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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Dpup Exprimo 5.X.15
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pemasu


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5485
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug 2011, 17:21    Post subject:  

Just found this post by James C. I searched from the net the whole post.

Quote:
Linus torvalds about PAE
Posted on May 24, 2011

PAE really really sucks.

The biggest single reason to go 64-bit is exactly because of physical address space. Your virtual address space needs to bea multiple of the physical one: when you hit 1GB of RAM, 32-bit virtual memory is no longer acceptable. You literally do need more virtual memory than physical.

PAE turned that very simple fact on its head, and screwed things up royally. Whoever came up with the idea was totally incompetent, and had forgotten all the DOS HIGHMEM pains. There’s a damn good reason why we left the 286 behind, and started using 386′s, instead of having HIGHMEM crap with windows into a bigger physical space.

Repeat after me:

virtual space needs to be bigger than physical space. Not “as big”. Not “smaller”. It needs to be bigger, by a factor of at least two, and that’s quite frankly pushing it, and you’re much better off having a factor of ten or more.

Anybody who doesn’t get that is a moron. End of discussion.

Reasons for why you need a bigger virtual space:

- you need to map that physical memory somehow, and no, tiny windows into the physical memory simply do not cut it! If you cannot have normal pointers to the physical space, it immediately means that you need to jump through serious hoops to get there.

- you additionally need to be able to remap things in alternate ways (ie user space) or make space for non-memory issues (virtual page tables, IO, you name it)

Ergo, a factor-of-two is a requirement. PAE was a total and utter disaster.

Yes, Linux supported it, and probably did so better than anybody else. But “better than anybody else” still wasn’t very good. Because you couldn’t use normal pointers to point to arbitrary physical memory, all the memory that couldn’t be accessed directly (ie anythign that didn’t fit in the virtual address map, which also had the user space memory in it) was basically limited to “special uses only”.

So you could allocate user pages in it, but you had huge problems with things like internal kernel data structures, which can be the bulk of your memory needs under some (not that unusual) loads. Directory caches, inodes, etc couldn’t use it, and in general it meant that under Linux, if you had more than 4GB of physical memory, you generally ran into problems (since only 25% of memory was available for normal kernel stuff – the rest had to be addressed through small holes in the tiny virtual address space).

I’m not at all surprised that Windows didn’t push PAE either. It was a total braindamage. I bet they supported it in the server offerings just because they had to, and I bet they did a much worse job of it than Linux did, and the reason you can do that with servers is that the loads are much easier, and you can expect maintainers to set magic config entries to tweak it to make it appear to work well for any particular load, when in reality it is fragile as hell and works only with duct-tape and prayers.

That kind of “duct-tape and prayers and lots of specialized knowledge about the load” is simply not possible in a desktop environment. Yeah, users have prayers, but they lack the duct-tape and the knowledge to work around the problems.

And dammit, in this age and date when almost everybody has a gigabyte of RAM in any new machine, anybody who still thinks that “not that many people need 64-bits” is simply not aware of what he’s speaking of.

Go back and play with HIGHMEM.SYS on a 286, and stop blathering crap. When you’ve spent the last ten years of your life working with HIGHMEM.SYS, then you can come back and tell me that we still don’t need 64 bits. Until that is the case, anybody who still doesn’t get why 64 bits is a requirement should just shut up rather than make a total fool of himself.

So repeat after me: PAE didn’t ever really fix anything. It was a mistake. It was just a total failure, and the result of hw engineers not understanding software.

So no, PAE does not mean that you can use more than 4GB of RAM. Even before PAE, the practical limit was around 1GB, and PAE didn’t move that post a fraction of an inch!

Linus
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Jim1911

Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 2460
Location: Texas, USA

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug 2011, 18:12    Post subject:  

Hope this means that you are going to start experimenting with 64 bit kernel.
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 6734
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug 2011, 18:24    Post subject:  

A little behind schedule but Dpup Exprimo 5.x.3 live pfix=ram on the main Linux box. Nice tweaks on Enlightemment. Smile
Everything working fine on initial boot.

# report-video
Dpup Exprimo, version 5.X.3 on Wed 17 Aug 2011

Chip description:
0.0 VGA compatible controller
nVidia Corporation NV18 [GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8x] (rev c1)
oem: NVidia
product: NV18 () Board Chip Rev A2

X Server: Xorg
Driver used: nv

X.Org version: 1.7.7
dimensions: 1440x900 pixels (411x263 millimeters)
depth of root window: 24 planes

...the above also recorded in /tmp/root/ as report-video,
and archived with xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log as report-video-full.gz

I'll do a couple of installs a little later......... time for some food. Laughing
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jim3630


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 792
Location: Northern Nevada

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug 2011, 19:04    Post subject:  

flsynclient works! thanks for getting one can turn off as it makes a difference with a disability being able to turn that damn thing off and not loose data over and over. to turn it off it is more than a convenience of having it on for quick desktop maneuvering. anyway, I only use puppies now where it works and glad your's is one of them.

like the new desktop and will test over next few days.

pfix=ram manual frugal install to ext4. built-in broadcom wl.ko driver works flawlessly with frisbee.

-Computer-
Processor : 2x Intel(R) Pentium(R) CPU P6100 @ 2.00GHz
Memory : 2519MB (213MB used)
Operating System : Unknown distribution
User Name : root (root)
Date/Time : Wed 17 Aug 2011 04:22:40 PM GMT+8
-Display-
Resolution : 1024x768 pixels
OpenGL Renderer : Unknown
X11 Vendor : The X.Org Foundation
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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11775
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug 2011, 19:23    Post subject:  

Installed 5.X.3 FRUGAL Lin'N'Win
Activated my application environment.
Aps did work.

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jim3630


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 792
Location: Northern Nevada

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug 2011, 19:25    Post subject:  

ppm after updating it returned to beginning like an endless loop back to the first repro to download list again.
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don570


Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 5353
Location: Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug 2011, 19:40    Post subject: changes requested for exprimo  

Here are some notes to pemasu

I just downloaded your latest but not tested.

1)The clock's time was off by 4 hours,
but I ran the wizardwizard and was able to
get it right by choosing 'Software adjustment'

2) Line 260 of pclock 3.5
The audio player 'parole' should be changed to
defaultaudioplayer

3) pschedule needs to be installed for pclock to
work correctly

4) line 68 of pclock 3.5

export FONTSIZE=39
can be changed to
Code:
export FONTSIZE=54


results in a minor change in appearance of pclock

5) Install lame libraries for Baconrecorder
to record in MP3 format

6) In baconrecorder script where it says
to launch 'retrovol' ---> change this to launch
'defaultaudiomixer' instead

7) A neat feature is converting a wav to mp3
with a right click as explained here
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?search_id=216625210&t=70759

8 ) Make sure that you have the 'right' version of
zathura installed. To check ---> Measure the
width of the zathura window. If it's 1024 pixels
then I compiled it and it's version .4.
If it's around 800 pixels wide then iguleder compiled it
and it's version .3


Maybe a better name than Exprimo is 'Squeeze Deluxe'

Iguleder can continue to make barebones Squeeze versions.



___________________________________________
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pemasu


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5485
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug 2011, 01:07    Post subject:  

Thank you all of your feedback.
Don570. Thank you that you spent time with Exprimo. I will include those missing stuff and make the adjustment to the scripts. About Zathura. I wasnt sure if your squeeze right click include Zathura binary and I forgot to check it. I also forgot to add your Zathura gui. I will make an checked package of those. Right click extras with working combination is my next target.
I had difficulties with woof and pet_packages-common repo with this woof and resolving them took my time.

Jim3630. Nice report. I have updated synclient from debian wheezy. It works better than squeeze original.

I will stay with this woof probably for next version, cause it about works now.

About the name. I got request from Iguleder to change my experimental build name and I brainstormed this one while in day work. I somewhat need to use latin in my work so latin word was the solution. Let it be the name for these experimental builds. Lets see what happens next.

About 64-bit builds. I would say that if Iguleder makes the core for it, I will start add my stuff and start to experiment with 64-bit core immediately. Lets see. These are interesting times.....
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 6734
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug 2011, 01:15    Post subject:  

Went ahead and did a manual frugal install...... looks good.

-Computer-
Processor : AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2400+
Memory : 1033MB (147MB used)
Operating System : Unknown distribution
User Name : root (root)
Date/Time : Thu 18 Aug 2011 12:30:33 AM CDT
-Display-
Resolution : 1440x900 pixels
OpenGL Renderer : Unknown
X11 Vendor : The X.Org Foundation
-Multimedia-
Audio Adapter : VIA8233 - VIA 8235


-Version-
Kernel : Linux 2.6.39 (i686)
Compiled : #1 SMP Fri Jul 15 19:38:53 GMT-8 2011
C Library : GNU C Library version 2.11.2 (stable)
Default C Compiler : Unknown
Distribution : Unknown distribution
-Current Session-
Computer Name : puppypc22119
User Name : root (root)
Home Directory : /root
Desktop Environment : Unknown (Window Manager: Enlightenment)
-Misc-
Uptime : 1 hour, 46 minutes
Load Average : 0.71, 0.35, 0.16
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 2031
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug 2011, 01:31    Post subject:  

I want to write a new version of my package builder this weekend, to simplify things a bit. The goal is to make it more portable.

Once it's ready, maybe I'll make a 64-bit chroot environment from Debian Squeeze and rebuild the 2.6.39.4 kernel.

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pemasu


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5485
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug 2011, 01:32    Post subject:  

Fixing the right click pet installed stuff.
I think that I create exprimo-update-0.0.1.pet and test stu90`s update manager for installing the update package.
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 6730
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug 2011, 03:46    Post subject: To the purchasing community-Very good article from Tovalds.  

pemasu wrote:
Just found this post by James C. I searched from the net the whole post.

Quote:
Linus torvalds about PAE ... .

This is a very good article posted by James C. and Pemasu.

Many will not be clear on understanding the vein in which he wrote this.

Linux is making the point about 64bit OS operations and shutting down all of those Linux users who insist upon trying to suggest that 32bit Linux runs just as well or better in 32bit mode on 64bit processors. They have for years been trying to make the case for extending 32bit OS operations.

I have long been a proponent for 64bit OS on 64bit hardware. In fact, excepting for the testing that has been done using some of the Puppy versions, I haven't ever endorsed any customer installation or any user purchase of 32bit OS on 64bit machines....NEVER!

There are so many reasons why NO ONE SHOULD install/purchase a production Operating System (OS) that comes 32bit. (Unless, of course, the machine itself is not a 64bit PC).

Otherwise, if you are stuck with 32bit hardware, and you have Puppy PAE running on that 32bit hardware, you will take advantage of all of the memory that one can stuff in that 32bit system without fail. The is true in Linux even more than in Microsoft 32bit. The Puppy advantage is how it maps remaining memory for use as part of its filesystem making the system behave like a great big ole fast hard drive (HDD). PAE mapping does work, just nowhere near as effective as when the systems run in 64bit mode.

FATDOG and the up and coming LightHouse are the 2 64bit Puppy distros which run faster (a personal observation) than the 32bit implementations do. (There are several reasons for this, not mention that all of my 64bit PCs have bigger faster processors than my 32bit PCs have).

Again, if you have 64bit PCs, DO NOT BOTHER WITH 32BIT OSes is the message to all of the naysayers.

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pemasu


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5485
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug 2011, 04:11    Post subject:  

Compiling new kernel, making pet of it, creating kernel source sfs takes precious time. The time should be focused to things which work just fine.
I think that I concentrate on non PAE kernels using mine or Iguleder version or checking Iguleder kernel and maybe modifying something if needed and not using time with PAE kernel.
64 bit is the way to go in the future for memory and speed improvements.
Should I say: End of discussion, lol.

PS. I have nothing personally against PAE kernels. There are still several builds floating around with them and I still might update the base distros of them. I just wont use PAE kernel in the future or make double announcements with and without PAE support. But life goes on......

Last edited by pemasu on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 15:14; edited 2 times in total
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stu90


Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Posts: 1399
Location: England. Dell Inspiron 1501. Dpup

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug 2011, 07:28    Post subject:  

pemasu wrote:
Fixing the right click pet installed stuff.
I think that I create exprimo-update-0.0.1.pet and test stu90`s update manager for installing the update package.


Hi Pemasu,
Not sure if i posted this one already but here is where i got to with the dpup-updater.
I added comments so should be easy enough to customize for Exprimo Cool
dpup-update.gz
Description  remove fake .gz and make executable
gz

 Download 
Filename  dpup-update.gz 
Filesize  3.24 KB 
Downloaded  207 Time(s) 
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pemasu


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5485
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu 18 Aug 2011, 08:01    Post subject:  

Thanks stu90. I start this evening to work with right click update and get it right. You can post found duplicates, missing right clicks, wrong right clicks found....
I start with don570 posted fixes. At least Deadbeef has duplicate right click.
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