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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2011, 17:58    Post_subject:  

Quote:
And why support old kit?

It's a new world and happening fast....does Puppy need to support 486...586?...or move to the front and support the new processors?

No reason we can't do both but Barry has already figured out that it will take at least two Puppies--which I don't see as a problem.



.

.
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3203
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2011, 21:00    Post_subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
Yep..
Older kernels dont support new hardware..
Support for older hardware left out of newer kernels...
Catch 22... Bummer...

Ttuuxxx`s 214x series does a nice job with his stuff compiled for newer hardware on the 2.6.18 kernel...
But it is not "The best of both worlds.."

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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2011, 21:40    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Ttuuxxx`s 214x series does a nice job with his stuff compiled for newer hardware on the 2.6.18 kernel...

Yeah, I see that as *one* of the Puppy solutions. Maybe Future Puppy will be known for multiple solutions--like a litter of puppies Wink
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3203
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2011, 22:56    Post_subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
As I have stated multiple times, Puppy has to be a "Kennel"...
Just like the "Pound"...pick a breed, to fit your need, and go with it...
Maybe the "Dog Pound" metaphor will get it across... LOL...

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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 707
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun 2011, 08:24    Post_subject:  

I like the ideas here.

My summary of observation thus far, we need two (or more) flavours of Puppy, one for old and one for new hardware.

Old would have support for, obviously, older hardware, but offer the newest, best and safest software. This would probably also still work on newer hardware, but probably not as optimised.

New would have support for newer hardware with the same newest, best and safest software. Probably won't work on old hardware, but, that's not the intention.

I think it would be ideal to have, if possible, two puppies that are virtually identical, but with differing kernels to suit different hardware. Something like Jemimah did with puppeee and fluppy.

The older puppy would be similar to what we have now, or perhaps more along the lines of Wary, with an older, more stable and mature kernel with support for as much legacy stuff as possible. Maybe the extra drivers for things like dialup etc could be in a zdrv to keep it the same as the newer.

The newer puppy would have the same software but with a kernel optimised for the latest stuff. What would be a cut off point for newest? i686? Or a little older? Would it be worth jumping forth with 64bit? That leads to needing different software to utilise all 64 bits. As discussed, PAE has similar benefits, but uses 32 bit software. Not as good, but an easier solution that *should* work on just about all NEW hardware. Maybe there is a need for 3 in the kennel??

Maybe a 4th, but ARM is a big leap for a little puppy.... Do we just argue that puppies have 4 legs and no ARMs? Very Happy

I see samba get mentioned all the time, rcrsn51's samba-tng package is tiny compared to full samba at only a couple of mb, and offers almost perfect file sharing with other machines of the other OS. I think it should be included in future puppies, or at the very least, in an official repository.

There is a lot of push in other threads for slack compatibility, and it is mentioned here as well, is this the direction to go in? Does this affect the number / naming of Puppy? Do we really care about that??

My personal observation of Puppy and its binary compatibility stuff is that its a negative for Puppy as a selling point, but positive as a feature. So many times have I read reviews, and forum help requests, that state for a fact that Puppy is now an Ubuntu derivative. Now its going to be a Slack derivative too? To sell it to new users, maybe tone down the compatibility talk, and talk up the puppy talk. I'm still not 100% sure how to get this one across.

Size is always an issue with Puppy. Akash_rawal, how did you go with your size idea? Does it work? If that works when compiling, we've got 30 or 40 meg to play with, if not, we're full already..! Is 128 still the maximum goal? If we're aiming for higher hardware, can that slip upwards? if we're aiming for the same OS with different kernels, we are limited by older hardware. Are there things in puppy, that aren't used? I haven't used most of the things in the network menu for example..

Rough summary anyway. Is that about right?
Are any of the devs working on the stuff in this thread?
Is it up to that yet?
Is anyone volunteering to make a start?

I hope so, things are looking bright.
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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun 2011, 12:09    Post_subject:  

I was just thinking, wouldn't it be possible to make a 64-bit Woof-built Puppy, by just hacking on the Distro_Pet_Repos (and one or two other files) and substituting the name of the 64 bit repos for Slackware, Ubuntu, etc.? Then one would need a 64-bit kernel.
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Stripe

Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Posts: 658
Location: In a field. England

PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun 2011, 13:15    Post_subject:  

@ Playdayz

I think a woof built 64bit puppy would be possible now, the way 01micko manipulated woof to build spup from non standard woof sources seems like it would work. (to me anyway)

IMHO 64bit seems the way to go with new puppies as after visiting two of my local hardware stockists yesterday, the most basic chip they now supply from stock is a twin core 64bit amd. good ddr2 ram is getting harder too find as well.

hope this helps
Stripe
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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Thu 23 Jun 2011, 20:46    Post_subject:  

is it safe to assume, there won't be any Natty or Oneiric Puppy from you anymore?

That's safe, yes. There is lot of work going on behind the scenes--I know 01micko is working hard. There is a lot of experimentation going on, which I think is great--it says to me that Lucid 5.2.5 is solid enough that there is no race to replace it as soon as possible with just anything. Just look in Puppy Projects and Puppy Derivatives to see the experimentation. IMHO all of this experimentation is going to result in some really very cool Puppies in the next generation. I am posting in PolarPup 001 at the moment.

I thought that would fit in here. Then I thought, the haul from experiment to release is hard but the testers make it happen. Here is what I think might be 4 guidelines to making a release, just in case they might be useful to someone.

I am still editing on this--does anyone have suggestions?

1. All built-in programs work without crashing--crashing can mean data loss. I estimate this was about 50% of lucid debugging--often we had to replace programs with other versions. The programs should also work without glitches or weirdness.

2. Boot to the desktop successfully in all cases. I am not saying Lucid made it, but I think it came darn close. Also include xorgwizard for the few exceptions, or for people to make customizations to their setups. Actually I think we were pretty lucky with Xorg in Lucid, the 945G problem, and then the other 945G problem, are the big ones I remember.

3. Audio works on first boot and is persistent on subsequent boots.

4. Network is easy to setup and persistent on reboots.

5. The media player is tested with a good suite of audio and video files, to play them all.

Now that I think about it, this is all really obvious...
.

Edited_times_total
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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Thu 23 Jun 2011, 20:51    Post_subject:  

Quote:
I think a woof built 64bit puppy would be possible now, the way 01micko manipulated woof to build spup from non standard woof sources seems like it would work. (to me anyway)

IMHO 64bit seems the way to go with new puppies as after visiting two of my local hardware stockists yesterday, the most basic chip they now supply from stock is a twin core 64bit amd. good ddr2 ram is getting harder too find as well.

I still think it is possible too stripe, but kirk pointed out one obstacle to me--many of the programs included in a standard Puppy built with Woof--from the puppy repo--are 32-bit programs and would have to be replaced. Many of the Puppy programs also are scripts and those should be OK I would think. kirk is right but I am not giving up the idea yet Wink
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 01:00    Post_subject:  

Really good discussion going on here, guys! Very Happy

Older hardware 486/P1?...add a few gigabit lan cards, or one and a wifi card, and stick smoothwall 3.0 on it, and set yourself up an IPV6 ready router with firewall rules Wink

Can't stop progress when progress is like a lava flow....sit around too long, and we'll get burned!

PLUG has had a couple of postings from John M, so ideas have been posted for this thread to become a sub-section in a new PLUG Section, along with many others. puppyluvr has hinted at support, but I don't know if it's been discussed.
Maybe post in PLUG rather than mess this thread up, eh? [always liked a good self sacrifice...]
It is hoped PUG will maintain its integrity and support, and simply gain a focal point which is easier to find in the forum, yet offer a hint of what great ideas happen when fear of control is no longer a mainstay of anyone's agenda

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69437&start=90

woof woof Wink Very Happy

Aitch Smile
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