joy when Windows reinstalled it (with accompanying freeze/crash, of course). I ran Wary 5.1.2 as a live CD, and accessed the dvd drive without a hitch.
Possible solutions:
1. Windows must be reinstalled with the Combination setting in effect. There is risk of wasted time, because it was reported in forum that reinstalling did not resolve the issue. In fact, nothing was reported to resolve the freezing, and when the computer was returned, Dell tech support said it was failed hardware (mobo, hdd). Dubious.
2. Last ditch: Give up on Windows, install Wary 5.1.2 instead. This would be a full install, and I don't know whether the issue would occur in Wary.
Anyone have experience with the Dimension 4700, WinXP SP3, 3.0 GHz P4 w HT, 2 GB ddr ram, 80 GB sata hdd, pata dvd burner?
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3402
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2012, 07:32    Post subject:  

http://www.dell.com/support/troubleshooting/ca/en/cabsdt1/Index

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim4700/en/index.htm


http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim4700
/sm/index.htm

"""

You have an IDE connector so no problem.
I would change the rear pin of the DVD to >>> Master

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim4700/sm/techov.htm#wp1052362

"""""""

" Make sure the Hard drive is set for compatable mode.

XP cannot use AHCI drivers at boot.

There is a Legacy or compatable mode for SATA operation.


Entering System Setup

Turn on (or restart) your computer.

When the blue DELL™ logo appears, press <F2> immediately.

If you wait too long and the operating system logo appears, continue to wait until you see the Microsoft® Windows® desktop.

SATA Operation

Configures the operation mode of the integrated hard-drive controller.

Normal — The hard-drive controller is configured for native mode. This mode provides the highest drive performance and most flexibility.

Combination — The hard-drive controller is configured for combination mode. This mode enables compatibility with some older operating systems that do not support SATA drives.

The factory default setting is Normal.

NOTE: Changing this setting affects the order in which drives are listed. However, system setup does not reflect these changes until after a reboot."

http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/p/19362076/19810805.aspx

Chris.
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2012, 08:23    Post subject:  

Another solution is to replace the IDE/pata dvd burner with a sata dvd burner. Then the system wouldn't be a mix of SATA and PATA, rather all SATA. I believe the mix of drives confuses Windows.
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3402
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2012, 20:48    Post subject:  

i have a customer who wanted a new machine years ago.

The sata dvd in it clashed with the other hardware.
My local PC shop tried 2 different brands.
Still they clashed.

We ended up popping in an IDE dvd drive....
and never a problem.

I forgot about it until a few months ago when her dvd died.

This time....years on....no hardware clashes...
it runs fine.

:::::::

Chris.
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul 2012, 11:21    Post subject:  

Must be that the secondary SATA slot is only for another hard drive, as there doesn't seem to be a power terminal available for a SATA optical drive. Maybe I'll try a CDROM instead of a burner, see if I can put a new OS on this machine.
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3964
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul 2012, 16:59    Post subject:  

nubc : do you have a driver cd for the hardware ?

I would try to copy the drivers from the cd using a linux live cd to the folder where the drivers usually are located in windows , which i cannot remember for now and try to boot .
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul 2012, 01:15    Post subject:  

I did a clean install of Windows, upgraded to WinXP Pro SP3, but the Windows boot screen froze as usual. So I set up a dual boot with Wary 5.2.2 full install. (Just have to disable the DVD drive before I boot to WinXP.) Grub lists Windows first, and I need to change the OS boot order. Don't recall how, except to rearrange things in menu.lst. [Done] I set the boot flag on the ext2 partition, sda2. The burner works fine in Linux, although there are reports of bad audio from this drive.

Okay, Karl, I'll look for the driver. Obviously, Windows can't see the drive (disabled in BIOS for WinXP), and I don't believe that Wary's Hard Info reports optical drives. So I am stuck with a manual identification. It's a generic ATAPI drive with model number DH-16W1P, which is further identified as DH-16W1P161C. This may be a BenQ product. [Philips & BenQ Digital Storage]

The following thread gives several tips, including a link to Microsoft KB regarding corrupted/conflicting drivers for atapi drive:
http://club.myce.com/f61/how-do-i-reinstall-drivers-my-atapi-dvd-w-dh16w1p-ata-burner-228330/

Last edited by nubc on Sat 14 Jul 2012, 23:03; edited 1 time in total
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul 2012, 22:08    Post subject:  

Short of swapping the dvd burner for a sata dvd burner, which would require a SATA converter on one of the power supply terminals, I have these options:
1. upgrade the firmware on the PATA burner
2. hack the registry to delete the UpperFilters and LowerFilters values, here:
Code:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E965-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}

However, deleting UpperFilters and LowerFilters values is a response to encountering certain error messages, but there are no error messages in this situation.
I just substituted a combo drive for the DVD burner, and the computer still froze, so I am more inclined to believe that the problem is the mix of PATA and SATA, rather than some particular PATA drive needing firmware. Microsoft offers a "Fix it" service to automatically correct the problem, but of course I can't use this because the optical drive must be disabled in order to boot into Windows.
EDIT: There are no UpperFilters and LowerFilters values in the above registry key, probably for the simple reason that the drive isn't present (disabled).

Can someone locate the firmware for BenQ DH-16W1P?
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2012, 08:23    Post subject:  

Booted into Safe Mode, with the PATA optical drive enabled, and found two entries under the category of "IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers" in Device Manager. The two items are
1 Intel 82801FB Ultra ATA Storage Controllers - 2651
2 Primary IDE Channel

I tried deleting these and letting Windows reinstall the drivers, but there was no improvement. Perhaps there are better drivers available that will solve the boot freezing.

I was advised that Windows considers all drives designated with a "0" to be hard drives, so therefore I should get the PATA DVD burner, currently configured on 'PATA 0,' to show on some other channel. So I set the burner to Slave, and enabled 'PATA 1.' This had the desired result, but the computer still froze during boot, same problem. Very disappointing.

Last edited by nubc on Mon 16 Jul 2012, 07:45; edited 2 times in total
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2012, 22:18    Post subject:  

Something is fundamentally deficient in this computer, so I am looking at upgrading the BIOS. Here is a summary of BIOS versions since A05 (11/23/04), the BIOS version on my Dimension 4700. Most recent BIOS version is A10. Suggestions welcome.
http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/p/17900100/18023086.aspx#18023086

I upgraded the BIOS from version A05 to A10, but the computer still freezes. When I chose version A10 I assumed that versions A06 to A09 were included in A10. Is this correct? In particular, I believe that version A06 was most likely to contain the improvement I need (eg, updated ATA/ATAPI drive detection code). Would there be any benefit to flashing to version A06 at this point? The successive versions of BIOS are cumulative, are they not?

I'm not having a good time with the Wary 5.2.2 full install on sda2 either. Although a music CD will play in ttuuxxx's VLC package, a movie DVD will not play and causes unretrievable system freeze in VLC, Ogle, and Mplayer. All these front button shutdowns are borking my system! Moreover, after a file check and reboot, the pinboard gets overwritten and I get a blank desktop.
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 18 Jul 2012, 14:06    Post subject:  

There is no physical evidence (eg, bulging caps) that the chipset on this computer is defective. However, other evidence indicates that the chipset may be defective, in particular, the channel controllers. A possible solution is to install a 2-port PCI IDE Controller Adapter card (ATA133) and connect the optical drive to it. When I installed Dell Desktop System Software, something addtional showed up in Device Manager under "IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers", a phantom Secondary IDE Channel. I describe this new device as "phantom" because there is no physical Secondary IDE terminal on the motherboard, only a single Primary IDE terminal. Hopefully, an optical drive connected to a PCI IDE Controller Adapter card would be seen on the Secondary IDE (Master) in Device Manager. Assuming that motherboard channel controllers are defective, would an optical drive thus connected to a PCI IDE controller card work around this problem? Would its operation be independent of the normal channel of control?
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2012, 21:27    Post subject:  

I installed a Silicon Image 680 PCI IDE Controller card, and the DVD burner is now working good. The card came with a CD full of drivers, but of course these drivers were unavailable because the optical drive was disabled in BIOS. No problem: Windows went out on the internet and picked up the drivers. Curiously, after installing the card, a new device showed up under "IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers" in Device Manage, which was Intel 82801FB/FBM Ultra ATA Storage Controllers - 266F. I tried connecting the burner to the Primary IDE terminal on the motherboard another time to see if this new device made a difference, but Windows still froze like before. So now the burner is connected to the PCI IDE controller card, and I consider this to be a completely satisfactory solution to the problem, at a cost under 15 USD including shipping.

I was obliged to reinstall Windows during this repair, and doing so erased Grub. So I will have to reinstall Grub in order to boot Puppy. There are two sets of SII 0680 drivers on the CD, one of them is for RAID. In the RAID drivers folder there is a note about Linux, that it's impossible to boot from RAID 0 or RAID 5 in Linux, and suggests a workaround from Red Hat. I can't boot Puppy from CD in the new configuration. The card/drive is not really represented in BIOS. I tried pressing F12 to change the boot order without going into BIOS, but only the SATA hdd and FDD were listed. Then, after fooling around a bit, "ATAPI" showed up in the F12 boot list, but when I selected it to boot, Puppy was not found. When I fool around with settings like this, a mysterious Network boot failure recurs, which necessitates starting all over to get anywhere. I went into the setup for the card, where there is an option to delete the RAID. I'm confused. In Device Manage, the card is listed under "SCSI and RAID controllers" as "Silicon Image SiI 0680 ATA-133 Medley Raid controller." The truth is, I don't really want a RAID, I just want a supplementary IDE channel. I have zero experience with RAID setups. Can someone advise how to proceed. Should I delete the RAID?
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue 24 Jul 2012, 16:45    Post subject:  

After some reading I have come to the conclusion that this computer is not going to play well with Linux as long as the PCI controller card is RAID, not IDE. So I will need to learn how to change it from RAID to IDE, non-destructively w.r.t data. I don't find much coherent information about making that transition, especially since the reverse direction (IDE to RAID) is more desirable. I gather that the card is set up to do RAID by default because it's easier to configure, a single-device RAID works, and RAID is the more likely ultimate usage. I would be willing to flash this card with an IDE BIOS if that action achieved my aims, but it seems things are more complicated than that.
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3964
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2012, 17:02    Post subject:  

Hi, nubc ! Have also to learn about RAID .

Got myself

http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/974679/ATA-133-SATA-PCI-KARTE

and it worked well adding a newer SATA HDD to an IDE board .

The added SATA HDD was selected before IDE0 by the Bios and booted nicely with Grub legacy .

Btw are you running the Puppy-2.6.31.14-IDE kernel ?

For what i can tell Dell seems to a robust brand, but now one board started to trouble me with loose fan power connection and gone acpi sleep capatibility .
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nubc


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug 2012, 12:46    Post subject:  

It's a little late to discover, but I noticed two jumpers on the Silicon Image board, and found documentation that Jumper 1 selects RAID and IDE modes. It's a soldered hardwire jumper, so I removed it to select IDE mode.

1. I could not update the SCSI RAID driver with the provided SI IDE driver
2. The SCSI device name remains the same in Device Manager, Silicon Image SiI 0680 ATA-133 Medley Raid Controller
3. Computer will not boot a Puppy CD
4. BIOS shows an ATAPI device in the boot order, but sometimes when I get a Boot Menu from pressing F12 the device is listed as Unknown, or not present at all
5. With ATAPI first in BIOS Boot Order and nothing in the burner tray, boot will not proceed past recognition of "Drive 0: ATAPI" in dos-like print

I would consider flashing the BIOS of the card, but I don't recall ever flashing the BIOS since it was first installed. If the card is hardwired for RAID mode maybe it has originally been flashed as a RAID card (?)

Firmware from Silicon Image website
http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=31&cat=15&os=0
Forum discussion
http://club.myce.com/f61/new-silicon-image-sil-0680-firmware-drivers-192683/
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