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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting
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Terryphi


Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 760
Location: West Wales, Britain.

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep 2011, 06:34    Post subject:  Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting  

Read about the potential threat to dual booting Puppy and other Linux distros with Windows 8:

http://www.itworld.com/it-managementstrategy/205255/windows-8-oem-specs-may-block-linux-booting

There is more here for the seriously geeky:

http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/5552.html

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep 2011, 07:14    Post subject: Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting  

Terryphi wrote:
Read about the potential threat to dual booting Puppy and other Linux distros with Windows 8:
http://www.itworld.com/it-managementstrategy/205255/windows-8-oem-specs-may-block-linux-booting


It is even worse than we suspect . . . Wink
Even reading about it may be subject to copyright or some such blocking . . .

Quote:
Fatal error: Call to a member function set_display() on a non-object in /var/www/itworld/sites/all/modules/features/itw_answers/itw_answers.module on line 430

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep 2011, 08:46    Post subject:  

Thanks indeed for pointing this out to us.

Guys I just love this. This is exactly what I have been warning for
for years. I am a true pessimist and reality always turns out to be
ten times more bad than even my worst nightmares Smile

Haha this is so funny.

Quote:
Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting
New secure boot process leaves unsigned Linux out in the cold

September 20, 2011, 9:45 PM —

After years of trying to cut off Linux growth as a desktop platform on x86 and x64 PCs, Microsoft may have actually figured out a way to stop Linux deployments on client PCs dead in their tracks.
...
EFI, and the later UEFI specification, is not the problem for Linux. The problem is Microsoft's other requirement for any Windows 8-certified client: the system must support secure booting. This hardened boot means that "all firmware and software in the boot process must be signed by a trusted Certificate Authority (CA)," according to slides from a recent presentation on the UEFI boot process made by Arie van der Hoeven, Microsoft Principal Lead Program Manager.

The slides, posted on Garrett's in a blog Tuesday afternoon, reveal Microsoft's plan to lock down the boot process, which Microsoft rightly points out has become a high-value target vector for injecting malware onto Windows PCs. To combat this, Microsoft is requiring all Windows 8 devices to have a hardened boot. Right now, even though there are EFI-ready Linux bootloaders and distros available, none of them are signed, Garrett reminded me.

It's not just a matter of replacing the UEFI system on the device with other, unencrypted, firmware. If all parts of the chain need to have a CA signature, then swapping out a machine's signed EFI layer with, say, an unsigned BIOS or EFI would not work. Garrett described the problem in more detail:


John deMurga can get in trouble if I quote all if it. Read at the first link first Smile
http://www.itworld.com/it-managementstrategy/205255/windows-8-oem-specs-may-block-linux-booting

them have finally found a way to force us to get our own OEM makers of hardware. To go get together to collect money to ask the hardware guys to make our own Linux hardware.

May I give a reasonable prediction. Lobby will ask the European Union to set a law for all of Europe that no ISP will allow a pc to go out on internet that doesn't show this secure UEFI certificate in place.

that is a very likely scenario folks!



Edit

one of the commentators and most likely not the only ask this

Quote:
01NarrativeMode_tw330709924 9 hours ago
Wouldn't the simplest solution be to boot from an external device like a cd or more likely usb key? Dual boot when you want it, walk away with your cache files. Done.


That sounds too simple for them to allow. As I get it them would not allow such booting because it does not have those certificates. ???

Am I wrong? I mean if them to go to such length to secure the hdd booting why would them then allow anybody to boot using any odd CD/DVD/USB with possible malware on it?

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep 2011, 09:11    Post subject:  

Terry's other link give this answer.

Quote:
There is no centralised signing authority for these UEFI keys. If a vendor key is installed on a machine, the only way to get code signed with that key is to get the vendor to perform the signing. A machine may have several keys installed, but if you are unable to get any of them to sign your binary then it won't be installable.


Does that not say it all. I mean why would them give these keys to us?
Them would not get Microsoft money if them do and to have microsoft is the only way to get volume sale of teh product so that is a must.

Maybe Android and Google is the only other "party" big enough to pay the hardware makers to allow for linux? But that will be a linux on Google permission. Who know what them will allow. No root obviously!

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8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep 2011, 11:44    Post subject:  

The latest actions of MS with win8 supposedly for security purposes I see as another way MS is trying to cut out linux.
If you buy a PC with their specs with win8 installed, and their moving away from BIOS, will you even be able to remove their OS in favor of a linux OS?
And evidently, repairing windows with linux will be a thing of the past.

MS says it is for security and then they release Developer editions into the wild that I am sure are being used to an extent to search for ways to introduce a hacker's code into the OS.
If a PC is made without a BIOS, and MS copyrights their replacement for it will it leave all linux OSes unable to install on that PC?
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jafadmin

Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 424

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct 2011, 18:09    Post subject:  

So the war between the engineers and marketing at M$ continues. I'm an IT pro, and I know of NO IT departments that are looking at 8. None.

They're going to relearn the lesson they did with Vista. And, after the Vista debacle, PC manufacturers aren't going to be too eager to sign off on M$'s next madcap scheme.
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gerry

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 946
Location: England

PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct 2011, 03:17    Post subject:  

The EU can go either way: they may look at the situation from an anti-competitive view. They have in the past ruled against MS on those grounds. (Can't remember exactly what it was- to do with bundling apps, I think.)
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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4351

PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct 2011, 04:20    Post subject:  

I think it would be hilarious if mobo manufacturers used a patched coreboot (formerly Linux BIOS) to meet the spec.
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8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct 2011, 04:53    Post subject:  

Imagine PC manufacturers that are told by MS that they have to implement the MS version of a BIOS jumping en-mass to linux. Laughing

Also, I really do not think that software bios by MS is going to happen as they are not going to alienate those with existing PCs, especially businesses, with an OS that will not install on those PCs.

And it is a MS world to a lot of people.
I had a DSL phone repair tech that was very upset that I was not running windows when he wanted to check my modem as the PC saw it.
So I fire up my browser and bring up the modem diagnostics page he wanted and that he said was not possible without windows and IE.

The typical brainwashed pubic courtesy of MS.
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d4p


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 407

PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011, 10:47    Post subject:  

"Maybe Android and Google is the only other "party" big enough to pay the hardware makers to allow for linux? But that will be a linux on Google permission. Who know what them will allow. No root obviously!"


"According to extracts of Mr Isaacson's book, obtained by the Associated Press, Mr Jobs said: "I'm going to destroy Android, because it's a stolen product. I'm willing to go thermonuclear war on this."

He is also quoted as saying: "I will spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Apple's $40 billion [£25bn] in the bank, to right this wrong."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15400984
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firak

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011, 11:47    Post subject:  

I already face same strange problems wt a pc in win7 2011.
Sometink in tis machine is able to fuck syslinux, witout damenge the sd card filesistem. it appeds onuly when I reboot. if i turn off and boot again does not iterfere. I dont' konw if is a ardware issue or e bios comportament.
that has a capacity to create a bug in the mbr of the sd card.
Rebboting and find "boot error" is not normal.

In the begining I thoth that the problem was an old sd card. so I buy a new one.
Now with the new one still this append. egain.
I solve it -never reboot . alwais turn on and off the pc.
But I think this kind of dangers are there already for linux.
ms-windows feel free to use now all the ssd, usbstick, for swap during booting (they call it easyboot), so if they wont they can do much moare than that
my old post is:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=72581
but I tell you. is not a problem of sd card quality.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct 2011, 14:57    Post subject:  

I remember vaguely that I read it here at idg.se in Swedish.
That is our version of PCWorld.com and IDG is an international owner
of computer mags all over the world. Them have IDG New.

This comment reminded me of it. I came to think of it reading this
MS says it is for security
Anyway as I remember it was a kind of proposal to the whole of European Union?

It is about better security. Them sell it like this. As I remember it.

Every computer should have a certificate from Ms Windows
that it has been rid of any malware using the authorized anti virus
that Ms give okay for for their OS.


So if one don't have Ms Win on the computer then one fail to get that
needed certificate to go online. The ISP is by law forbidden to allow
you to go out on the internet.

As I get it we sure can use Linux but not go out on the internet.
Because there is no way to get the certificate!

Now how likely is it that such a law get through European Parliament?
Not easy to know but if one base guesses on who the Anti-Pirates can
shut down servers then it is very likely. Them do anything for the big
companies with a few exceptions like when them criticized Google for
collecting every private hotspot when them took their movies running
streets up and down. Smile

So maybe, just maybe them does not allow that law but it is a Lobbying going on!
I have tried to find the text again but failed.

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nooby

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PostPosted: Mon 31 Oct 2011, 05:41    Post subject:  

I found this.

Stand up for your freedom to install free software

https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement

Quote:
Stand up for your freedom to install free software

The following is a public statement, open for signing.
For more background, please read our more detailed explanation of the issue at
http://fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot

Microsoft has announced that if computer makers wish to distribute
machines with the Windows 8 compatibility logo,
they will have to implement a measure called "Secure Boot."

However, it is currently up for grabs whether this technology will live up
to its name, or will instead earn the name Restricted Boot.

When done correctly, "Secure Boot" is designed to protect against malware
by preventing computers from loading unauthorized binary programs
when booting. In practice, this means that computers implementing it
won't boot unauthorized operating systems -- including initially
authorized systems that have been modified without being re-approved.


This could be a feature deserving of the name, as long as the user
is able to authorize the programs she wants to use, so she can run
free software written and modified by herself or people she trusts.

However, we are concerned that Microsoft and hardware manufacturers
will implement these boot restrictions in a way that will prevent users
from booting anything other than Windows. In this case, we are better
off calling the technology Restricted Boot, since such a requirement
would be a disastrous restriction on computer users and not a security
feature at all.


Now all you optimists would say that the OEMs would allow us to shut the hardware thing off so we can boot puppy.

Theoretically yes but in practice more likely no. Only one percent is not
enough users to make the OEM and hardware people care about us.

Read a good example here.

Quote:
He Who Controls the Bootloader
End of an Era

Scot Hacker, August 2001

http://www.birdhouse.org/beos/byte/30-bootloader/

Quote:
"Be offered BeOS for free to any major computer manufacturer willing to pre-install BeOS on machines alongside Windows. Although few in the Be community ever knew about the discussions, Gassée says that Be was engaged in enthusiastic discussions with Dell, Compaq, Micron, and Hitachi. Taken together, pre-installation arrangements with vendors of this magnitude could have had a major impact on the future of Be and BeOS. But of the four, only Hitachi actually shipped a machine with BeOS pre-installed. The rest apparently backed off after a closer reading of the fine print in their Microsoft Windows License agreements. Hitachi did ship a line of machines (the Flora Prius) with BeOS pre-installed, but made changes to the bootloader -- rendering BeOS invisible to the consumer -- before shipping. Apparently, Hitachi received a little visit from Microsoft just before shipping the Flora Prius, and were reminded of the terms of the license."


Yes I am a fundamentalistisk Pessimist. I trust that if something can get worse it sure will.

In same way as did happen 2001 with BEOS the Linux big guys will buy exceptions for Suse and for Fedora and for Ubuntu but for Puppy we don't have the money to buy these certificates.
The hardware will be set to not allow anything else than certified software to boot and I am sure of that Microsoft will sell this idea to
European Union and them make a law to ISP to not allow us to
use uncertified Linux to reach internet.

Every sign points in that direction. Prove me wrong Smile

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Nov 2011, 07:29    Post subject: hardware  

Then use non-MS hardware like 32-bit ARM (as MS will choose 64-bit) and Puppy will run happily there.
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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Tue 01 Nov 2011, 07:35    Post subject:  

8-bit wrote:
Imagine PC manufacturers that are told by MS that they have to implement the MS version of a BIOS jumping en-mass to linux. Laughing


Ifr they have a large business customer base that resists Windows 8 they may react one way...if their customer base is made of up retail consumers, they will go for the numbers....it's all about the money.
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