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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11782
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 17:39    Post_subject:  

During all the years I follow this product, I have made remarks as you did, shariebeth. And I wasn't alone.

I sincerely hope you (well the PLUG group) will be able to streamline and bring the structure you (the PLUG group) have in mind and be successful.

This will be a huge task.

Quite some people like the anarchistic way of doing like it is here.

Another factor to succeed will be the cooperation of developer.
I appreciate the developers here, but I also it is my experience they code for themselves and for the pleasure of it. Some say even that they don't care about opinions and that one can take their product or leave it.

So one goal is to communicate to pass the info from users to developers.
But if one side isn't listening how can you communicate?

Maybe in a first stage a goal should be to bring structure in the information.

If at a later stage you try to do the communication with developers and only a part of them will communicate it could be that the other part might turn against you ( the group).

This could create a war and this will not be of benefit for puppy.
I hope you (the group) have thoroughly thought about that.
Do you (the group) would like to have that on your conscience?

So I would say good luck for the informative/streamlining part.

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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 948

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 17:51    Post_subject:  

Shariebeth, thanks for your reply.
With all due respect, I find it difficult to agree with you.

shariebeth wrote:

Maybe I didn't present it as clearly as I thought I had.
PLUG isn't about structuring how people collaborate or stifling creativity.
It's simply about making sense of what we already have for everyone else to find and follow along.

What you are saying here is that 1. People can no longer make sense of what the puppy forum is about? 2. PLUG is not about structuring how people collaborate.

Puppy Linux is now a top-ten distro and it has achieved this position because of inherent quality, not clever strategies and organization..In recent times the forum visitors have about doubled and apart from some sad threads, the forum has never ben been more alive and more useful than today. I really don't understand the need to add structures. Put simply, a bit more heart and less ego in the existing communications would solve everything. Do you really think a selected circle of enlightened moderators would be able to present the Puppy community in a better way to the Devs than the existng forum does? How would these enlightened mods decide what to present to the Devs as "the people's voice"? How to be certain some of them don't have their own agenda, wanting to promote, say, their pet Puppy 4.xx version?



Quote:
It's finding those good ideas and putting them somewhere so they can be heard. Many good ideas have been smothered because of noise.

I don't agree. While the noise you speak about is fatiguing, it has never succeeded in drowning the good ideas.

Quote:
It's reporting back from the devs (whatever they are doing, we don't want to change that) and making sure everyone else understands the whys and wherefors.

The forum does a perfect job in "reporting back" to the Devs. They are volunteers and hobbyists who have proven to be very open to suggestions from the forum. My impression is the PLUG has the explicit goal to influence the developers as the single voice from the users and I predict this will take the fun out of what are now maybe chaotic, but always friendly communications.

Quote:
We have forums, we have a wiki, we have a well minded search, we have multiple hosting locations and stuff everywhere, and many attempts over the years to make it all easier to understand and find. How many threads complain the package manager is a mess, the wiki is not up to date, the pets and info are scattered to the four winds, and even searching in forums leads one on a merry chase from link to link to link to link.

Yes, all that is true, but the PLUG is not the correct answer. It would only add confusion, IMHO.

Quote:
Does everyone here know what all of the available puplets are? Do you all know what they all do and why one would be better for a particular user than another? Could you find them all? Could somebody offhand advise a user which ones are best for wireless, which ones are best for specific hardware? So many questions asked and a really hard time finding that information, other than whatever one is the current talk-of-the-day.


Simple question: will a PLUG solve any of this? If so, how??

Quote:
It's been stated what PLUG's goals are. I wish people would stop confusing this with the disaster puppyite created and his control issues. This is NOTHING like that.


Puppyite was but an extreme example. Yes, it has been stated what PLUG's goals are and we don't agree. Why do you or WhoDo think we would be prepared to accept this narrowing of PuppyLand? Have we elected you? Have you or Warren or anyone else the right to impose a structure on top of a free communication channel?

I am not willing to start a fight about this. If your ideas are accepted, I'll gladly move on to another part of the universe.

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Stripe

Joined: 23 Jun 2010
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Location: In a field. England

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 17:54    Post_subject:  

@beem

I agree and devs tend to work for fun on their own projects, (thats why its fun and how new ideas/features are born)

also devs are very busy people and do not have the time for another distraction

perhaps if we can just provide them with an additional resource on what the users think (rather than asking them, causing the friction) and they can read/ignore as they wish while still keeping the status quo

just thinking out loud
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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 18:08    Post_subject:  

@stripe and PLUG
I think Bert made a good point in pointing out that in spite of noise remarks from users are taken into account. I can testify this myself having made remarks which are taken into account. And have seen that remarks and suggestions of others are also taken into account.

So I am not too worried about that aspect for the moment.

I do see there is a lack of structured information.
Not only manuals, but also on the 'advice' level.

If I have to give advice to people, which I try to do as often as I am knowledgeable about the subject, I often know the issue has been handled and probably solved, but I have much difficulties to find that info.
I think there is a good challenge to provide in a structure for this.

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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 18:13    Post_subject:  

@ Béèm and Bert:
Stripe is correct as to the concept.
Developers can listen or not as they please.
Nothing will be forced upon anyone, developer or user. You can happily ignore the entire thing if you choose with no loss of status quo.

The goal is to make it easier for developers who are interested in what everyone else has to say hear it.

Those who are not, have no obligation to PLUG in any manner. However I'm hoping if this actually works out, developers would choose to participate. Only time can tell how this plays out.

Another goal is to try to organize information of every sort to assist. A huge undertaking but worth a try.

A comment from a Puppy user from a thread a couple years ago has stuck with me. When asked how new users (and this can even apply to existing users looking to change puplets) could possibly know which puplet was right for them, the response was to just start burning cd's until they find one that works for them.

If we can make things easier for all Puppy users to find what puplet works for them, to find help, and to find working pets, why the heck not?
Can anybody answer how easier access to knowledge about all things Puppy is a bad thing?

PLUG is open to everyone. It isn't just about the people who are currently in the process of trying to get this up and running. Anyone interested is part of PLUG.

PLUG is not forcing itself on anyone. If you are not interested, just ignore it.
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4775
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 18:15    Post_subject: thoughts  

There are some thoughts here that are worth quoting:
Bert wrote:
A forum where like-minded people exchange ideas is like a natural phenomenon. Ideas are proposed and if they contain value for the participants, these ideas start developing naturally, out of the enthusiasm of the members. This great forum has always worked like that.

The problem starts when someone proposes to organize it all.

Stripe wrote:
with the dynamic of the overall forum, with devs/users producing their own puplets/pets based on official puppys and the developers of the official puppys then using them in a later official version how would the plug interact with this?

shariebeth wrote:
Puppy Linux Users Group (PLUG)
Mission Statement:
Our goal is to serve as a portal for communication between Puppy Linux Users and Puppy Linux Developers. We shall endeavor to promote positive relations and mutual respect. We will represent Puppy Linux and its community to the best of our ability.
1. We will filter both suggestions and issues and streamline them into a comprehensive presentation for the developers.
2. We will relay and explain developer concerns and issues and update the users as needed.
3. We will attempt to consolidate information and documentation into one easily accessable resource.
4. We will provide support and structure for a Puppy Linux "Help Desk".

I collected these so readers can see the ideas together. Now let me add my 0.002c:

a. 1-2 above are essentially ways to keep up with the development of Puppy Linux. (This is not easy. Note also that 3 and 4 are only derived from 1 and 2.)
b. (a) can be done using more resources and control (the resource stream will only come in with more control, for example, a formal structure).
c. With more control, people leave (devs, especially).
d. With devs leaving, there will be no need for (a).

Lastly, there is such a thing as "top ten syndrome" in Puppy Linux development: people get excited whenever Puppy Linux goes up past #10 in Distrowatch.

EDIT: I composed this post before Béèm posted above, so it might be redundant in some parts.

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Stripe

Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Posts: 658
Location: In a field. England

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 18:52    Post_subject:  

raffy

as I see it, there will be no control involved at all just an organizing/listing/database of resources in one place to make life easier for all puppy users.

hope this helps
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 21:46    Post_subject: A plea for pleasant changes and exchanges  

Stripe

I think you have the essence of it

I have asked for a database many times, currently pretty much most people rely on the well-minded search, but how many use, or have read the search thread I started, which is brim full of ideas/links?, ....however I concur with Béèm, trying to find solutions to problems people are having takes ages to find sometimes, as they were often posted in an unrelated thread, or in a throwaway type comment....I, too, struggle finding things I know I've seen answers to... a database would be wonderful, in the meantime, threadget is being advised
I am going to talk with John M about the database idea, [and a few other things], as it would need to hook into his server mysql, I believe, and can you imagine how [relatively] easy an alphabetic look-up chart would be?

A forum is its users, hence to me, PLUG seemed a good idea

I have come to the conclusion there are 2 main types of people who use the forum, social, and antisocial, though most people have both qualities.
I may be wrong, but I believe the forum works better when people use their social skills, than their antisocial ones, and it is, on occasions hard not to let the fiery dragon who cares not, loose, but ask yourself, which do you prefer to be on the receiving end of?

I have seen wisdom from nooby, outshining some people who seem more capable to him, when he said,
Quote:
We love Puppy Linux so much that all of us want only the best for Puppy and we do our best to protect Puppy from things we find can be of great or minor harm.

Who wants to argue with that?
Often disagreements boil up out of defence of an aspect of puppy or the forum.....but remember, there are many lovely views of a mountain, but if you climb from the east and meet someone who climbed from the west, you will never agree which mountain you are on, unless you retread the steps of the other, which is neither easy, nor always possible [if ever you've done any climbing, you'll know what I mean]...so just a little slack, as nooby says, is required, in other words, be a bit more tolerant....

Is that dictatorial, as some say....I don't believe so, but....YMMV

One of the big difficulties with any venture like this, is finding natural categories, under which to address topics....and who would argue that the forum, is haphazard, at best, difficult, at worst, to find your way around....yet how many words have been written trying to make things clearer?

We can but try, is my view, as if not, then stagnation rules

"If things don't change, they'll stay as they are", should not be our motto

Aitch Smile
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Trobin

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 907
Location: BC Canada

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 00:07    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Does everyone here know what all of the available puplets are? Do you all know what they all do and why one would be better for a particular user than another? Could you find them all?


A data base of all the puplets, their features and uses, might be a great idea, but I think the gate may be locked long after the horse has charged over the horizon.

Puppy 1.x.x Puppy 2.x.x Puppy 3.x.x Puppy 4.xx Puppy Wary
Puppy Lucid Puppy Drake Slickpup TXZ-pup 4.5 Polarpup
Midnightsun pup Puppy rescue os Lighthouse pup Slimpup
Macpup Pupngo Muppy Webserver puppy Cloud puppy
Angrypup Edupup Teenpup Legacy OS Rexbang
Puppeee Fluppy Pulp Nop puppy Solid pup Skinnypup
Lucidlite Snowpuppy Browser Linux Barebones lucid
Puppy Arcade Ice puppy Puppy studio Turbopup Quirky nop
Kdpup Cpup pup bang Green Pup Diabolug Wolfe

There are 44 pages in the Puppy Derivatives section. I’m sure the above just scratches the surface.

That would be quite the task, building a data base of all the puppies - puplets out there. Listing all their features, suggesting which is right for each task/hardware/configuration/need/desire.

The question is, does anyone have the time / interest / and desire to take on such a task?

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 04:07    Post_subject:  

With all due respect to previous posters, the PLUG is about giving users a voice.

Sure, they now have the forum and the myriad of threads, sub-forums, etc. The problem is that even Barry doesn't have the time or the energy to search through all of that for useful ideas and still find time to code, and he's retired. Many of our devs are hobbyists with full time jobs! The PLUG is designed to sort through all of that information and put the best ideas forward in one place where developers can either pick them up and run with them or ignore them. It's just that simple.

When I was coordinating the 2.15CE project, ages ago it seems, the forum was much less populous than it is now. Puppy's popularity is choking its lines of communication between users and devs. The PLUG is one idea to deal with that by pre-sorting, quantifying and qualifying ideas so that the best and most achievable find their way to the devs. Nothing more; nothing less.

Sure there are lots of other things a PLUG could and probably should do. I wouldn't try eating the whole elephant in one sitting, though! At the moment, users post their own ideas in new threads, different forums and sub-forums, etc. The point of the PLUG is to have a single place where those ideas are welcomed, discussed reasonably and the best made available to the devs by whatever means. No more trolling through endless posts (pun intended) to find the one good idea that a dev can implement as he or she pleases. How could that impact negatively on the fun of the volunteer devs?

If we can achieve that one single objective - creating a place for users to have their ideas heard, qualified and discussed - then the other opportunities will come in the natural course of things. This is NOT about organizing Puppy - heck, I've been a pretty vociferous OPPONENT of that for a long time; just ask ecomoney! It IS about organizing users ideas, wishes, experiences and feedback in a positive way for the benefit of all who love Puppy, whether they be users, devs or a hybrid of the two like my old mate 01micko.

Are we there yet, mum? Rolling Eyes

PS. If ttuuxxx has the time and the energy, I'm sure he can manage to moderate the PLUG. The point is that it should be possible for him to have assistance with this sub-forum only, to ensure topics don't quickly degenerate into more noise. That would truly defeat the purpose of the PLUG IMHO.

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Stripe

Joined: 23 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 04:18    Post_subject:  

WhoDo with you being a coordinator can i pick your brains?

do you have any ideas on the structure it would take so that it would be more useful/different from the suggestions section? and do you have any ideas on how the ideas would be slimmed down without reflecting anybodys personal preferences?

cheers
stripe
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 04:47    Post_subject:  

As I get it John Murga the owner of the forum has appointed ttuuxxx to be the Moderator.

So has he accepted that then? Then it is already set.

So we don't need any other Mods and if ttuuxxx has to take a break can not Beem or Flash jump in to help out if the noise ratio get unbearable.

I am not good at keeping down my own noise but friendly reminders from forum members should help too.

Is it not most practical then to let ttuuxxx be the single voice? I mean he has a long experience of suggesting things and even to Dev such things himself. Him wanting apps to be as tight and effective as possible and him not liking bloat. He knows such things as I get it.

So I see him as apt for that purpose.

What I am skeptical about is how to give priority to all the individual voices we have.

Just a short example.

seaside made several variations of a SFS loader. The way he set up that app was more practical to him than all the other versions that exist.

I did find it to be most practical to me too. I use it now for loading this FireFox I write from within Smile

But his app is an "as is" thing. You get the feature with the constraint built in. It does not warn or protect from loading too many SFS and so on. It does not make Menu and so on.

So I would not see it as an app to add to the official Puppy but if other Devs help him or "borrow" the idea and work on it. As I get it the way he has done it is way easier than all the others and faster too.


so how would the PLUG react to me supporting that we have to refer to what seaside has done and get the attention of Devs that can look into his code and see where them can make it more protected without loosing too much of the fast operation and the ease one grasp how to use it?

Example two.

Beem and many many others have the knowledge how to place big apps on the HDD outside of the pupsave and that way them can have a very small pupsave.

Such knowledge could be a good thing to build into puppy as a choice that have help programs to achieve this.

I mean how would PLUG handle such a proposal from me?

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8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 3382
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 06:04    Post_subject:
Sub_title: database of Puppy derivatives
 

My two cents is maybe do a spreadsheet of puppy derivatives with features of each as a calc file that could be downloaded and viewed with calc.
It would contain the derivative name and included applications.
Of course it would have to be updated as new derivatives were released.
The only thing is that can one overwrite an attachment with an updated one in a post.
This would be like to the layout found on Distrowatch.
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
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Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 06:41    Post_subject:  

WhoDo wrote:
even Barry doesn't have the time or the energy to search through all of that for useful ideas

For years now I've been [every day?] reading all of the new threads and posts, and when I see something of particular interest I post it in my Puppy_Linux thread at the PC-Guide forums.

Unfortunately, sometimes people ask for help in that thread too. Sad
That adds "noise" to the resource.

Here is the present last page of that Puppy_Linux thread.
You might find it interesting to quickly read back through the various posts, from last to first.

FYI: That thread has presently had 46,302 views.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 06:49    Post_subject:  

Sylvander that is a very good thing you have done there and to me that works better than the more formal structured way that the PLUG enthusiasts seems to propose.

Sure some structure can be of great help but then one need to have a sense for how to implement that without disturbing the free flow of exchanges.

I am not good at expressing this but some kind of opt in instead of forcing us to opt out?

Maybe not the best metaphor but it is a known one. The road to Linux Hell is paved by Good Intended Formal Structure

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