I wantto thank you for your help but I'm tired and can't see straight (it is 2a.m.) the puppy started to boot from livecd but then freezes I am begening to think that the comp is just not right but I need a fresh day
so it is good night for me
pelokwin
Need help installing pup on old IBM laptop(solved)
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Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
pelokwin,
If your Win95 installation does not have an autoexec.bat, then perhaps it is best that you not try to boot Puppy my way. I've been using DOS and Windows since dinosaur days and so am accustomed to booting Windows using a long, convoluted autoexec.bat and config.sys. I've been doing so for so long that I forgot, very few people have booted this way since Windows 95 was introduced!
Instead of messing with autoexec.bat and config.sys files, I recommend you boot to Windows, put the flash drive in the USB port, copy vmlinuz, image.gz, and usr_cram.fs from the CD or the extracted .iso file to the flash drive, and also copy pupxusb from the WakeUSB floppy and isolinux.cfg from your extracted .iso image to the flash drive. Then, try booting from the WakeUSB floppy.
If your Win95 installation does not have an autoexec.bat, then perhaps it is best that you not try to boot Puppy my way. I've been using DOS and Windows since dinosaur days and so am accustomed to booting Windows using a long, convoluted autoexec.bat and config.sys. I've been doing so for so long that I forgot, very few people have booted this way since Windows 95 was introduced!
Instead of messing with autoexec.bat and config.sys files, I recommend you boot to Windows, put the flash drive in the USB port, copy vmlinuz, image.gz, and usr_cram.fs from the CD or the extracted .iso file to the flash drive, and also copy pupxusb from the WakeUSB floppy and isolinux.cfg from your extracted .iso image to the flash drive. Then, try booting from the WakeUSB floppy.
Last edited by Sit Heel Speak on Sat 15 Apr 2006, 17:49, edited 2 times in total.
pelokwin, if you are getting a third "15" option, it sounds to me like you used the word "menuitem" instead of the word "menudefault" for the third line under "[menu]" in Step 9 of my lengthy post above. Only the first two lines under the "[menu]" header should use the term "menuitem". Double check to make sure this is not the case.OK,
after a long night of setbacks I got to the reboot stage:
At the start up menu I get 3 choices windows,puppy, and 15???? I take puppy and it says
Usage:
GRUB--config-file=FILE
the options are case sensative you must use lowercase letters. Example: GRUB --config-file=(hd0,0)/boot/grub/menu.1st
so ......any ideas?
As far as the GRUB usage comment, it sounds like your GRUB line does not follow the syntax, capitalization and format exactly as I typed it in Step 8 above. Go back and make sure you have copied it exactly, including spaces, zeros and capitalization in all the same places.
The only other problem I could foresee if you are getting that GRUB usage error is if your "menu.lst" is not properly identified in the GRUB line or as an "lst" file. For one, make sure that your GRUB line and your "menu.lst" file both use the three-digit extension "lst" and not "1st". In other words, the first digit is the letter L and not a number 1. For two, make sure that you are using a valid "lst" file to create "menu.lst" and not simply trying to create a Text file called "menu.lst". It is easiest to do this by copying the "menu.lst" file from the link MU provided above and then simply editing it to have the language I described in my post.
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Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
Suggestions if unfamiliar with c:\autoexec.bat
toddyjoe: as indicated above, pelokwin is not accustomed to dealing with an autoexec.bat file. Therefore our instructions for editing config.sys and creating autoexec.bat on the C: drive are mystifying and useless.
pelokwin: instead of doing it the hard way as toddyjoe and I do it, forget about creating an autoexec.bat and editing config.sys. And forget about using grub.exe.
Instead, either just burn a LiveCD from the .iso image and boot from that, or else do this:
From Windows:
1. Create a temporary directory C:\puptemp. To do this, start Explorer, navigate up to C:\, right-click in the right window, New, Folder, and then type
puptemp
in the new folder's namespace. Enter. Close Explorer.
2. Download the Puppy 1.04 Chubby Puppy or Puppy 1.0.8-Mozilla ISO image to C:\puptemp.
3. Extract the ISO image to C:\puptemp using ISOBuster or a similar program.
4. Copy vmlinuz, image.gz, and usr_cram.fs from C:\puptemp to the flash drive's root directory.
5. Download WakeUSBv01e-img.zip at http://www.murga.org/~puppy/download.php?id=1277 (right-click the link and choose Save Target As and navigate with the mouse to put C:\puptemp in the Save In box).
6. Extract WakeUSBv01e-img.zip using WinZip, EasyZip, TugZip or a similar program (my favorite is TugZip). Extract it to the same C:\puptemp directory as the ISO image above.
7. Format a floppy disk. If it has bad sectors, discard it and format another one.
8. Use rawrite.exe (it's in the WakeUSB .zip, in the subdirectory c:\puptemp where you extracted it to) to put wakeusb.img onto the freshly formatted floppy. The easiest way to do this is to run the MAKEDISK.BAT program which WakeUSBv01e-img.zip provides.
9. Copy pupxusb from your newly-created WakeUSB floppy to the root directory of the flash drive (the same place where vmlinuz, image.gz, and usr_cram.fs are), then copy isolinux.cfg from the subdirectory where you extracted the .iso image file to.
10. Shut down Windows and power off your computer.
11. With the flash drive plugged into the USB port and the WakeUSB floppy in the A: drive, turn on your computer.
This should result in the computer booting from the floppy drive; and then the computer will (once you hit the appropriate keystrokes which the floppy's boot program requests--I recommend you accept the defaults, and if that doesn't work then try choosing the "acpi=off" option) load and run Puppy from the flash drive.
If it doesn't work from USB flash drive, then repeat steps 1 through 11 except don't copy to the flash drive's root directory; instead, copy the three files vmlinuz, image.gz, and usr_cram.fs from c:\puptemp to the root directory of your C: drive (that is, C:\), and then rename pupxusb on the floppy to pupxide and copy the new pupxide (make sure there's no dot at the end of the name) likewise to the root directory of your C: drive. Then, Start / Run / notepad {enter}, open the file A:\autoexec.bat, and in the place where it says
sda1
change it to
hda1
and in the place where it says
PUP100
change it to
PUP001
Next, copy isolinux.cfg from the subdirectory where you extracted the .iso image to, to C:\, and edit the new C:\isolinux.cfg in Notepad and in the two places where it says "pup100" change that to "pup001".
And then, with the floppy in the drive, reboot your computer. This will load Puppy from your hard disk, and you're on your way.
Report back here any problems.
pelokwin: instead of doing it the hard way as toddyjoe and I do it, forget about creating an autoexec.bat and editing config.sys. And forget about using grub.exe.
Instead, either just burn a LiveCD from the .iso image and boot from that, or else do this:
From Windows:
1. Create a temporary directory C:\puptemp. To do this, start Explorer, navigate up to C:\, right-click in the right window, New, Folder, and then type
puptemp
in the new folder's namespace. Enter. Close Explorer.
2. Download the Puppy 1.04 Chubby Puppy or Puppy 1.0.8-Mozilla ISO image to C:\puptemp.
3. Extract the ISO image to C:\puptemp using ISOBuster or a similar program.
4. Copy vmlinuz, image.gz, and usr_cram.fs from C:\puptemp to the flash drive's root directory.
5. Download WakeUSBv01e-img.zip at http://www.murga.org/~puppy/download.php?id=1277 (right-click the link and choose Save Target As and navigate with the mouse to put C:\puptemp in the Save In box).
6. Extract WakeUSBv01e-img.zip using WinZip, EasyZip, TugZip or a similar program (my favorite is TugZip). Extract it to the same C:\puptemp directory as the ISO image above.
7. Format a floppy disk. If it has bad sectors, discard it and format another one.
8. Use rawrite.exe (it's in the WakeUSB .zip, in the subdirectory c:\puptemp where you extracted it to) to put wakeusb.img onto the freshly formatted floppy. The easiest way to do this is to run the MAKEDISK.BAT program which WakeUSBv01e-img.zip provides.
9. Copy pupxusb from your newly-created WakeUSB floppy to the root directory of the flash drive (the same place where vmlinuz, image.gz, and usr_cram.fs are), then copy isolinux.cfg from the subdirectory where you extracted the .iso image file to.
10. Shut down Windows and power off your computer.
11. With the flash drive plugged into the USB port and the WakeUSB floppy in the A: drive, turn on your computer.
This should result in the computer booting from the floppy drive; and then the computer will (once you hit the appropriate keystrokes which the floppy's boot program requests--I recommend you accept the defaults, and if that doesn't work then try choosing the "acpi=off" option) load and run Puppy from the flash drive.
If it doesn't work from USB flash drive, then repeat steps 1 through 11 except don't copy to the flash drive's root directory; instead, copy the three files vmlinuz, image.gz, and usr_cram.fs from c:\puptemp to the root directory of your C: drive (that is, C:\), and then rename pupxusb on the floppy to pupxide and copy the new pupxide (make sure there's no dot at the end of the name) likewise to the root directory of your C: drive. Then, Start / Run / notepad {enter}, open the file A:\autoexec.bat, and in the place where it says
sda1
change it to
hda1
and in the place where it says
PUP100
change it to
PUP001
Next, copy isolinux.cfg from the subdirectory where you extracted the .iso image to, to C:\, and edit the new C:\isolinux.cfg in Notepad and in the two places where it says "pup100" change that to "pup001".
And then, with the floppy in the drive, reboot your computer. This will load Puppy from your hard disk, and you're on your way.
Report back here any problems.
Last edited by Sit Heel Speak on Sat 15 Apr 2006, 17:54, edited 5 times in total.
In fairness, pelokwin seems to be pretty close to getting it working right. It cannot hurt to offer some feedback for him (or others trying this) in case he decides to give it one last try. It was only two or three months ago that I was a Windows 95 user with no Linux experience and no experience messing with "config.sys" and "autoexec.bat" files so I feel his pain. If I can figure this stuff out with a little patience and persistence (and swearing), perhaps pelokwin can as well.toddyjoe: as indicated above, pelokwin is not accustomed to dealing with an autoexec.bat file. Therefore our instructions for editing config.sys and creating autoexec.bat on the C: drive are mystifying and useless.
One thing I know is certain, I am definitely learning a lot of additional ideas from your posts in this thread, Sit Heel Speak!
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Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
pelokwin: are you still with us? I hope so; I admire persistence in the face of adversity ( 
)...
Here is what your isolinux.cfg on the flash drive (or in the root directory of your hard drive, if you boot that way) should look like to initially start Puppy 1.0.8ri. If you want to edit isolinux.cfg in order to attempt larger ramdrive and/or pup100 filesize, then I recommend you download P.J. Naughter's Windows editor Notpad, at http://www.naughter.com/notpad.html. Notpad is shareware but you can use it up to a month free, and its key advantage is that it respects the end-of-line-character(s) conventions in both Unix/Linux files such as isolinux.cfg and in MS-DOS files such as c:\autoexec.bat.
The below is an isolinux.cfg for a 130MB (1MB=1024x1024 bytes) ramdisk and a 128MB pup100 file. It's pup001 if Puppy is on the hard disk and pup100 if on the USB flash drive:
default 1
DISPLAY BOOT.MSG
SAY MENU: 2 No acpi 3 Choose HD (ENTER only or 10sec timeout for normal boot)
prompt 1
label 1
kernel vmlinuz
append root=/dev/ram0 initrd=image.gz ramdisk_size=13312 PFILE=pup100-none-131072
label 2
kernel vmlinuz
append root=/dev/ram0 initrd=image.gz acpi=off ramdisk_size=13312 PFILE=pup100-none-131072
label 3
kernel vmlinuz
append root=/dev/ram0 initrd=image.gz acpi=off ramdisk_size=13312 PFILE=ask
label 5
kernel vmlinuz
append root=/dev/ram0 initrd=image.gz ramdisk_size=13312 PFILE=cd
timeout 100
If you are booting from a WakeUSB floppy, then you want to make sure that the "PFILE=pup100-none-" or "PFILE=pup001-none-" numbers in isolinux.cfg are the same as the "set pfile=PFILE=PUP100-none-" or "set pfile=PFILE=PUP001-none-" numbers in a:\autoexec.bat, and, the "ramdisk_size=" numbers in isolinux.cfg all equal exactly 102.4 times what a:\autoexec.bat specifies for XMSDSK size in megabytes.
If you are booting from hard disk using grub.exe, then the "PFILE=pup100-none-" or "PFILE=pup001-none-"number in menu.lst must match the "PFILE=pup100-none-" or "PFILE=pup001-none-"numbers in isolinux.cfg.
I am unsure whether Puppy 1 requires you to use a larger ramdisk size than your pup100 or pup001 file.
Feel free to post questions here. I'm off now to try running Puppy 2 Alpha with a 192MB ramdisk and a 1GB swapfile on the hard drive, using a pup100 (or, whatever the equivalent is in Puppy 2) filesize of 512MB...
Sit
)...Here is what your isolinux.cfg on the flash drive (or in the root directory of your hard drive, if you boot that way) should look like to initially start Puppy 1.0.8ri. If you want to edit isolinux.cfg in order to attempt larger ramdrive and/or pup100 filesize, then I recommend you download P.J. Naughter's Windows editor Notpad, at http://www.naughter.com/notpad.html. Notpad is shareware but you can use it up to a month free, and its key advantage is that it respects the end-of-line-character(s) conventions in both Unix/Linux files such as isolinux.cfg and in MS-DOS files such as c:\autoexec.bat.
The below is an isolinux.cfg for a 130MB (1MB=1024x1024 bytes) ramdisk and a 128MB pup100 file. It's pup001 if Puppy is on the hard disk and pup100 if on the USB flash drive:
default 1
DISPLAY BOOT.MSG
SAY MENU: 2 No acpi 3 Choose HD (ENTER only or 10sec timeout for normal boot)
prompt 1
label 1
kernel vmlinuz
append root=/dev/ram0 initrd=image.gz ramdisk_size=13312 PFILE=pup100-none-131072
label 2
kernel vmlinuz
append root=/dev/ram0 initrd=image.gz acpi=off ramdisk_size=13312 PFILE=pup100-none-131072
label 3
kernel vmlinuz
append root=/dev/ram0 initrd=image.gz acpi=off ramdisk_size=13312 PFILE=ask
label 5
kernel vmlinuz
append root=/dev/ram0 initrd=image.gz ramdisk_size=13312 PFILE=cd
timeout 100
If you are booting from a WakeUSB floppy, then you want to make sure that the "PFILE=pup100-none-" or "PFILE=pup001-none-" numbers in isolinux.cfg are the same as the "set pfile=PFILE=PUP100-none-" or "set pfile=PFILE=PUP001-none-" numbers in a:\autoexec.bat, and, the "ramdisk_size=" numbers in isolinux.cfg all equal exactly 102.4 times what a:\autoexec.bat specifies for XMSDSK size in megabytes.
If you are booting from hard disk using grub.exe, then the "PFILE=pup100-none-" or "PFILE=pup001-none-"number in menu.lst must match the "PFILE=pup100-none-" or "PFILE=pup001-none-"numbers in isolinux.cfg.
I am unsure whether Puppy 1 requires you to use a larger ramdisk size than your pup100 or pup001 file.
Feel free to post questions here. I'm off now to try running Puppy 2 Alpha with a 192MB ramdisk and a 1GB swapfile on the hard drive, using a pup100 (or, whatever the equivalent is in Puppy 2) filesize of 512MB...
Sit
Last edited by Sit Heel Speak on Sat 15 Apr 2006, 17:58, edited 1 time in total.
I'm having a similar problem aa pelokwin, trying to run Puppy Linux on old Thinkpad 310ED. Puppy runs fine, seems to detect the hardware all right up to the point "tmpfs done" (hard to say though, everything scrolls by real fast. Then I get a slew of messages "__alloc_pages: 1-order allocation failed (gfp=0x1d2/0). The next line says "VM: killing process init".toddyjoe wrote:pelokwin, here is my promised explanation/tutorial. My Thinkpad 310ED had Windows 95 up until about three months ago so this explanation is geared toward someone like you with the same experience.
The Thinkpad has a 166Mhz processor but only 32M of RAM. It will boot DSL though and at present I've got DSL on a partition with a 64M Swap partition. I've got Win98SE on another partition. I was wondering if I could get Puppy to work by using the swap partition and just how to do that. I've tried Toddyjoe's solution using Grub but the same problem occurred. I'm using Puppy 1.08 BTW, same problems with 1.08RC1 and 1.06. The CD is fine, tested it on my desktop machine. I could enlarge the swap partition if that would make a difference although I've heard that twice the installed RAM is optimal and that a larger swap partition could cause problems. But could someone tell me first how to get Puppy to recognize the swap partition?
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Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
ckx:
My Puppy experience totals less than three weeks now, so if I am under a misapprehension, then I hope someone will correct me, but it is my understanding that Puppy will automatically find and use any Linux swap partition that is present.
However, on the very front page http://puppylinux.com Barry says:
"...These are extraordinary goals, yet Puppy achieves them all. Obviously, some objectives have qualifications, for example, to load totally into RAM the PC must have either 128M RAM or failing that a swap partition."
So, I infer that the total of your RAM and your swap space must be at least 128MB.
So, try enlarging the swap partition to 128MB (actually, 96MB might do, since 32+96=128) and if that doesn't work then try 256MB. However be advised that I am unaware of any issues which may arise from the use of the swap partition by more than one distro.
If enlarging the swap partition doesn't work, then perhaps you might look at the thread "Linux recomendation for old 32 MB 75 MHz laptop" (sic) in the Miscellaneous section of the forum.
Or, perhaps you should take the suggestion of krumpli on page 1 of this thread and try running Puppy Alpha 2. As krumpli quoted:
"My suggestion, strictly a thought, is to try puppy2 alpha version and see if it loads. according to "how puppy works take 2"
Quote:
3. Works on PCs with very little RAM
Puppy2 will take advantage of more RAM, but if your PC is RAM-challenged, no problem.
The key point here is that the personal storage (I also refer to this as the persistent storage) partition or pup_save.3fs file is not loaded into RAM, only mounted read only, and only the "working files" are in RAM.
What you will have in a RAM-challenged PC is the kernel, initrd.gz (uncompressed) and the "working files" in RAM. Those "working files" are only new and changed files, so there will hardly be anything in RAM, meaning that we are going to find our Pup running on very minimal systems ....we have yet to find out how little RAM will work. "
Good luck,
Sit
My Puppy experience totals less than three weeks now, so if I am under a misapprehension, then I hope someone will correct me, but it is my understanding that Puppy will automatically find and use any Linux swap partition that is present.
However, on the very front page http://puppylinux.com Barry says:
"...These are extraordinary goals, yet Puppy achieves them all. Obviously, some objectives have qualifications, for example, to load totally into RAM the PC must have either 128M RAM or failing that a swap partition."
So, I infer that the total of your RAM and your swap space must be at least 128MB.
So, try enlarging the swap partition to 128MB (actually, 96MB might do, since 32+96=128) and if that doesn't work then try 256MB. However be advised that I am unaware of any issues which may arise from the use of the swap partition by more than one distro.
If enlarging the swap partition doesn't work, then perhaps you might look at the thread "Linux recomendation for old 32 MB 75 MHz laptop" (sic) in the Miscellaneous section of the forum.
Or, perhaps you should take the suggestion of krumpli on page 1 of this thread and try running Puppy Alpha 2. As krumpli quoted:
"My suggestion, strictly a thought, is to try puppy2 alpha version and see if it loads. according to "how puppy works take 2"
Quote:
3. Works on PCs with very little RAM
Puppy2 will take advantage of more RAM, but if your PC is RAM-challenged, no problem.
The key point here is that the personal storage (I also refer to this as the persistent storage) partition or pup_save.3fs file is not loaded into RAM, only mounted read only, and only the "working files" are in RAM.
What you will have in a RAM-challenged PC is the kernel, initrd.gz (uncompressed) and the "working files" in RAM. Those "working files" are only new and changed files, so there will hardly be anything in RAM, meaning that we are going to find our Pup running on very minimal systems ....we have yet to find out how little RAM will work. "
Good luck,
Sit
sit heel speak...toddyjoe..,
Hi, I needed some "not looking at a computer screen" time away. So I read the last post and well as far as sit heel speak man you are so above my understanding in around 1983 my mom sent me to computer classes and after a week of making the thing count to 100 gazillion I went out for the baseball team. But I am learning a little bit each day. Although this is frustrating at times I think it is worth it so even though I don't understand all of what you are saying it helps alot. Thank you for shar
ing your knowledge. Toddyjoe I am going to relook at every step you told
me. I am not sure I told you but I started the whole thing over from the start so I re downloaded everything and what do you know the live CD worked right up untill the part where pup asks you "Q's" then it froze. So Sunday night I will give it a look and I WILL PUT PUPPY ON MY LAPTOP!!! and learn some more about computers also. thank you.
pelokwin
Hi, I needed some "not looking at a computer screen" time away. So I read the last post and well as far as sit heel speak man you are so above my understanding in around 1983 my mom sent me to computer classes and after a week of making the thing count to 100 gazillion I went out for the baseball team. But I am learning a little bit each day. Although this is frustrating at times I think it is worth it so even though I don't understand all of what you are saying it helps alot. Thank you for shar
ing your knowledge. Toddyjoe I am going to relook at every step you told
me. I am not sure I told you but I started the whole thing over from the start so I re downloaded everything and what do you know the live CD worked right up untill the part where pup asks you "Q's" then it froze. So Sunday night I will give it a look and I WILL PUT PUPPY ON MY LAPTOP!!! and learn some more about computers also. thank you.
pelokwin
I'm just a passing thought in this world
-
Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
pelokwin: just to give you a little encouragement: today I did succeed in booting Puppy 2 alpha on my laptop, downloaded from
http://www.pupweb.org/test/
and it has a much sharper look (better fonts, snappier performance) than Puppy 1.0.8. It also needs less memory.
I am booting Puppy 2 from my hard disk using grub.exe as described above. The menu.lst I am using, I give below. However, despite exhaustive efforts I have not yet succeeded in getting Puppy 2 to load from my flash drive, neither booting from floppy nor from disk--only gotten it to load from disk, booted from disk.
My skillset is in DOS/Windows and comes from years of practice (and suffering) as a user; I do not work in the industry. I am as much of a newbie in Linux as you are. When I see the posts of such masters as BarryK, GuestToo, MU, NathanF, Pizzasgood and others I feel very humbled and honored to have their help. And I have now learned just enough about Linux to suspect that getting Puppy to boot, load, and run reliably from USB devices is going to require that I re-develop my (very rusty) programming skills!
It is possible that the USB 1.1 controller on my Thinkpad is just barely within timing tolerance limits for Puppy 1.0.8 but cannot support Puppy 2. It is possible that the USB controller on your older Thinkpad cannot run Puppy.
Therefore, I would recommend that you keep trying to boot from CD and be more specific about what error message you are getting, and exactly what happened immediately leading up to the error, or else copy vmlinuz, image.gz, usr_cram.fs, and isolinux.cfg to c:\, put a pupxide file there also, and try booting using grub via either toddyjoes' or my method, called from a single-line autoexec.bat
c:\boot\grub.exe --config-file=(hd0,0)/boot/grub/menu.lst
using this c:\boot\grub\menu.lst:
timeout 0
title Puppy booted by grub and residing on hard disk
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
kernel (hd0,0)/vmlinuz root=/dev/ram0 PSLEEP=25 PFILE=pup001-none-131072 PHOME=hda1
initrd (hd0,0)/image.gz
boot
(PFILE= is on the same line as kernel...)
This menu.lst will work to boot Puppy 1.0.8.
To boot Puppy 2 from hard disk, with its files loaded similarly in C:\, use this menu.lst:
timeout 0
title Puppy USB
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
kernel (hd0,0)/vmlinuz root=/dev/ram0 PSLEEP=25 PFILE=pup001-none-131072 PHOME=hda1 PMEDIA=idehd
initrd (hd0,0)/initrd.gz
boot
I am unsure whether Puppy 2 needs the PSLEEP=, PFILE=, and PHOME= parameters, but this menu.lst does work. I am sending this from the new SeaMonkey browser in Puppy 2, booted using the above menu.lst with grub.exe.
Good luck,
Sit Heel Speak
http://www.pupweb.org/test/
and it has a much sharper look (better fonts, snappier performance) than Puppy 1.0.8. It also needs less memory.
I am booting Puppy 2 from my hard disk using grub.exe as described above. The menu.lst I am using, I give below. However, despite exhaustive efforts I have not yet succeeded in getting Puppy 2 to load from my flash drive, neither booting from floppy nor from disk--only gotten it to load from disk, booted from disk.
My skillset is in DOS/Windows and comes from years of practice (and suffering) as a user; I do not work in the industry. I am as much of a newbie in Linux as you are. When I see the posts of such masters as BarryK, GuestToo, MU, NathanF, Pizzasgood and others I feel very humbled and honored to have their help. And I have now learned just enough about Linux to suspect that getting Puppy to boot, load, and run reliably from USB devices is going to require that I re-develop my (very rusty) programming skills!
It is possible that the USB 1.1 controller on my Thinkpad is just barely within timing tolerance limits for Puppy 1.0.8 but cannot support Puppy 2. It is possible that the USB controller on your older Thinkpad cannot run Puppy.
Therefore, I would recommend that you keep trying to boot from CD and be more specific about what error message you are getting, and exactly what happened immediately leading up to the error, or else copy vmlinuz, image.gz, usr_cram.fs, and isolinux.cfg to c:\, put a pupxide file there also, and try booting using grub via either toddyjoes' or my method, called from a single-line autoexec.bat
c:\boot\grub.exe --config-file=(hd0,0)/boot/grub/menu.lst
using this c:\boot\grub\menu.lst:
timeout 0
title Puppy booted by grub and residing on hard disk
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
kernel (hd0,0)/vmlinuz root=/dev/ram0 PSLEEP=25 PFILE=pup001-none-131072 PHOME=hda1
initrd (hd0,0)/image.gz
boot
(PFILE= is on the same line as kernel...)
This menu.lst will work to boot Puppy 1.0.8.
To boot Puppy 2 from hard disk, with its files loaded similarly in C:\, use this menu.lst:
timeout 0
title Puppy USB
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
kernel (hd0,0)/vmlinuz root=/dev/ram0 PSLEEP=25 PFILE=pup001-none-131072 PHOME=hda1 PMEDIA=idehd
initrd (hd0,0)/initrd.gz
boot
I am unsure whether Puppy 2 needs the PSLEEP=, PFILE=, and PHOME= parameters, but this menu.lst does work. I am sending this from the new SeaMonkey browser in Puppy 2, booted using the above menu.lst with grub.exe.
Good luck,
Sit Heel Speak
OK
Hey S.H.S.
I am still getting that d%mm msg about the "case sensative letters" so next I try to boot from CD and this is what I get
Error:PCI UHCI/OHCI/EHCI USB host controller not found
ASPIDISK.SYS IS NOT INSTALLED IT THEN LETS ME GO ON I then go through the regular stuff till Puppy cannot find a suitable partition for your personal data file if you wantto use a USB drive for this type type sda1 then enter else just press to run puppy totally in ramdisk in the latter case no personal will be saved the USB flash or hard drive must have a MSDOS or VFAT partition to make the USB drive the defult choice you need to remaster isolinux.cfg with PHOME=sda1
The next "bad news" msg. is ramdisk to small no place for usr.crm.fs to mount There is more stuff but it runs through too fast. now after all that puppy asks me what kind of mouse, keybord and screen I have it is the screen part that my life w/ puppy ends puppy asks me to choose a X server to run puppy graphics mode the two choises are XVESA or XORG and no matter what I pick after the wizards are done the comp. just stops
this is the specs for my 380ed Think Pad
Processor Intel Pentium 166 MHz with MMX
Level 1 Cache 16 kB
Level 2 Cache 256kB L2
RAM 79MB
RAM type 64-bit EDO SO-DIMM
Hard Drive type type= 3.0 GB, 13 ms
Hard Drive transfer speed untested (max)
CD-ROM internal, 8-20X
Screen 12.1 inch color, 65536 colors, active TFT, 100:1 contrast
Video Processor NeoMagic MagicGraph128ZV (NM2093), on PCI 2.1 bus
Video RAM 1.125 MB embedded
Video Resolution (LCD) 800x600 16-bit color
Video Resolution (CRT) 1024x768 256 color (max)
Ports Serial, Parallel, PCMCIA (2), PS/2, video, infrared
Mouse Trackpoint (eraserhead)
PCMCIA Slots 2 (two type II or one type III)
PCMCIA CardBus compatibility? No.
PCMCIA Controller CL-PD6729 (PCMCIA spec 2.1 compatible)
Sound Hardware Sound Blaster Pro TM
Battery Type Lithium Ion (non-intelligent)
Weight (PC) 7.0 pounds (3.2 kg) with battery
Weight (AC adaptor) ?
Thickness 2.4 inches (62 mm)
AC Adaptor Output ? V, ? A, 35 watts max
Modem None
also take a look through my posts from the start to see if you can find any other useful info to what I might be screwing up
Thanks for keeping with me
Pelokwin
Hey S.H.S.
I am still getting that d%mm msg about the "case sensative letters" so next I try to boot from CD and this is what I get
Error:PCI UHCI/OHCI/EHCI USB host controller not found
ASPIDISK.SYS IS NOT INSTALLED IT THEN LETS ME GO ON I then go through the regular stuff till Puppy cannot find a suitable partition for your personal data file if you wantto use a USB drive for this type type sda1 then enter else just press to run puppy totally in ramdisk in the latter case no personal will be saved the USB flash or hard drive must have a MSDOS or VFAT partition to make the USB drive the defult choice you need to remaster isolinux.cfg with PHOME=sda1
The next "bad news" msg. is ramdisk to small no place for usr.crm.fs to mount There is more stuff but it runs through too fast. now after all that puppy asks me what kind of mouse, keybord and screen I have it is the screen part that my life w/ puppy ends puppy asks me to choose a X server to run puppy graphics mode the two choises are XVESA or XORG and no matter what I pick after the wizards are done the comp. just stops
this is the specs for my 380ed Think Pad
Processor Intel Pentium 166 MHz with MMX
Level 1 Cache 16 kB
Level 2 Cache 256kB L2
RAM 79MB
RAM type 64-bit EDO SO-DIMM
Hard Drive type type= 3.0 GB, 13 ms
Hard Drive transfer speed untested (max)
CD-ROM internal, 8-20X
Screen 12.1 inch color, 65536 colors, active TFT, 100:1 contrast
Video Processor NeoMagic MagicGraph128ZV (NM2093), on PCI 2.1 bus
Video RAM 1.125 MB embedded
Video Resolution (LCD) 800x600 16-bit color
Video Resolution (CRT) 1024x768 256 color (max)
Ports Serial, Parallel, PCMCIA (2), PS/2, video, infrared
Mouse Trackpoint (eraserhead)
PCMCIA Slots 2 (two type II or one type III)
PCMCIA CardBus compatibility? No.
PCMCIA Controller CL-PD6729 (PCMCIA spec 2.1 compatible)
Sound Hardware Sound Blaster Pro TM
Battery Type Lithium Ion (non-intelligent)
Weight (PC) 7.0 pounds (3.2 kg) with battery
Weight (AC adaptor) ?
Thickness 2.4 inches (62 mm)
AC Adaptor Output ? V, ? A, 35 watts max
Modem None
also take a look through my posts from the start to see if you can find any other useful info to what I might be screwing up
Thanks for keeping with me
Pelokwin
I'm just a passing thought in this world
the neomagic-chips are very problematic in puppy.
Search the forum for it...
example:
http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=5788
However, there are certain models, and cherriepuppy reported success in that thread.
Download his conf, print it out, then in xorgwizard choose the "tweak"-option.
There you can edit the configfile, and try to use values from cherrypuppies config.
Mark
Search the forum for it...
example:
http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=5788
However, there are certain models, and cherriepuppy reported success in that thread.
Download his conf, print it out, then in xorgwizard choose the "tweak"-option.
There you can edit the configfile, and try to use values from cherrypuppies config.
Mark
-
Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
Guys...we've been missing the obvious.
Right on the front page, www.puppyos.com, the developer of Puppy, Professor Barry Kauler (BarryK) says, "...the PC must have either 128MB RAM or failing that a swap partition."
pelokwin has only 79MB of RAM, and (presumably) no Linux swap partition.
So, either pelokwin must install more RAM in the laptop, or else we must somehow devise a way to create a Linux swap partition on the hard disk.
Questions to pelokwin:
1. Can you install more RAM in it, to bring the total up to 128MB?
If not, then
2. Is it an option, to sacrifice its existing Windows 95 installation, in other words wipe the hard disk clean and start from a blank hard disk?
3. Are you able to network this Thinkpad to your other machine?
4. What is currently on the hard disk? Windows 95? Important data? Can you back all that matters to you on the hard disk up, to CD-ROM or another medium, or else transfer it over to the other machine via a network?
Discussion:
I am thinking, --I do not have a LiveCD, so don't know--does the LiveCD contain partitioning software, and can it autoboot? If not, then pelokwin can obtain a Linux-on-a-single-floppy which we choose, which will repartition the hard disk into one main FAT32 partition, size 2.75 GB, set active, and one 256MB EXT2 Linux swap partition. And then, after it is so partitioned (and formatted), installing from the LiveCD should work, provided pelokwin can boot the LiveCD, say for example from a boot floppy with appropriate CD drivers if needed (the Win95 emergency boot floppy should work for this purpose, once the Linux boot floppy has reformatted the second partition appropriately).
Does this seem logical, to those of you who have installed Puppy from the LiveCD (I didn't)?
Pelokwin, some more questions:
5. Does booting from a Windows 95 --or better, if you can get one, a Windows 98-- emergency boot floppy, give you the ability to directory the LiveCD from a DOS prompt?
6. If we can choose such a single-floppy Linux for you, can you download it, extract it, rawrite it to a floppy, boot the floppy, and enter commands at its # prompt exactly as we prescribe, with no typing mistakes?
7. Please do the following command in a DOS window:
C:>type c:\config.sys>c:\diagnose.txt
and copy c:\diagnose.txt onto a floppy, take it over to the computer you are surfing to here with, open diagnose.txt in Notepad, highlight all its text, and paste it into the reply window.
If putting more RAM in is not an option, and if a Linux swap partition cannot be created for one reason or another, then we must talk pelokwin step-by-step through the process of installing grub.exe and Puppy 2 alpha, which has a RAM requirement (if I read the news announcement correctly) of only 32MB.
I want the answers to the above 7 questions before I general this beach-assault.
Right on the front page, www.puppyos.com, the developer of Puppy, Professor Barry Kauler (BarryK) says, "...the PC must have either 128MB RAM or failing that a swap partition."
pelokwin has only 79MB of RAM, and (presumably) no Linux swap partition.
So, either pelokwin must install more RAM in the laptop, or else we must somehow devise a way to create a Linux swap partition on the hard disk.
Questions to pelokwin:
1. Can you install more RAM in it, to bring the total up to 128MB?
If not, then
2. Is it an option, to sacrifice its existing Windows 95 installation, in other words wipe the hard disk clean and start from a blank hard disk?
3. Are you able to network this Thinkpad to your other machine?
4. What is currently on the hard disk? Windows 95? Important data? Can you back all that matters to you on the hard disk up, to CD-ROM or another medium, or else transfer it over to the other machine via a network?
Discussion:
I am thinking, --I do not have a LiveCD, so don't know--does the LiveCD contain partitioning software, and can it autoboot? If not, then pelokwin can obtain a Linux-on-a-single-floppy which we choose, which will repartition the hard disk into one main FAT32 partition, size 2.75 GB, set active, and one 256MB EXT2 Linux swap partition. And then, after it is so partitioned (and formatted), installing from the LiveCD should work, provided pelokwin can boot the LiveCD, say for example from a boot floppy with appropriate CD drivers if needed (the Win95 emergency boot floppy should work for this purpose, once the Linux boot floppy has reformatted the second partition appropriately).
Does this seem logical, to those of you who have installed Puppy from the LiveCD (I didn't)?
Pelokwin, some more questions:
5. Does booting from a Windows 95 --or better, if you can get one, a Windows 98-- emergency boot floppy, give you the ability to directory the LiveCD from a DOS prompt?
6. If we can choose such a single-floppy Linux for you, can you download it, extract it, rawrite it to a floppy, boot the floppy, and enter commands at its # prompt exactly as we prescribe, with no typing mistakes?
7. Please do the following command in a DOS window:
C:>type c:\config.sys>c:\diagnose.txt
and copy c:\diagnose.txt onto a floppy, take it over to the computer you are surfing to here with, open diagnose.txt in Notepad, highlight all its text, and paste it into the reply window.
If putting more RAM in is not an option, and if a Linux swap partition cannot be created for one reason or another, then we must talk pelokwin step-by-step through the process of installing grub.exe and Puppy 2 alpha, which has a RAM requirement (if I read the news announcement correctly) of only 32MB.
I want the answers to the above 7 questions before I general this beach-assault.
Last edited by Sit Heel Speak on Mon 17 Apr 2006, 19:00, edited 3 times in total.
I did'nt read the whole thread, so sorry if it was already mentioned.
You can use a swapfile instead of a swappartition, so P. can keep Win98.
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/SwapFile
Mark
You can use a swapfile instead of a swappartition, so P. can keep Win98.
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/SwapFile
Mark
-
Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
MU:
It is my understanding that Puppy the first time it is started on a system will automatically find and use a swap _partition_ if present, but not a swap _file_. Since we are going to attempt to load Puppy on a computer with only 79MB of RAM, I figured that it would be necessary to pre-load pelokwin's computer with a swap _partition_ before attempting the first boot. Am I mistaken, i.e. will just putting a swap _file_ on it work?
It is my understanding that Puppy the first time it is started on a system will automatically find and use a swap _partition_ if present, but not a swap _file_. Since we are going to attempt to load Puppy on a computer with only 79MB of RAM, I figured that it would be necessary to pre-load pelokwin's computer with a swap _partition_ before attempting the first boot. Am I mistaken, i.e. will just putting a swap _file_ on it work?
It says on http://puppylinux.org/wikka/SwapFileSit Heel Speak wrote:MU:
It is my understanding that Puppy the first time it is started on a system will automatically find and use a swap _partition_ if present, but not a swap _file_.
This is followed by instruction on how to get Puppy to recognize the swap partition. This won't work for me because I can't get Puppy to boot from the CD. Are there startup parameters that can be used with Grub or at boottime to make Puppy recognize a Swap partition?Got a swap partition? ... That won't be enough.
You need to use mkswap before Puppy Linux can automatically recognize it at boot time.
BTW, I created the swap and other partitions using an old version of Mandrake. It lets you split up a Dos partition into several Dos/Linux partitions non-destructively. If you merge or enlarge a partition though it gets wiped.
-
Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
ckx:
It is my understanding that what mkswap does is "format" the blank new Linux partition, sort of, in other words it puts the special ext2 swap filesystem on the type-82 partition. mkswap needs to be run only once.
I am perfectly well aware that there exist powerful partitioning tools. My own choice would be the vintage-1999 commercial utility System Commander, which can shrink the existing partition and create the new partition without losing the presently-existing installation of Windows 95. But pelokwin does not have such tools. So let's do it with just what MS-DOS and a simple Linux boot floppy provide. Unfortunately, the necessary fdisk steps will wipe out everything on the disk, which is why pelokwin needs to back everything up that's important to him first.
Pelokwin, my strategy is this:
1. Boot the to-be-Puppy'ed computer from a Win9x emergency boot floppy.
2. Issue the command
A:> fdisk
Answer "Y" to the "enable large disk support" question. This tells MS-DOS that the partition we will presently create is to be a vfat (FAT32) one.
Delete the existing partition.
Create one new partition, size 2.75GB.
Set it active.
Exit fdisk.
3. Reboot from the Win9x floppy so the above fdisk step takes effect.
4. Issue the command
A:> fdisk
This time, answer the "enable large disk support" question "N" (no), so that the next partition you create will be (temporarily) of type msdos (FAT16).
Create new partition.
Let it use all the remaining disk space.
Exit fdisk.
5. Reboot from the Win9x floppy so the above fdisk step takes effect.
6. Issue the command
A:> format C: /s
to format the new larger first partition, leaving room for system files.
7. Issue the command
A:> sys
to transfer the system files from the Win9x emergency boot floppy onto the hard disk's new first partition.
8. Issue the command
A:> format D:
to temporarily format the 2nd partition FAT16. This is done just in case subsequent strategy fails.
9. Turn the computer off, boot from the Linux floppy, and issue the commands:
# fdisk /dev/hda (start Linux fdisk on hard disk 1)
t (change type of partition)
2 (which partition to change)
82 (change it to type 82, a Linux swap partition)
w (write the above information to the partition table)
10. Take the Linux floppy out of the drive and shut the computer off.
11. Reboot again from the Linux floppy.
12. Issue the command
# mkswap /dev/hda2
13. Take the Linux floppy out of the drive and shut the computer off.
14. Boot from the LiveCD.
This should get Puppy going on pelokwin's computer. Yours too, ckx, provided that the CD can autoboot (I don't use a CD, so I don't know). If the LiveCD can't autoboot, then pelokwin (and you, ckx) will need to reinstall Windows on the first partition (i.e. on the C: drive) and then boot the LiveCD from Windows Explorer, or else just go get pupwin98.zip and use that.
Can anyone see a fault in this strategy?
Pelokwin, assuming that you don't care about what's presently on the computer, do you think you can follow the above steps?
It is my understanding that what mkswap does is "format" the blank new Linux partition, sort of, in other words it puts the special ext2 swap filesystem on the type-82 partition. mkswap needs to be run only once.
I am perfectly well aware that there exist powerful partitioning tools. My own choice would be the vintage-1999 commercial utility System Commander, which can shrink the existing partition and create the new partition without losing the presently-existing installation of Windows 95. But pelokwin does not have such tools. So let's do it with just what MS-DOS and a simple Linux boot floppy provide. Unfortunately, the necessary fdisk steps will wipe out everything on the disk, which is why pelokwin needs to back everything up that's important to him first.
Pelokwin, my strategy is this:
1. Boot the to-be-Puppy'ed computer from a Win9x emergency boot floppy.
2. Issue the command
A:> fdisk
Answer "Y" to the "enable large disk support" question. This tells MS-DOS that the partition we will presently create is to be a vfat (FAT32) one.
Delete the existing partition.
Create one new partition, size 2.75GB.
Set it active.
Exit fdisk.
3. Reboot from the Win9x floppy so the above fdisk step takes effect.
4. Issue the command
A:> fdisk
This time, answer the "enable large disk support" question "N" (no), so that the next partition you create will be (temporarily) of type msdos (FAT16).
Create new partition.
Let it use all the remaining disk space.
Exit fdisk.
5. Reboot from the Win9x floppy so the above fdisk step takes effect.
6. Issue the command
A:> format C: /s
to format the new larger first partition, leaving room for system files.
7. Issue the command
A:> sys
to transfer the system files from the Win9x emergency boot floppy onto the hard disk's new first partition.
8. Issue the command
A:> format D:
to temporarily format the 2nd partition FAT16. This is done just in case subsequent strategy fails.
9. Turn the computer off, boot from the Linux floppy, and issue the commands:
# fdisk /dev/hda (start Linux fdisk on hard disk 1)
t (change type of partition)
2 (which partition to change)
82 (change it to type 82, a Linux swap partition)
w (write the above information to the partition table)
10. Take the Linux floppy out of the drive and shut the computer off.
11. Reboot again from the Linux floppy.
12. Issue the command
# mkswap /dev/hda2
13. Take the Linux floppy out of the drive and shut the computer off.
14. Boot from the LiveCD.
This should get Puppy going on pelokwin's computer. Yours too, ckx, provided that the CD can autoboot (I don't use a CD, so I don't know). If the LiveCD can't autoboot, then pelokwin (and you, ckx) will need to reinstall Windows on the first partition (i.e. on the C: drive) and then boot the LiveCD from Windows Explorer, or else just go get pupwin98.zip and use that.
Can anyone see a fault in this strategy?
Pelokwin, assuming that you don't care about what's presently on the computer, do you think you can follow the above steps?
Last edited by Sit Heel Speak on Mon 17 Apr 2006, 19:03, edited 1 time in total.
I always wondered about that 128MB number. Earlier in this thread, I posted the following:Guys...we've been missing the obvious.
Right on the front page, www.puppyos.com, the developer of Puppy, Professor Barry Kauler (BarryK) says, "...the PC must have either 128MB RAM or failing that a swap partition."
pelokwin has only 79MB of RAM, and (presumably) no Linux swap partition.
So, either pelokwin must install more RAM in the laptop, or else we must somehow devise a way to create a Linux swap partition on the hard disk.
My 310ED has no Linux swap partition and in fact only one hard drive partition which houses Windows 98 SE and Puppy Linux. I had no problem booting from the Live CD and also with my make-shift dual-boot off the hard drive with only 64MB EDO RAM installed. I did convert my FAT 16 drive to FAT 32 when I changed from Windows 95 to Windows 98 SE earlier this year but nothing more invasive to the drive. I would be interested to see if a Linux swap partition helps pelokwin when the step was unnecessary on my Thinkpad 310ED.Just a follow-up to my earlier post, Puppy Linux 1.0.8r1 works fine on my Thinkpad 310ED with only 64MB EDO RAM. I tried it tonight and got no errors whatsoever, nor did it run any faster or slower than it does with 128MB of EDO RAM. I tried it both using the Live CD I burned from a downloaded iso file and also with the fake dual-boot setup I have on my hard drive.
Sorry for the double post but I forgot to address pelokwin's last post:
As far as your boot-up with the CD, much of that sounds the same as my boot-up when I use the Live CD. I always get the "cannot find a suitable partition for your personal data file" error when I use the Live CD because I do not have a re-writable CD drive that allows Linux to put the "pup001" file on the CD it is booting from. The USB error could be a failure of Linux to recognize your USB setup so that does not concern me too much (I get similar errors with my PCMCIA cards). The part about the "ramdisk to small no place for usr.crm.fs to mount" is interesting though. While my 310ED boots fine with 64MB of EDO RAM, perhaps your computer's odd 79MB of RAM is not as accepting to Puppy? It is also odd that your Puppy Live CD nonetheless continues to go all the way through past the XVESA/XORG selection screen before the computer "just stops." Does the computer lock up, crash into chaos or just turn off at that point?
pelokwin, the part about the case-sensitive letters means your GRUB line just is not typed out in the correct format and syntax. I had this problem when I was setting mine up. It was simply a matter of playing around with changing the way you have it typed (capitilzation of folder names, capitilization of file names, spacing, number of hyphens, etc.) until it works. Can you cut and paste your GRUB line here EXACTLY as you have it typed out (with particular attention to spacing, capitalization, hyphens, etc.)?I am still getting that d%mm msg about the "case sensative letters" so next I try to boot from CD and this is what I get
Error:PCI UHCI/OHCI/EHCI USB host controller not found
ASPIDISK.SYS IS NOT INSTALLED IT THEN LETS ME GO ON I then go through the regular stuff till Puppy cannot find a suitable partition for your personal data file if you wantto use a USB drive for this type type sda1 then enter else just press to run puppy totally in ramdisk in the latter case no personal will be saved the USB flash or hard drive must have a MSDOS or VFAT partition to make the USB drive the defult choice you need to remaster isolinux.cfg with PHOME=sda1
The next "bad news" msg. is ramdisk to small no place for usr.crm.fs to mount There is more stuff but it runs through too fast. now after all that puppy asks me what kind of mouse, keybord and screen I have it is the screen part that my life w/ puppy ends puppy asks me to choose a X server to run puppy graphics mode the two choises are XVESA or XORG and no matter what I pick after the wizards are done the comp. just stops
this is the specs for my 380ed Think Pad
As far as your boot-up with the CD, much of that sounds the same as my boot-up when I use the Live CD. I always get the "cannot find a suitable partition for your personal data file" error when I use the Live CD because I do not have a re-writable CD drive that allows Linux to put the "pup001" file on the CD it is booting from. The USB error could be a failure of Linux to recognize your USB setup so that does not concern me too much (I get similar errors with my PCMCIA cards). The part about the "ramdisk to small no place for usr.crm.fs to mount" is interesting though. While my 310ED boots fine with 64MB of EDO RAM, perhaps your computer's odd 79MB of RAM is not as accepting to Puppy? It is also odd that your Puppy Live CD nonetheless continues to go all the way through past the XVESA/XORG selection screen before the computer "just stops." Does the computer lock up, crash into chaos or just turn off at that point?