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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff) » Desktop
"Personalize Settings" Shinobar and Barry <Issues Remain>
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 8931
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr 2012, 17:18    Post subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
Even though the Microsoft message indicates this (same message from the Win95 days), you have not had to reboot MS PCs for over a decade when the change is made.

I tested this with Puppy and an XP machine.

1. From Puppy, I used both nmblookup and nbtscan to find the XP machine. It replied with its name.

2. I then changed the name of the XP machine, but did NOT reboot., in spite of two messages to do so.

3. I checked again from Puppy. XP continued to show its old name.

4. I rebooted the XP machine.

5. I checked again from Puppy. The new XP name immediately appeared.

Quote:
And, I know of NO LINUX/UNIX distro I have ever used which demands a reboot on a hostname change.

I don't have an Ubuntu machine running a server to test this, but the documentation is unanimous on how to change the hostname.

1. Manually update /etc/hostname.

2. Manually update /etc/hosts.

3. Either reboot the machine or manually run a script.
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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 2601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr 2012, 23:33    Post subject: Re: hostna,e problem  

gcmartin wrote:
which router are you using for DHCP management?

I have DHCP server and DNS server configured by my self running under Vine Linux.
Maybe usual routers on the market also have the DHCP server running under Linux or similar ones, i guess.

As rcrsn51 tested, the hostname change does not affect to get IP from the DHCP server and no problem with internet access, but the problem is name resolving in the local network.

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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7785
Location: qld

PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2012, 06:46    Post subject:  

@gcmartin

What happens if you right click the network icon in the tray and select "disconnect from network", then wait a few seconds and reconnect using the same procedure but "reconnect to network" should be shown..??

If that doesn't solve your issue, what about disconnecting as mentioned above and reconnecting with either SNS or net_wizard?

I'd be interested to see the results of both.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4127
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2012, 17:48    Post subject: Re: hostna,e problem  

shinobar wrote:
... the hostname change does not affect to get IP from the DHCP server and no problem with internet access, but the problem is name resolving in the local network.
This is half-true on "some" business networks just as I shared.

I NEVER indicated a problem with acquiring an IP.

And YES, the problem is PC registration with the most current information for router and LAN tables. And, as I share, it appears that the most logical place is when FirstRUN detects the change. For, at this point, there is no or little to no network impact in a IP re-request from DHCP server.

Thanks for understanding
Code:
P.S. I haven't used VINES in many years. But, I am aware of its power and I am aware of your use of a PC to do what most all internet users use. Vines is a good selection. But, as u know most wouldn't be willing to make that kind of investment in learning Vines to achieve a firewall-routing-LAN Management PC.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 27 Apr 2012, 17:33    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
@gcmartin

What happens if you right click the network icon in the tray and select "disconnect from network", then wait a few seconds and reconnect using the same procedure but "reconnect to network" should be shown..??

If that doesn't solve your issue, what about disconnecting as mentioned above and reconnecting with either SNS or net_wizard?

I'd be interested to see the results of both.
The router table is updated as soon as the server honors the tray's "Enable".

Sorry I'm tardy on this. I thought I had mentioned this, but, I guess I didn't. Anyway, a casual LAN users might overlook this or not know to do this for correcting this situation, if needed.

If you are looking to address this within FirstRUN, this is perfectly an acceptable solution which immeidately solves the problem...simply!

Hope that helps

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BarryK
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Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 7047
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sat 05 May 2012, 06:46    Post subject:  

I have implemented something in Woof, see blog post:

http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02813

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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
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Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sat 05 May 2012, 08:27    Post subject: Re-connection and /etc/.profile refresh  

BarryK wrote:
I have implemented something in Woof, see blog post:

http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02813

I do not want to restart X only i change the hostname becuause i have no problem with changing the hostname.

Besides, the environment variable HOSTNAME is not refreshed even the X is restarted. The problem is the xwin does not refresh the /etc/.profile. The problem also occurs when we install a pet which has /etc/profile.d stuff.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 06 May 2012, 18:44    Post subject: Re: Re-connection and /etc/.profile refresh  

shinobar wrote:
... Besides, the environment variable HOSTNAME is not refreshed e...
@Hi Shinobar,

In reading this, I've gotten a little confused. I thad thought that when the system is first booted, and when FirstRUN is run. Upon following its instructions to reStart the X-server, the internal system variables and fields I had been posting on does contain the correct information when the desktop restarts.

Further, because of what TaZoC, Playdayz, 01Micko, et. al. had done with you and your FirstRUN, all internal Linux fields reflect consistent information.

Over the past year, I have been checking this in all PUPs as these fields are very important to system operation internally and externally on the LAN>

Isn't your FirstRUN continuing to set fields appropriately or is the above discussion between Barry and yourself about a different FirstRUN other than yours.

Trying to understand so that PUPs can be internally and externally consistent.

As far as I knew, seems your FirstRUN strives were consistent internally. and the reason for my post, recently, was about giving the LAN an accurate reflection of the hostname set from within FirstRUN.

As a user, my total concerns is about ease of use (which we get from your single screen approach to localization), system operation stability (which your approach did by insuring accuracy of internal information, last year), and most recently, a look at how Puppy presents itself to its LAN and its neighbors within the guidelines of the protocols available to it.
Code:
# echo $HOSTNAME
FullSlacko-Laptop
# hostname
FullSlacko-Laptop
# cat /etc/hosts
127.0.0.1 localhost FullSlacko-Laptop
192.168.1.1 pc2
192.168.1.2 pc3
192.168.1.3 pc4
# cat /etc/hostname
FullSlacko-Laptop
Overall, this particular tool from you has seemed to work for developers for the past 2 years. Forgive me for being a little confused.

Here to help
capture11273.png
 Description   Shinobar's Single Screen system setup
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capture11273.png


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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 2601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sun 06 May 2012, 23:38    Post subject: Re: Re-connection and /etc/profile refresh  

shinobar wrote:
... Besides, the environment variable HOSTNAME is not refreshed e...

gcmartin wrote:
# echo $HOSTNAME
FullSlacko-Laptop

Usually yes. You need not restart X.
But only the problem is the Roxterminal in the Lupu, which does not read /etc/profile. In this case, restarting X is helpless because the xwin too does not refresh /etc/profile. You need to reboot PC, or go down to the console and type 'exit', then 'xwin' to refresh environment variables.

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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 2601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012, 00:50    Post subject: Need not re-connect nor restart X  

@BarryK, gcmartin, and to all
Think what happens when we change the hostname.

At the first boot, the Puppy accesses to the DHCP server with the hostname, say 'pupppypcxxx'.
Only the DHCP server in the LAN exept the Puppy itself knows the nane 'pupppypcxxx' at this point of time.
Let's change the hostnane to 'somehost'. No one in the LAN exept the Puppy itself knows the name 'somehost'.
And then, what is the problem? ... Nothing... in usual case.

But gcmartin has ever encountered a problem. It may occur if the DHCP server reports the hostname 'pupppypcxxx' to other LAN system.
I guess it is a special case because most of the router in the market do not offer local DNS. They manage the LAN with only the IP's, and the MAC address in some case. Never use the hostnames.

How about with the Windows?
There is a test report from rcrsn51 regarding how the Windows are managing. I made another test to see how we Puppy should manage, with the Lupu-528 RAM mode.
  1. First boot, the LAN is connected with hostname 'puppypc'.
    Run pnethood, it sees an another PC, Windows 7, in my LAN.
  2. Changed the hostname to 'somehost', but did not restart X.
    Run pnethood, it still sees the Windows 7 PC.
  3. Restart X. Run pnethood, it still sees the Windows 7 PC.

... No problem.

The problem will occur if the Puppy is running samba before. The samba reports its netbios name to the LAN.
You need to restart the samba (need not re-connect, need not restart PC nor X) if you change the hostname when the samba is already running.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4127
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PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012, 11:47    Post subject:  

@Shinobar

That's not entirely true.

When any PC needs DHCP services, it starts with a broadcast. In ethernet, EVERYONE, see the broadcast.

Its NOT AND NEVER WAS some special case. That broadcast is ignored by most, but, all routers see this broadcast. A DHCP server will see and respond to the broadcast at which time the protocol is in a dialogue until acceptance and activation is in place.

If you or others are running syslog services you can and do see the hostname, along with the MAC and the final IP assign. The PCs on the LAN also respond to this information in there tables, depending on what PCs/servers/services you have running.

If you are monitoring entry, status, and exits on the LAN it can be done using any of the 3 items....depending on manufacturer and on administrator

Our job in PUPPY should be to comply to standards....not to only conform when it suits our needs. If we comply, everyone benefits.

The LAN is NOT a collection of individual machines as you imply. It is a SYSTEM of machines in a collection. And there are recordings active in the LAN to facilitate device identification and operations.

Lastly, SAMBA has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PROBLEM or its resolution....NOTHING!!!

Please don't take this as any attack as it is not. I am just sharing what we can do to make PUPs a mature system on the LAN. ;This does not mean that anyone has done anything intentional to have created this issue. I am just calling attention and asking the community to consider addressing it properly.

AS I have been consistent with everyone on this, its NOT a major issue. Even though it AFFECTS EVERYONE, it is a low level affect until you bump up upon a LAN service that responds with some unwarranted results. We can avoid this by addressing this very simple issue somewhere in our PUPPY process. You and Barry hold the keys at system startup to address this very simply....should you choose.

iI feel like I battling and I really shouldn't be. This is in the interest of the general PUPPY community. This is ONLY about this 1 issue and requesting it be addressed! When it is addressed, it benefits ALL Puppy users: Your PUP, my PUP, everyone's PUP.

Lastly, we (you or I) have NO such problems with Windows/Macs doing this kind of thing on the LAN. In fact, I don't have this problem with any h/w NAS on the LANs, either. This is a PUPPY specific approach. The Windows info you share is looking at the netbios protocol. This discussion is and has NEVER BEEN ABOUT NETBIOS. It's about LAN protocol and device standards and their general LAN operations. And,

You have been a big help to all of the users and developers alike. And, I respect that. Thanks for what you have done to get us to this point in time.

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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012, 13:15    Post subject:  

@gcmartin: Am I clear on your situation? You wanted to connect Puppy to an enterprise LAN. You were instructed by the administrator to use a specific hostname. You changed the hostname using the current Puppy procedures.

However, in many other OS's (XP, Ubuntu, etc.) you are then required to do a reboot so that the new name is broadcast to the network. A little research reveals that Vista, Win7 and OS-X may have the same requirement. You feel that Puppy users should not need to do this.

I notice in BK's blog that he has added new code into Woof to address this situation. I am concerned that his changes were never vetted by the community to see if there are any negative side effects.
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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012, 13:33    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
@gcmartin: Am I clear on your situation? You wanted to connect Puppy to an enterprise LAN. You were instructed by the administrator to use a specific hostname. You changed the hostname using the current Puppy procedures.

However, in many other OS's (XP, Ubuntu, etc.) you are then required to do a reboot so that the new name is broadcast to the network. A little research reveals that Vista, Win7 and OS-X may have the same requirement. You feel that Puppy users should not need to do this.

I notice in BK's blog that he has added new code into Woof to address this situation. I am concerned that his changes were never vetted by the community to see if there are any negative side effects.
Thanks Rcrsn51.

In XP (rather since 2000), even though the pop-up says 'reboot', you really haven't needed to do that for years. I was present at the 2000 Launch when Bill Gates indicated this and a "Loud cheer" from the audience when up.

And, in Puppy, there is NO instructions that say 'reboot'. "You really shouldn't have to since a stop the IP and request drives corrected information to the DHCP server." And, think of which you'd rather have to address this. I request of the DHCP server or a Live media reboot which takes me about 3-5 minutes on my laptop (depending of which PUP I am booting with which boot options)?

Here to help

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rcrsn51


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PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012, 14:03    Post subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
In XP (rather since 2000), even though the pop-up says 'reboot', you really haven't needed to do that for years. I was present at the 2000 Launch when Bill Gates indicated this and a "Loud cheer" from the audience when up.

Apparently you didn't read my test report above where I confirmed that a reboot is STILL needed in both XP Home and XP Pro.
Quote:
I notice in BK's blog that he has added new code into Woof to address this situation. I am concerned that his changes were never vetted by the community to see if there are any negative side effects.

Is that a concern to you?
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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012, 14:13    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
gcmartin wrote:
In XP (rather since 2000), even though the pop-up says 'reboot', you really haven't needed to do that for years. I was present at the 2000 Launch when Bill Gates indicated this and a "Loud cheer" from the audience when up.

Apparently you didn't read my test report above where I confirmed that a reboot is STILL needed in both XP Home and XP Pro.
You're right, I haven't read it. I will run a test and report back. I just tested on a recent MAC and this reboot is certainly NOT the case. I did test weeks (maybe months ago) and this wasn't the case on a REDHAT or a SUSE.

But, until then, let's assume you are correct in what you share. What Microsoft was saying since Win95 when this message began appearing is (I para-phrase) "to get this machine in LAN compliance, reboot!" (I think you agree with that...right)

We are merely addressing LAN compliance in Puppy. I hope this is not a semantics discussion.

Edited: Just tested on a Microsoft server test machine. This is NOT the case. The server upon hostname change did re-register with the DHCP server (router) on the LAN. So as not to get into semantics, this merely reports that Microsoft will either ask you reboot to comply or it will do it for you, depending on which of the MS system you have.

Hope this helps

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