Microsoft, Puppy and the UDF Format

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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tazoc
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Is there a way to detect a UDF disc?

#31 Post by tazoc »

Master_wrong wrote:@Karl
Code:
mkdir /mnt/DVD
mount-FULL -s -o nostrict /dev/sr0 /mnt/DVD
i tested this to read udf disc burned by nero linux and it work.

shouldnt this be implemented in puppy ?

Thanks
Thank you Karl, that works in Lighthouse64 for a Windows 7 install disc I have. (udf kernel module was already loaded.)

Unfortunately blkid and probepart just tells me its media type is 'iso-9660', so I don't know how to automate that in pmount. Is there a way to detect a UDF disc device from the command line, prior to mounting the disc?

-TaZoC
[url=http://www.lhpup.org/][b][size=100]lhpup.org[/size][/b] [img]http://www.lhpup.org/gallery/images/favicon.png[/img][/url] [url=http://www.lhpup.org/release-lhp.htm#602]Lighthouse 64 6.02[/url]

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pemasu
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#32 Post by pemasu »

Not sure if this is of any help, but disktype tells me something:
# disktype /dev/sr0

--- /dev/sr0
Block device, size 6.628 GiB (7116390400 bytes)
CD-ROM, 1 track, CDDB disk ID 023BFD01
Track 1: Data track, 2.197 GiB (2358986752 bytes)
UDF file system
Sector size 2048 bytes
Volume name "ICE_AGE"
UDF version 1.02
ISO9660 file system
Volume name "ICE_AGE"
Publisher "FOX"
Preparer "CVC"
Data size 6.628 GiB (7116390400 bytes, 3474800 blocks of 2 KiB)

musher0
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#33 Post by musher0 »

@Makoto : Thanks for your answer.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
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Karl Godt
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Re: Is there a way to detect a UDF disc?

#34 Post by Karl Godt »

tazoc wrote:
Master_wrong wrote:@Karl
Code:
mkdir /mnt/DVD
mount-FULL -s -o nostrict /dev/sr0 /mnt/DVD
i tested this to read udf disc burned by nero linux and it work.

shouldnt this be implemented in puppy ?

Thanks
Thank you Karl, that works in Lighthouse64 for a Windows 7 install disc I have. (udf kernel module was already loaded.)

Unfortunately blkid and probepart just tells me its media type is 'iso-9660', so I don't know how to automate that in pmount. Is there a way to detect a UDF disc device from the command line, prior to mounting the disc?

-TaZoC
Oh god . disktype is heavy . But for comparison Windows Vista also fires the DVD drive up at DirectX/xwin $Windowmanger/boot .. and seems to automount. Have no idea about the commandline for windows though(used a "black 98" once and can remember windows fdisk command).

But my blkid s on Macpup_F3(430/2ttuuxxxdevx) can find it :

1:
bash-3.00#

Code: Select all

file `which blkid`
/bin/blkid: symbolic link to `busybox'
BusyBox v1.19.4 (2012-04-19 16:14:01 GMT+1) multi-call binary.
Copyright (C) 1998-2011 Erik Andersen, Rob Landley, Denys Vlasenko
and others. Licensed under GPLv2.
See source distribution for full notice.
:
/dev/sr0: LABEL="SUSE9-2-V0-WINBM" TYPE="udf"
2:

Code: Select all

/sbin/blkid -c /dev/null /dev/sr0
:
/dev/sr0: LABEL="SUSE9_2_V0_WINBM" TYPE="udf"

Code: Select all

 /sbin/blkid -v
:
blkid 1.0.0 (12-Feb-2003)
3:

Code: Select all

/usr/local/sbin/blkid -c /dev/null /dev/sr0
:
/dev/sr0: LABEL="SUSE9-2-V0-WINBM" TYPE="udf"

Code: Select all

/usr/local/sbin/blkid -v
:
blkid from util-linux-ng 2.16.2 (libblkid 2.16.0, 10-Feb-2009)
*

Tazoc, my guess is that there a newer defaults in util-linux/busybox. Busybox also has a hund reds of configuration options. The */local/* is configured i think simply "./configure" . UTF-8 seems to confuse things around too. I am starting to compile things "--with-system-gettext" or whatever that configuration option precisely is named since that helps with gtk-2.0 special non-english-chars. Maybe is important to all that poping ntfs malaisse around. Or Win7/8's newer udf -version is not recognized (by the kernel driver).

Further
/sbin/probepart is a script by BK that i have altered in different ways on my full installations to guess udf. Here the Macpup_Foxy3 version :
Attachments
probepart.bz2
should go to /sbin
crappy but that shows that i did not made it in 5 minutes.
(2.97 KiB) Downloaded 623 times

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tazoc
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blkid -p

#35 Post by tazoc »

Thank you Pemasu and Karl. :D

I think I'm using a blkid from Slackware64 and I found that 'blkid -p' works here.

Code: Select all

bash-4.1# blkid -v
blkid from util-linux 2.19 (libblkid 2.19.0, 10-Feb-2011)
bash-4.1# blkid /dev/sr1
/dev/sr1: LABEL="GRMCULXFRER_EN_DVD" TYPE="iso9660" 
bash-4.1# blkid -p /dev/sr1
/dev/sr1: LABEL="UDF Volume" TYPE="udf" USAGE="filesystem"
bash-4.1# blkid --help 2>&1|grep 'superblocks'
  -p          low-level superblocks probing (bypass cache)
-TaZoC
[url=http://www.lhpup.org/][b][size=100]lhpup.org[/size][/b] [img]http://www.lhpup.org/gallery/images/favicon.png[/img][/url] [url=http://www.lhpup.org/release-lhp.htm#602]Lighthouse 64 6.02[/url]

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Karl Godt
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#36 Post by Karl Godt »

Mine manpage of blkid does not have the -p option ,
E2fsprogs version 1.41.3 October 2008 BLKID(8)
but i can confirm that the -p option works for blkid from util-linux-ng 2.16.2 .

For removable devices a fixed /etc/blkid.tab is nonsense imo .

gcmartin

UDF is only understood if you read this thread

#37 Post by gcmartin »

One of us wrote:Thanks to Master_wrong, this works in L64 for a Windows 7 install disc I have.

Code: Select all

mount-FULL -s -o nostrict /dev/sr0 /mnt/dvd
Paste this into a terminal: (If your disc is in the second drive use /dev/sr1 instead of /dev/sr0.)

Unfortunately blkid and probepart just tells me its media type is 'iso-9660', so I don't know how to automate that in pmount or Drives Manager.
I used this approach and got favorable results on my LiH64 system

Code: Select all

bash-4.1# mkdir /media/dvd
<root> ~
bash-4.1# mount-FULL -s -o nostrict /dev/sr0 /media/dvd
mount: block device /dev/sr0 is write-protected, mounting read-only
<root> ~
bash-4.1#
And I now have it mounted so that ROX/PBurn and other subsystems can make use of the DVD's data.

Now for the obvious question
I am sure we are asking ourselves, shouldn't Puppy be using that mount command instead of the one we are using. Is this just one more of those steps Puppy takes as it matures? Can the Puppy system alias this or something so that it not left to the user to just give up?

Understanding this, i thought it to be helpful to try the mount-FULL command on a Puppy ISO disk as well.

Code: Select all

bash-4.1# mount-FULL
rootfs on / type rootfs (rw,relatime)
none on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime)
tmpfs on /initrd/pup_rw type tmpfs (rw,relatime,size=3482168k)
tmpfs on /initrd/pup_ro1 type tmpfs (rw,relatime,size=1364328k)
tmpfs on /initrd/mnt/tmpfs type tmpfs (rw,relatime,size=364932k)
/dev/loop0 on /initrd/pup_ro2 type squashfs (ro,noatime)
	o
	o
	o
	o
bash-4.1# mount-FULL   -o username=root //192.168.1.42/HDD_a /mnt/NAS2
<root> ~
Thus, I am able to view my mounts (all USBs/HDDs/all DVD UDF media) and, as well, mount a remote LAN resource.

Question 2
How does a community find, like this, get rolled into the base distro build system such that its replaces the old mount command with the modern version which doesn't carry the limitations?

A community request
Could others also test the use of the mount-Full command to insure that compatibilities are not overlooked and shortcomings are missed?

Thanks in advance for any and all help. None of what has been found or shared here is major. But all of it does help in the maturity of Puppy. Its only a show-stopper when someone who isn't expecting a problem hits this.

Anyone know how to make BarryK aware of this need for switching the mount command (certainly would be nice to make him aware of our findings)?

Here to help
Edit: spelling and context corrections
Last edited by gcmartin on Fri 17 Aug 2012, 23:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Smithy
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#38 Post by Smithy »

Gave the code a try with a UDF disc (single layer) and a second one.
No Joy. But glad something's working for someone!
These discs can be read and written to in windows, but not on Puppy.

Code: Select all

sh-4.1# mount-FULL -s -o nostrict /dev/sr0 /mnt/dvd
mount: block device /dev/sr0 is write-protected, mounting read-only
mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr0,
       missing codepage or other error
       In some cases useful info is found in syslog - try
       dmesg | tail  or so

gcmartin

#39 Post by gcmartin »

Smithy wrote:Gave the code a try with a UDF disc (single layer) and a second one.
No Joy. But glad something's working for someone!
These discs can be read and written to in windows, but not on Puppy.

Code: Select all

sh-4.1# mount-FULL -s -o nostrict /dev/sr0 /mnt/dvd
mount: block device /dev/sr0 is write-protected, mounting read-only
mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr0,
       missing codepage or other error
       In some cases useful info is found in syslog - try
       dmesg | tail  or so
Hi @Smithy,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can open /mnt/dvd in ROX and see all the files. I got the same message you got and I was able see the UDF files in ROX.

I'm not sure about the read-only portion and have appealed to others for understanding and expansion to what we can do should the media have been created multi-session.

But, I think you can "read" your files on the UDF media now.

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#40 Post by Smithy »

Hi gcmartin, I just tried, I navigated through mount/sr0 (the dvd drive) and it is empty. Tried also dvd folder, that is empty.
I am using 3HD derivative, don't know if the kernel might make a difference.

EDIT..omg..slap me round the head with a catfish, just stuck a dual layer in there, clicked on dvd in rox, and like you said, all the files are there!

And it mounted like lightning, usually have to sit there for a good minute while windows chuntles away loading a dual layer up.

Just tried a few others that are in an "open" state, i.e nearly full but have a coupla gigs left for writing to, and they show up as blank, so possibly closed discs are able to be read in puppy.

Anyways, very good news!

postfs1

#41 Post by postfs1 »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format
Mount_sr0_UDF

Code: Select all

mkdir -p /mnt/sr0 ; mount /dev/sr0 /mnt/sr0 -t udf -o ro,relatime,iocharset=utf8

ls -1 /mnt/sr0

umount /mnt/sr0 ; rmdir --ignore-fail-on-non-empty /mnt/sr0


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Flash
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#42 Post by Flash »

According to this Wikipedia table, Linux can't write to later versions of UDF than 2.01. NetBSD 5, whatever that is, can write to all versions of UDF.

gcmartin

#43 Post by gcmartin »

Yeah @Flash I did see that.

What would be nice is to determine which type of UDF (and from which OSes-applications) our PUPs are capable of reading?

With that understanding, it would make it a little simpler to approach the Linux community for further understanding in how to get PUPs to write. As it stand, currently, this is one of the first in-depth looks at mounting UDFs in PUPs.

Lastly, it should make us wonder if there will be increased use of Blu-Ray UDF file production or increased use of any DVD media as the technology begins to move to hand-helds.

I really do understand the limited resources and the need to prioritize to maximize community benefit.

Personally, this has help me better understand how to help family and friends in this area as they need. This was very timely and I THANK this community for providing insights. THX!!!

Lets hope that the current findings makes its way into current and future PUPs without user needs to request PPM/market research for this media mount. This could make additional development and resolutions a little easier.

Here to help

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#44 Post by rjbrewer »

gcmartin wrote:Yeah @Flash I did see that.

What would be nice is to determine which type of UDF (and from which OSes-applications) our PUPs are capable of reading?
The other UDF thread:

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 62&t=74519

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Full installs

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#45 Post by Smithy »

So would it be easy enough to put the UDF code in Zigberts PBurn, either automatically mounting when a UDF disk is inserted or possibly a Load UDF Button? Would be a neat little feature.

Maybe a little premature until a few more UDFs are reported in..

As regards writing to UDF, I'm not sure if any Puppyists want to go through the potential of cd/dvd disks occassionally losing their data, but I would bet UDF writing would be pretty solid in Linux, 'cos it seems really good at those sort of things.

And it usually only happens(ed) when you forget to dismount the thing and it used to freak out. Think write behind caching could catch one out sometimes.

gcmartin

UDF can happen, but ...

#46 Post by gcmartin »

Smithy wrote:So would it be easy enough to put the UDF code in Zigberts PBurn, either automatically mounting when a UDF disk is inserted or possibly a Load UDF Button? Would be a neat little feature.

Maybe a little premature until a few more UDFs are reported in..

As regards writing to UDF, I'm not sure if any Puppyists want to go through the potential of cd/dvd disks occassionally losing their data, but I would bet UDF writing would be pretty solid in Linux, 'cos it seems really good at those sort of things.

And it usually only happens(ed) when you forget to dismount the thing and it used to freak out. Think write behind caching could catch one out sometimes.
ALL PUPs use "delayed write" for all I/Os (as far as I know) But, at shutdown, the system is suppose to "sync" all I/O cache before execution..

In mounting a Live CD/DVD for active writing, I am not sure how LInux handles that type media when it is mounted and open in write mode. The ideas posted for data loss seemingly ONLY AFFECTs device media opened in wirte mode. In read mode, I fail to see how a "bug" exist to cause data loss on any media, albeit Live media, so that which has been promoted about UDF seems to not be consistent with system operations.

In write mode, any media is exposed to something going wrong so, again, I am not sure whether UDF poses any more risk than any other device.

The biggest question is to determine in Puppy where the founders-developers believe the best place to provide what we get in Apple and Microsoft in the way of UDF.

Further, as mentioned, Puppy does have some PETs which might provide, at least, as a stop-gap, the means to mount and read UDF media. But, again, it depends on whether the developer find time and provides effort for making read ability available for the community to test.

Here to help
Last edited by gcmartin on Wed 05 Sep 2012, 22:06, edited 1 time in total.

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#47 Post by Smithy »

Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking straight when I wrote that, the best place to mount would obviously be just to click on the DVD/CD icon on the desktop.

Is there a PET knocking around somewhere? That would be great.
Otherwise I will just keep that code handy to put in the console when needed.

Never had a bad burn from PBurn or Barry K burn to disc.
It even tells you where the disk came from and what properties it has.
I think it helps that everything is totally in ram, love that about puppy.

I think the writing problems in windows, were because there is so much stuff kicking off, like:
"there is a new version of blah blah available, sorry to wreck your disk, and putting clicks on your audio whilst you were recording the other day, try reverting back to previous version or reformat. have a nice day! Love from Adobe, Microsoft etc".

I am slowly changing to writing to multisession disk these days, as everybody thinks that is more reliable.

But like you said previously, if someone comes round with a UDF it would be good now that we know how to mount it!

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#48 Post by Flash »

Smithy wrote:... I am slowly changing to writing to multisession disk these days, as everybody thinks that is more reliable...
Please explain. More reliable than what? UDF is a filesystem. As far as I know it is not considered to be more reliable than any other filesystem that might be used when recording onto a DVD. Do you mean you're running Puppy from a multisession DVD, or that you're just saving things on a multisession DVD? :?

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#49 Post by Smithy »

I mean that I will be writing to a multisession disk and appending data as and when, rather than writing to a UDF disk, which treats a disk as if it was a big floppy or hard drive.

I used to put a UDF disk in, wait for it to mount, then copied something
from the hard drive, then pasted to the UDF disk.

Dismounted the DVD, then another day or week, put the disk in and copied something else and pasted it to the disk.
I think UDF supported up to 8 nested layers so you can create folders within folders on the disk.

So, different principles between multisession disk and udf format disk.
One (udf) acts like a big floppy or hard drive, and the other (multisession) links previous data with fresh data so you can see your old sessions.

gcmartin

We do need UDF .... really shouldn't have to ask for this.

#50 Post by gcmartin »

I still believe that PUPs should have the built-in ability to, at its very least, read a UDF DVD/CD that is placed in its reader.

I think the only reason it is currently missing is that it is a development oversight in the base of PUPs.

Hopefully, those that develop will have the right focus to understand how this can be added to the base for system builds.

Here to help

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