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RetroTechGuy
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#106 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Aitch wrote:RTG

The thread to collate should be PLUG2 for now - that was its intention

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 567#542567

Hopefully it will be made a sub thread in the new PLUG Section, and re-named
It appears that the thread is currently "writable"...

When in use, this thread should probably appear as "locked" to all but the 2,3,4 "admin"-volunteers, who will maintain, edit and add to the list (and probably should have only a very few messages, just updating the info in the post/thread to show the current state). If that thread accumulates dozens or hundreds of posts and followups, it will become largely useless.

If PLUG is a subsection, that particular thread should probably be "sticky" at the top (i.e. "read here first, and see if your bug/suggestion/wish list item is already noted").

I could envision the "bug table" (not to be confused with the "Bugman table" :wink: ), having something along the lines of "new/ongoing", "in process" (of being solved), "solved" as responses to those conditions.

Also, since there are numerous versions of Puppy... How does one keep track of which version this table/list applies to? Or does it always apply to the "latest"?

There are Devs (hi ttuuxxx) still working on 2.14. I believe that some are still using 3.x, and several on 4.x, and many on 5.x, including the beta to become 6.x. A book-keeping nightmare!... :shock:
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Béèm
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charter and road-map

#107 Post by Béèm »

It is m opinion, that the first thing PLUG needs is a charter and a road-map.
This will have the advantage of gaining credit for PLUG.
Up to now, I feel there is a cacophony going into all kind of directions.
But there is no structural base.

I hope the PLUG founders will put their heads together and come soon with such a charter/road-map.

It is also my opinion, as said before, that the first goal of PLUG should be to provide the community with an easy to access streamlined information for newbees, helpers and regulars. to help them to find solutions, advice and puppy's/derivatives where to download and have descriptions.

A huge task indeed.

Info is scattered now in the forum/wikki, wikka and other sources maybe.
There should be a unique place to start off.

Once in place and maintained up to date, developers will see this and are probably more motivated to work with PLUG.

I hope to read soon charter/road-map.
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#108 Post by JohnMurga »

Aitch wrote:Once we find out from John a bit more about what forum structure we'll be able to use, I'll post an update, until them, please can people stay calm, and not expect miracles.
You can expect whatever structure you ask for, unless you ask to change the rest of the forum.

However, I need you guys to have a clear idea of what you want, and agree between yourselves before hand.

So I would expect that someone drafts a proposal, gets the other PLUG admins to agree and then we move on from there.

Cheers
John de Murga

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Aitch
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#109 Post by Aitch »

Thanks John

I'll kick it off!

SECTION HEADING: PLUG aka Puppy Linux Users Group
Suggested Location - the top of House Training, or, Top of Taking Puppy Out for a Walk - Also Suggest sticky as and where needed

Just a starter suggestion for Forum structure - see also BK's timeline....

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... id-511.htm

.....as something like that for the whole of Puppy linux development could be done, as an overview/Intro page
- "What is Puppy Linux, and where does it come from?" - with a bit of narrative - thanks Barry :wink: :D

Opening statement from WhoDo's original, aims, targets, and purpose
- or I have drafted an Impress .ODF presentation, a bit rough, but a start

PLUG Section Guidelines - expected behaviour/unacceptable posts
Yes - there need to be basic agreements as free-for-all ISN'T working!

This is NOT an exhaustive or complete list, but just a hint at the scale of task we embark on - ideal for database, though sifting and inputing data will require many users putting in time and energy!
That is one of the tasks Users can embark on :)

Sub Heading: Official Puppy/s
sub-sections for each
* Vintage - all pre 2.14 Puppy
* 2.14/2.14R/2.15CE/2.16/2.17/2.18/2.20?
* 3.00/3,01
* 4.12/4.12R/4.31/4.31R/4.6?
* 5.0-Lupu/Wary/Quirky5.1-Luci/5.2-Lucid/5.25/5.3
* 6.0?
* future

Sub Heading: Derivatives

list to be compiled...too many for me

Each puppy series section to have its own kernel version noted and Bugs/worked on+by whom/waiting to be picked up/solved/notes - a la git?

Highlights - urgent, if possible with phpBB?
- recurring theme problems, unresolved/keep recurring across versions
- Security alerts
- repeat calls for feature/driver inclusion/kernel system call change


Sub Heading Information: what and where to find it

It is hoped this section will be databased, with a simple alphabetic search/user tagged search term - whatever is possible
Items such as -
  • ISO locations/repos/deadlinks/mirrors/temporary locations
    Users Information: How To's/Basic instruction/Manuals/Videos/Users tips + tweaks/ Updates/ User+other reviews!!
    Note: Much information is only dated in the forum - dates need adding to many below categories, linked to timeline, maybe?
    Community .org website/WIKI/Webdesktop/other Puppy sites
    Which Puppy is right for me?/reason for using your PC may help you decide which Puppy to use
    Puppy's own hardware compatibility list - what works/doesn't
    Solutions: published user threads, highlighting issues with versions with specific hardware, and fixes, including unresolved - over 9000 unanswered posts, though not all require responses - when did you last help someone?
    Languages/internationalisation - are you catered for/how are we doing?
    Softwares/Which version/derivative do they run on
    SFS's and how to use them/Mounting
    Save files
    Formatting and filesystems
    Networking/connecting to a network/router/the web/other PCs
    Windows converts 1st time guides
    Dual booting with Windows
    Installs - initial setup
    Bootloaders/Grub and Grub2/LILO/Grub4dos/Wakepup/PLOP/Netboot/others
    Find those files - the Puppy/linux file structure/Rox/Midnight Commander etc - finding and using files/mouse actions for copy pasting
    Samba/Filesharing
    Cups/Printing
    Other devices
    IRC/Chat/Skype etc
    Browsers/importing and saving favourites/Flash/Java/Email/Youtube
    Bash Scripts and scripting - what it is and how to use it
    Virtualisation/Clusters
    Special purpose
    all else....questions arising
Sub-Section: Devs
Comment specifically for devs and from devs - possibly a locked thread, with permissions for devs

Sub-Section: PLUG2
User dev requests/informations/Bugs, Fixes, and Requests

Sub-Section: PUG
Puppyluvr's thread re-located, - 'for those users that don't want to feel structured'

Sub-Section: Admin feedback, where matters relating to requests for admin intervention/resultant actions can be posted - don't expect to much, but this is suggested as a move toward transparency and fairness, and for users and admins to exchange without spoiling the threads
Comment may be moved here without notice, but pointer left in thread
This is experimental!

Any additional sub-sections as required, on request to John M

Sub-Section: The vision...where to from here...Barry statement re: his future involvement/core developer group?
John Murga Statement on his support, the life expectancy of the forum/updates/fixes/database etc

Hidden Section: Moderator delete/modify/discuss threads

Suggestion: Donations buttons for Barry and John, if they are agreeable

Hopefully that should look quite tidy??

Please can we discuss sensibly, don't just tear holes in my effort, - compare with other offerings, or simply amend/modify/insert your ideas
Let me know if there are glaring omissions that will affect the structure

We need to find something that is -
A) Acceptable to our host
B) User friendly
C) Admin easy [as easy as]
D) update-able
E) Intuitively conveyable to other Admins
F) Does the job

OK, a starter - next?

Personal note: Sole comment as a result of recent events - I am sad that we seem to have lost the input, energy and enthusiasm of 2 users who worked quite hard at achieving the 1st PLUG, and who may have copped undue blame for those events - I hope for reconciliation/reconsideration
I would hope they can still come back as valued members of the team We have a huge task to do, and as of right now, there's just my bit of energy - help!

Aitch :)

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WhoDo
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#110 Post by WhoDo »

Aitch wrote:OK, a starter - next?
It's nice to see some enthusiasm, Aitch.

I have a suggestion, though. Let's not reinvent the wheel as it were. Much of what you asked for is already available in the existing wiki. If that also becomes the initial point of contact for newbies, then a host of problems are avoided.

As for categories on the forum, it might be best to organise by category first rather than Puppy/Puplet version. With so many versions of Puppy, each would need their own sub-threads for each problem category such as network drivers, video graphics, hardware issues, printing problems, etc. Instead create only those 4 or 5 main categories and have sub-categories for the main stream versions plus one for puplets. The PLUG cannot afford to take on support for every Puplet abandoned by its creator IMHO.

Just my $0.02c to keep the discussion happening. The proposed Admins need to get together with the suggestions from here and come up with a proposed structure that John can implement. Certainly we can ask for user feedback on anything we may have missed, but in the end decisions have to be made for all by the few and that is the unfortunate truth to organisation of any sort. The best we can hope for is pleasing most of the users most of the time, nothing more.

@Béèm - are you willing to join the PLUG Admin team as suggested by John? We could certainly use your connections with the Francophiles of Puppy.
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#111 Post by nooby »

Aitch this part?
I am sad that we seem to have lost the input, energy and enthusiasm of 2 users who worked quite hard at achieving the 1st PLUG, and who may have copped undue blame for those events - I hope for reconciliation/reconsideration
I would hope they can still come back as valued members of the team We have a huge task to do, and as of right now, there's just my bit of energy - help!

Aitch Smile
Is that something you can be more explicit about.

Are you talking Puppyite and Jonyo?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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#112 Post by Aitch »

No, nooby........For information only, to remove doubt, I'll pm you
.........however that was a personal comment and an aside to this thread, thanks

Aitch :)

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#113 Post by shariebeth »

I wonder if you'd be better off using an existing section and subsections to use as examples so people can see what you mean.
It sounds like Aitch is suggesting a setup like Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff) which is located under Advanced Topics, and WhoDo suggesting something more like a whole new section equivilent to Advanced Topics with subforums equal to Additional Software, Cutting Edge, Hardware, etc.

Re where to put it: Either way it's going to be a big section so keep that in mind. I think that the Beginner's Help (Start Here) is perfect as the first thing one sees, at the top. Easy to find, logical, user intuitive. So PLUG shouldn't be first under House Training in my opinion.
How about the next section after that if the setup is like Aitch suggested, and between House Training and Advanced Topics if I am correct in understanding what WhoDo meant. If I'm wrong, ignore that then ;)

WhoDo has a good point about sorting by category rather than puplet. That way we spend less time tracking all of them down and more time to working on what's most popularly used working our way down to the lesser used/abandoned ones. Although I think space still should be reserved for the lesser used/abandoned ones as information rolls in. Which it will.
That said, I do think there should be an accounting somewhere of all of the derivatives and what they offer/do/who-they-are-good-for.

As to opening statements, visions, etc...I don't know if we want so much wordy distracting stuff to bog people people down trying to find what they want. The section is already going to be very large. I think we should keep it as streamlined and clean and to the point as possible.

Anything external should have one single jumping off page and everything else gotten to from that that. Everything with easy to find "back to home page" links and the like. All roads need to lead to home.

Looks good, also feel free to use or hack to bits the mission statement I suggested.. or not.

As to a roadmap, it's hard to lay out expected results and timeframes when it is a project depending on volunteers. I think up to this point it's been laid out as best as it can be. I think it's pretty clear what the long term goals are. Short term needs a forum structure and an external structure - database, and everybody pitches in that wants to. Not like there's a shortage of stuff to be done.

My 2 cents.

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Aitch
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#114 Post by Aitch »

Sharie, thanks

Yes, you read my suggestion correctly, like Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff)

Low screen real-estate, but easy to read/find headings

My reason for suggesting puppy sub-categories by series, was because I am thinking in terms of many noob posts I've dealt with, saying how hard it was to find what they wanted/needed
That seemed intuitive, to me, and with a view to database analysis of the forum database, with tags/keywords or such like - I'm NOT looking to create loads of work for everyone...surely doomed to fail? I hope the database will provide much of the sorting/sifting into whatever categories we need info for

Maybe WhoDo's idea of sorting by category is best suited to the wiki, but, I'm not sure about how we'd use the wiki for certain aspects of this....it'd be more difficult to keep a semblance of control, surely?
The wiki struggles as it is, and is being re-vamped - again

We will need a PLUG section in the wiki, which has been requested, though format is not decided yet

For the forum, I like the idea of a single jumping off page, and home button, but don't know if phpBB does that?
Sorry, I didn't reference your mission statement :oops:

Remember this is a suggestion only, not cast in stone, and we need to reasonably quickly come to agreement, please admins!

Other suggestions/ideas welcome......but don't wait too long :wink:

Aitch :)

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#115 Post by shariebeth »

I think you're both right.
Some research by problem: "wireless", "printer", "pidgin"
Some research by puplet in various manners: "Wary" "431" "official"

Of course don't forget the requisite search option: "HELP!!1111" ;)

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#116 Post by Aitch »

Also re: placement, remember, this is intended to be a Section....not a sub-section of Beginner's Help - Start here, .......though maybe if not at the top of that area, at the foot, below Bugs - submit bugs, would work, until further changes?

It shouldn't appear big to the Forum index page, only the database, but with a view to organising and gleening hidden data presently locked up to us as users - despite well-minded's best efforts

Check the 'Jump to - select a forum', button/icon low right on any page - maybe this could be the return home linker, and be relocated?

Aitch :)

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wiki

#117 Post by raffy »

The only requirement to use the wiki is to be registered there (I handle registrations to deter spam). It is a wiki, so PLUG admins can control their pages (without first having to be wiki admin).

Has anyone not thought of googlecode? Any developer can download the latest version of "wish list".
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#118 Post by 8-bit »

raffy,
I was thinking along the same line as to googlecode.
If one navigates to http://code.google.com/p/gtkdialog/ and clicks on "issues", there is a short description of the issue and it's status.
With each one there is a link that explains the issue more fully.
That type of setup for PLUG would work great.
It, as to reading and navigating is short and well thought out.

I am using thunor's gtkdialog section on googlecode as an example, and as you stated, it would be another way to have a list that a developer could access directly.

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#119 Post by Aitch »

There are already several Puppy projects on googlecode

Technosaurus set up 4.4 development........

Grumpy wolfe has mywolfe........

Chinese Puppy project.........

another Chinese Macis............

yet another krosspup......

puppyrus.........

thunor's gtkdialog........

plus another 2 pages of results

.........but if someone wants a task, be my guest, so long as you let us know :wink:

Dingo has dokupuppylinux/dokuwiki format here, which looks good, as an example

http://www.dokupuppylinux.tk/

Aitch :)

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#120 Post by Stripe »

hi all

firstly a big thank you to john murga and raffy.

do people think we are not aiming to high in the first instance, It is an awfully big undertaking to cover all that is in aitch's ideas.

if we aim for something simple first to see how it works out, then any lessons learned can be taken forward into other areas.

puppyluvr's pug thread is already filling with peoples wish list's for puppy, so that can be used now.

what do puppy people/admins/whoever think about starting with just reporting bugs/problems just to establish that the model/structure will work, and be able to provide detailed information in an acceptable format for the devs?

in the words of aitch "whoosh"

stripe

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#121 Post by Aitch »

:lol: :lol:

stripe

my whoosh is coming to get me! :lol: :lol:

I only suggested using whoosh as an energy changer when there was a row going on....no matter, your use made me smile

Regarding aiming too high.........well, my philosophy is that if you have to make a big jump, and you aim 5 miles, but then only succeed in jumping 4 and 1/2 miles, you can feel proud of the achievement of how far you've made it
If on the other hand, you know you got a big 5 mile jump to make, and you feel somehow incapable and only aim for 800 yds, but make it, when you land you can reward yourself at having made it easy, but you may be standing in kaka, looking 4 and a half miles ahead, and see me :wink: :D
Sorry, but I guess I'm just adventurous, and lay the cards on the table
The idea was to make people aware that there's a big task ahead, but lots of us, so no-one person need carry a burden
Do what you can, when you can.....it'll get done.......after all, it's not going away

So make your jump for yourself, but don't restrain others, as we aren't tethered together, and an aim in the sense of this project can be broken down into many smaller tasks, much more in people's comfort zones and together we can do it, if we have the will

I'm simply trying to give a bit of inspiration to get it started

bugs problems solutions etc can be collected in PLUG2 for now, as said earlier

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69755

thanks

Aitch :)

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#122 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Aitch wrote:So make your jump for yourself, but don't restrain others, as we aren't tethered together, and an aim in the sense of this project can be broken down into many smaller tasks, much more in people's comfort zones and together we can do it, if we have the will

I'm simply trying to give a bit of inspiration to get it started
Beem pointed out that perhaps the first thing you want is a scoping document/charter:

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 443#543443

Perhaps get 3 or 4 of the more enthusiastic "members" (given that it isn't officially a "group" yet), and start carving out what you'd like PLUG to be.

I would nominate Aitch and PuppyLuvr as a start for some charter admins. You both have the enthusiasm, and experience with Puppy to guide the process.

It sounds as if WhoDo has volunteered as a Murga admin for the section.

I don't want any real role -- I don't really have the time to take on what I easily see this becoming. I will happily kibbutz on things, however.

I could see PLUG as playing a huge role, by simply collecting known solutions (e.g. my query about USB wireless cards). Identifying Puppy software repositories, and perhaps documenting what the software is, what it does, and which versions of Puppy it is known (or designed) to run under.

For example:

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... ges-lucid/

OK, I know what some of these are, but let's pick some at random...

What is:

Aisleriot-2.30-Lucid.pet
Banshee-2.1.0-lucid525.pet
Deadbeef-0.5.1-lucid525.pet

(actually, I know what Deadbeef is...but its name sure doesn't tell you that).

If PLUG created a software index, pointing to these repositories, it would help noobies massively, and even help more experienced users.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I could see this as a lot of book-keeping.
Book-keeping on bugs, suggestions and wish lists would help the Devs.
Book-keeping on software, and hardware solutions/choices would help the users at all levels.

And it won't happen all at once, but the framework could be set up, and for example, users could contribute their knowledge to the software index. The admins could mark these contributions as "contributed" or "confirmed", depending on their level of confidence on the contributed statement. This would spread the work around, and the key librarians would just need to monitor.
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#123 Post by ttuuxxx »

Aitch wrote::)

Sub Heading: Official Puppy/s
sub-sections for each
* Vintage - all pre 2.14 Puppy
* 2.14/2.14R/2.15CE/2.16/2.17/2.18/2.20?
* 3.00/3,01
* 4.12/4.12R/4.31/4.31R/4.6?
* 5.0-Lupu/Wary/Quirky5.1-Luci/5.2-Lucid/5.25/5.3
* 6.0?
* future

Aitch :)
lets not forget about 2.14X its kind of in a league of its own, most of the backend surpasses 4 series and yet keels the 2 series kernel/xorg/ and gcc and glibC has been updated twice now to puppy 5.0 wary standards.
Surely its not a 2 series nor is it a 5 series.
LOL ttuuxxx
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#124 Post by big_bass »

a tip

complaining about problems is useless

listing errors that were encountered is helpful (or can be if done correctly )

my point on this is all the problems or things I didn't
like about "puppy" I first investigated for a fix *yes that means do something

if a fix wasnt possible to locate I fixed it

if I was unhappy the way something was working
I took the time to make it work the way I wanted it to

if current development models werent what I wanted
I developed the way I wanted it to go

(the point here is do something to find a solution )

some may see this as rebellion

I see this as progress


the dictator model is not or should not even ever imply
being dictator over the entire open source project

PLUG should only organize information to be useful to all not control it or guide it to only one version .... that would be just another form of manipulation and control and who needs that


just do something the way you want it to be

step up to the plate and do something

if you can edit web pages edit web pages
if you can moderate the forum moderate the forum
if you can build tools build tools
if you can test test
if you can do something else not listed do it

if you can only complain don't


@Jeff a side note this post wasnt directed to you but what follows below does
lets not forget about 2.14X
lets not forget anyone ... umm... with over 400,000 views I'm sure somebody has seen it :)
Jeff just keep doing it


Joe

edited to fix formatting
Last edited by big_bass on Thu 21 Jul 2011, 15:33, edited 3 times in total.

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Aitch
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#125 Post by Aitch »

Joe

Thanks for posting, however it's a shame you don't seem to have seen or understood my suggestion, here....

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 505#543505

....else you'd have noticed I am DOing things

I DID list derivatives in a separate sub-section from 'Official Puppy', so popular derivatives like yours would be high on the list, and it is definitely NOT the intention to forget anyone, or any type of Puppy based setup - please add yours to the derivatives full list, (below)
If you're quick, you'll beat ttuuxxx, and the others

Mind you, it IS good to see someone else trying to motivate folks, even if our methods vary :wink: :D

Who exactly is complaining...?


raffy's post here, seems to have both diverted a few people away from the objective, and attracted a few moaners

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69916


I tried to gee up the nominee admins a bit, here, as John M asked for an agreed forum structure, not an alternate hosting site

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69928

amigo makes an interesting observation

But it all needs to be seen in context of the following -

Do-ocracy in action


puppyluvr has taken the initiative and set up a website for the 'Puppy Linux Documentation Project'

http://www.theplpd.webs.com/

Announced in its own forum thread, here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69979


Also, see the 'DEVs, who are you...' thread, here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70014

There are 45 DEVs listed so far, but only one joke reply :(

Also for the DEVs - Kudos

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70015

For everyone, including DEVs, Top5s

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70007

Derivatives - full list

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 733#545733

There is PLUG2 for information about fixes that anyone can add

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69755

and another puppyluvr initiative, PUG, when a certain admin was deleting threads in the original PLUG forum section set up by ttuuxxx

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=68436


RTG

If you come across those 3 or 4 more enthusiastic members who didn't leave or get given the heave-ho for upsetting forum mods or admin....please send them along....I could use the extra help

So far the position is that I have made the only suggestion for a forum structure, (see above) and asked for people to comment/modify/add to/detract from....so we can get 3 nominee admins to agree it.......yet all that's happened so far is people asking for more - from charters, road maps, to mind maps, to anything except anywhere near an agreement that John can implement, so folks can get on with it..........

Thanks for supporting myself and puppyluvr, and if you spot any other positive posts, I'll gladly add them :wink:

I'm still waiting for nominee admin comment on the proposed structure, or an alternate 'vision' for the future growth of the forum that might inspire a few people...

Just DO it! :D

Aitch :)

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