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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
package management stinks
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nitehawk


Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 540
Location: West Central Florida

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jul 2011, 16:29    Post subject:  

sc0ttman wrote:

For example, a standard Puppy 4.2 is compatible with Debian Lenny (Stable) - you can safely install nearly anything you like from there (apart from debian specific setup packages of course) and its deps, then it will almost certainly work OK

..hey,..that's interesting! I have an old Puppy 4.2 cd around here somewhere,...and an old stack of the Lenny DVDs. What about Debian Squeeze,..(probably won't work with Squeeze) (?). Guess I'll find out.
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2673
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 06 Jul 2011, 11:43    Post subject:  

nitehawk wrote:
sc0ttman wrote:

For example, a standard Puppy 4.2 is compatible with Debian Lenny (Stable) - you can safely install nearly anything you like from there (apart from debian specific setup packages of course) and its deps, then it will almost certainly work OK

..hey,..that's interesting! I have an old Puppy 4.2 cd around here somewhere,...and an old stack of the Lenny DVDs. What about Debian Squeeze,..(probably won't work with Squeeze) (?). Guess I'll find out.


I have installed a number of packages from Squeeze in both 4.3.1 and 5.20 -- note, backup your pupsave/lupusave before trying this. And use caution with large package (which are likely to have many missing dependencies).

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dru5k1


Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 09:35    Post subject:  

@SimpleWater: I hope you noticed the PPM has a big ConfigurePackageManager button that you can press to open up the 'whole' ubuntu lucid -main,universe,and multiverse- repositories???

@sickgut: I'm glad pussylinux is out, it sounds great and I'm sure to check it out!
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11131
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul 2011, 12:46    Post subject: Re: learning  

Luluc wrote:
sickgut wrote:
What Bruce said is true about the package manager, its handy as a tool to help you get to where your going but we arent tied into using it, and most experience users just grab the static install of the program they wanna use from the vendors site (skype from the skype site, assaultcube from the assultcube site etc...) install them, hunt around for a bit for a few deps, maybe remove some unneeded stuff to strip it a bit and thats it.

I've been around here for about a couple of months and gotten used to seeing several complaints being dismissed because "Puppy is supposed to be that way, limited but simple, in the name of newbie-friendliness." But now, all of a sudden, it is argued that "most Puppy users are savvy, will get by on their own and don't need no fancy-shmancy package manager."

Well, which is it? It is beginning to sound like the Puppy community will just say whatever suits their mood du jour about just leaving things the way they are.


It looks like good arguments to me.

I am not the community, rather an one user, just like anybody, except I have a lot of experience.

Around 2000 I decided to leave Windows and learn Linux. The keyword here is 'learn'.

People who don't take the time to learn are simply not going to be as capable administrators over their computers as those who learned.

Puppy is designed to be newbie friendly to be sure. Users want to add software not included with Puppy's ISO file. Puppy has a package manager as well as packages.

I don't use it and if have enhanced Puppy's software considerably without it, it can't be argued that it is needed.

In a lot of cases packages aren't needed either. A couple days ago I compiled and installed the latest version of Geany text editor and Bluefish HTML editor. No reason to package either.

If a person wants to get the best out of any operating system, he will need to learn the operating system. Learning is not as if one stops living or doesn't have a computer to work with while he learns. One learns on gradient. The more one learns, the easier things become.

~

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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5043
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat 23 Jul 2011, 23:55    Post subject:  

I didn`t read this whole thread, but I have said the same long ago.
I also suggested a simple fix that`s very advanced and has many benefits.

Make Squash files the new file package format, no installing or removal needed !!!
So there`s no tracking of files ( no mess ), and no space taken in the Save file.

You mount the file ( NOT Unioned ) and use it just that way.

This is the idea I suggested for ChoicePup, and it worked very well.
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harii4


Joined: 30 Jan 2009
Posts: 444
Location: La Porte City, IA , U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul 2011, 16:20    Post subject:  

As an puppy 3 series user I always thought:
Gslapt‎
the PSI: Puppy Software Installer 07
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=10960

where an great add-on .
Puppy's DotPup package installer vs. Add'l Software forum
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=28537&sid=ba9dcbe10fcaf3a74e6c652e7fad4d33

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SimpleWater

Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug 2011, 14:13    Post subject:  

dru5k1 wrote:
@SimpleWater: I hope you noticed the PPM has a big ConfigurePackageManager button that you can press to open up the 'whole' ubuntu lucid -main,universe,and multiverse- repositories???

@sickgut: I'm glad pussylinux is out, it sounds great and I'm sure to check it out!


Yeah, you know weird things happen when i install ubuntu packages. Some work, some crash X Confused

Bruce B wrote:
In a lot of cases packages aren't needed either. A couple days ago I compiled and installed the latest version of Geany text editor and Bluefish HTML editor. No reason to package either.


The thing is, not all the programs out there come with a uninstall script. So making pet allows you to uninstall from ppm most of the files, or sometimes none.
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Ether

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr 2014, 13:19    Post subject:  

..
I've used various Puppy versions "as-is" for the past 5 years, mostly for rescue. Most have worked flawlessly. Amazing.

Now I'm at the point where I'd like to leave Windows behind and start using Linux full time.

To do this I would need to install software apps.

I made made an appeal for help here, but after doing a lot more reading I've very reluctantly come to the conclusion that if I want hassle-free installation of software apps I am going to have to "graduate" from Puppy to a mainstream full Linux installation.

I'll bet this is what happens to a lot of new users.
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 556

PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr 2014, 14:52    Post subject:  

Ether wrote:
if I want hassle-free installation of software apps I am going to have to "graduate" from Puppy to a mainstream full Linux installation.

I'll bet this is what happens to a lot of new users

No need to "graduate".
Puppy itself has graduated/matured, so that, we don't have to:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=93225
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Ether

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr 2014, 15:17    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
Ether wrote:
if I want hassle-free installation of software apps I am going to have to "graduate" from Puppy to a mainstream full Linux installation.

I'll bet this is what happens to a lot of new users

No need to "graduate".
Puppy itself has graduated/matured, so that, we don't have to:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=93225


I read somewhere this morning on this forum (can't find it right now - should have bookmarked a link) that Debian has the largest repo but the package manager isn't as good at handling dependencies as Ubuntu. Is that false? I need hassle-free software installation; I don't mind learning Linux as I go, but I need to be learning on a system that has the apps I need to get my work done. Does this new distro have a package manager that works "out of the box" ? Eventually I hope to learn all about dependencies and configuring and even building from source, but for now I need hassle-free noob automated installation so I can get up and running on a Linux system.

Thanks.

.
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 556

PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr 2014, 16:08    Post subject:  

Ether wrote:
Does this new distro have a package manager that works "out of the box" ?

Yes, it does. It handles packages exactly the same way as Debian and Ubuntu, that is reliably and user friendly manner.
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Ether

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr 2014, 16:21    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
Ether wrote:
Does this new distro have a package manager that works "out of the box" ?

Yes, it does. It handles packages exactly the same way as Debian and Ubuntu, that is reliably and user friendly manner.

I'm a bit out of my league here, but I just read the following post located at
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/posting.php?mode=quote&p=601023 :

Quote:
sickgut
Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

Posted: Tue 31 Jan 2012, 12:45

The only reason Puppy cant run other distros packages well is because of the extremely stripped down kernel. As soon as you try to install a package that relies on stuff that should really be in a linux kernel that puppy doesnt have then it wont work.

...

The only clear answer as i have discovered is to start with a more compatible base. There is no point in trying to retro fit another OSes packages on top of Puppy.

it doesnt matter if you have fitted apt-get or synaptic or whatever to puppy, the package manager isnt the issue the issue is that the puppy base itself isnt compatible with the packages you will wish to install.


Does this new distro address that problem?

.
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Semme

Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 4136
Location: World_Hub

PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr 2014, 16:35    Post subject:  

Rescue's fine. You want the full Monty.. well, you better be willing to sink yer teeth in.

Pup's environment is outstanding. But, don't expect to tap the cli and have an extra five hundred and fifty megs worth of libs @ your fingertips. The other guys are somewhat more functional as desktops because of all those steenking libs! Pup ain't perfect, but neither are the other guys. For me, and most, it boils down to hw recognition.

As far as Very Happy deps, Deb and Ubuntu are virtually identical. While Pup lacks the internals of either, he certainly shines when it comes to placing the user in the drivers seat. Needless to say, all three communities are loaded with top-notch support.
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 556

PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr 2014, 17:21    Post subject:  

Ether,
Debian Dog is 100 % Debian under the hood. It uses the same kernel and the same package management system. Discussing theoretical issues is one thing, but you first need to touch the bare metal with your own hands. Just start using it and you'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Ether

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Wed 23 Apr 2014, 20:33    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
Ether,
Debian Dog is 100 % Debian under the hood. It uses the same kernel and the same package management system. Discussing theoretical issues is one thing, but you first need to touch the bare metal with your own hands. Just start using it and you'll be pleasantly surprised.


I'm new at this Linux stuff. At this point I don't have the discernment to tell for sure what's correct and what's not.

When I read the post quoted above by "sickgut" it seemed to make sense to me. I was just wondering if the point he was making was a valid one. And if so, was his concern addressed in this new distro.

By the way, to me "bare metal" means writing production hard-real-time code for embedded processors which are not running an OS. Something I did a lot of in an earlier epoch of my life.

I am very much interested in learning Linux, but I am not interested in drinking from a fire hose. I need a Linux installation which just runs out of the box, and has hassle-free simple noob installation of the apps I need to do my work, so I can learn Linux without a gun to my head while using the system to get my work done.

I'm asking here about Puppy because I want to make the transition from Windoze to Linux, and I have been so impressed by Puppy over the past 5 years or so that I have been using it as one tool in my toolbox. If I can get a Puppy distro that reliably supports simple installation of the apps I need, I would prefer to go that route.

I spent 5 fruitless hours yesterday trying to get an app from the Ubuntu repo to install and work on a Puppy Precise 5.7.1 installation. I came to this forum looking for friendly and helpful advice before I reluctantly declare defeat and move on.

People are different and learn in different ways. Asking questions of people who are knowledgeable and patient and eager to share what they know is what works best for me. In return I participate in other technical forums where I am the teacher instead of the noob student.

So... to any knowledgeable persons out there who are willing to engage my questions I will be indebted to you.

.
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