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gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4506
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 15:09    Post subject: 4 items that could help Puppy future - Item #3  

Item #3 (in my 1st addition to this thread, I mentioned 4 items)
A conscious Firststart/Utiltiy/tool/Implementation that allows the system move its pointer for specific folders from the RAM filesystem to a permanent location ("off-RAM").

Things that take up a lot of system space on Live media RAM based systems are Downloads needs and /tmp needs.

Also, maybe its time to re-visit the need for /Home folder for Puppy user needs. If this /home occurs (or something akin to it), it might be nice if it could be housed in an "off-RAM" filesystem as well.

Go Puppy...GO!

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Last edited by gcmartin on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 15:31; edited 1 time in total
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gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4506
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 15:30    Post subject: 4 items that could help Puppy future - Item #4  

Item #4
Wouldn't it be nice if we could from across your LAN, using ANY PC, sign on to your PUP and have a multimedia console connection? (This means that once I login, I can run everything, including Multimedia and hear audio and see video if necessary in the login session.)

The developer at XRDP says "Yes, this can be done". But, it would take someone "way" more knowledgible than I to work with them in bringing this to Puppyland (even though they say that are willing to work with us).

Also, it is probably not much more of a stretch to get NoMachine's (NX) technology (freeware version) into the Puppy. But, thus far, remotely accessing Puppy with Multimedia delivery has NOT been done.

If this were reviewed from the top, it could manifest itself in being able to use an existing Windows/Android/iPhone/Linux technology (like RDP client) to access and manage my running PUP system without physically being there.

GO Puppy....GO!

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5971
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 19:56    Post subject:  

One serious question about the mission for an PAE kernel in the default Puppy.

Since the default, basic download for all the other major distros (Ubuntu,Fedora, PCLOS,Mint,Mandriva,Mepis,Debian) all feature a non-PAE kernel ..........why should Puppy ignore the performance impact on older hardware and the hardware that simply will not work with PAE
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=528236#528236
for just one example?

By the way, I have installs of Ubuntu,Fedora,PCLOS,Mandriva and Mepis....after the install the user can install the PAE kernel...if the hardware supports it.

Could just do 2 separate releases I guess. Smile
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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 746
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 22:22    Post subject:  

This thread is getting derailed by PAE talk. Just to address James C's questions.

My thoughts are, PAE is a great way of utilising all the ram in a lot of modern systems, and thus is a good thing, and any performance hit (questionable) is negated by both the machine's modern speed, and Puppy's lightness.

If PAE isn't working for a machine, there should be the non-PAE version of the SAME Puppy available. I think PAE doesn't work with some atom processors, but, just about anything from the past 15 years it will work on.


Discussion is here http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=510309#510309

James C you tested jamesbond's wary with the PAE kernel. Did you use it or just test it? What did you find in terms of real world usage? I found it actually used less resources on my old celeron with 192mb ram (about 2%).

In terms of kernel choice, there should be two levels only, 32bit and 64bit. I still see 64bit as a future goal, where 32bitPAE is doable now with similar benefits. All the other distros as mentioned offer this.
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5971
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 22:42    Post subject:  

Thanks for the answer.
Guess your testing is more valid than mine so I leave this thread to the "gurus"......good luck.
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3229
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 23:08    Post subject:  

Mad New rule... Lets not direct posts at other members...
James C, You cannot go.. I will grab you with puppy`s "tractor beam".. Shocked
This thread isnt going to be like that..
Based on "Pro-action" not "Reaction"..

I have been running a 32bit PAE Kernel 2.6.38.4 Puppy for a month or two..
But on a 2ghz/2gb machine...
Gonna set up the old "Coppermine" dinosaur for testing..
600mhz/256 ram.. Been busy, what with the tornados etc...LOL..

Where were we....

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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
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PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 23:18    Post subject:  

Hmm...

I think I know how to put kernel issues to bed Wink

jrb developed a method to switch kernels from one Puppy to another.

This could be developed further.

What about the ability of Puppy to be able to switch kernels with a script? It should be fairly simple to make a script that modifies the initrd.gz and the main sfs installing a new kernel pet. Then if desired reconstruct a CD.

Kernels pets are available form ibiblio (Barry's) and I know pemasu, wuxiandri (excuse spelling please), myself and others have various kernel pets. Upgrading (or downgrading) the kernel could be as easy as it is in the big distros.. and with Iguleder developing kernel build scripts the more adventurous could compile and install their own kernel.. which has been difficult for the average user.

Does anyone think that would be a cool feature?

Last edited by 01micko on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 23:20; edited 1 time in total
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artifus


Joined: 06 Jul 2010
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 23:20    Post subject:  

yes
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 23:25    Post subject:  

Very Happy
Ummm....Duh!! Wink

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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 746
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 23:40    Post subject:  

yes x 2

01micko, if that could be easily done that'd be uber cool. Perhaps it could be extended much further tho.

Puppy's install is really quick and easy, and that's cool, but people are used to expecting a longer install process, so this idea might be something Puppy can get away with...

We have puppy at around 100ish MB, which leaves 600MB on a CD to play with. There is room then, to include lots of options in the ISO, but not in puppy.

Is it possible to, for example, have a barebones puppy on the cd, and firefox, seamonkey, chrome(ium) and opera in the iso. When the user clicks on the install button, a menu prompt comes up with options...

This will install puppy onto your system, but first lets look at some options. Which browser do you prefer?

tick the box

How much ram do you have?

128mb - 3gb tick

or

3gb plus tick

(maybe this one could be automated?)

What type of video card do you have?

ati tick
nvidia tick
intel tick

( again might be able to be automated)

... and the the live Puppy essentially does a remaster with just the options for that PC and either installs it, or even makes an ISO for burning puppy with their own options.

So the user downloads the 700mb iso, which has everything on it, range of browsers, drivers, kernel options etc and then they can essentially install their own, somewhat customised, version of puppy suited to their machine.

That'd be cool

Last edited by p310don on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 00:24; edited 1 time in total
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sun 05 Jun 2011, 23:47    Post subject:  

..and if we standardise building with a zdrv it becomes even easier..

-replace zdrv
-fix initrd
-replace vmlinuz
-overwrite modules.order and some small stuff in iso and it's nearly doable in a running puppy

.. ok I'll work toward that with hopefully a demo in next spup.

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun 2011, 03:14    Post subject:  

p310don idea makes a lot of sense. Smile

A standard Puppy 5.3
for those on dial up.
Also release a large version for customisation.
Puppys can then customise and create ISO with different options.
Many possibilities to offer for release
to kennel members on slower connection . . .

roll on Spup Alpha4 Smile

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gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4506
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun 2011, 06:45    Post subject: Shouldn't leave  

@James C, you shouldn't be leaving. All help and input is important so that the builders can get it right. Your input is important.

Please check ICE threads. for my reports which were done on 8-9 yearold PCs as well as 2-3 year old 64bit PCs. PAE performs extremely well. If you have some pre-2007 PC and are having trouble, be rest assure for all I know about the hardware engineering spec, and the Intel internal reports, PAE runs performance gains over non-PAE operations for memory frame references in the 32bit arena. This was even before 64bit PCs came onto the customer landscape.

Not to offend, but Barry builds, maintains, and provides WARY, He has directily and indirectly indicated the platforms he is serving. That is small RAM platforms. With what Bary does for Bones, Woof, Quirky, WARY and forum work, I say he has his hands full bringing those release to us

All we have to do is cover the rest of the PCs of the world thru the packaging efforts for user productiive proposes.

The OP, on this thread, asks about Puppy. This, to me, means the class of PCs that has been referenced. If we are still talking about 2007+ PCs, then I cannot see anything wrong with provisioning a PUP for that covers from 512MB all the way up to 64GB, the architecture of 32bit machines. When IBM completed version 4 of OS2, it was built (upgraded) to run on 32bit machines all the way to 64GB. Does anyone remember how old IBM's OS2 is?

We won't be hurting the community or harming the product by doing so. So far, we have seen demonstrations of upsides to this improvement for that community of systems. From my ponit of view, this could have a tremendous plus if a little iLinux distro like Puppy addresses and outflanks its competitor in both system awareness and performance...Wow!

I had mentioned before that future PAE discussion should be on that thread. Maybe if someone feels the discussion needs to be re-addressed then a thread should be opened or re-opened. As fas as I know, excepting some very small increases in kernel size, its benefits to us and to users is more than significant.

But please don't leave because we are discussing including PAE. Has anyone seen the recent industry announcements? Our PC industry is seeing tital wave growth. We are discussing a OS that is going to be riding on that tilal wave.

If anyone feels strongly, please open a thread and allow us to address concerns and ideas you may have on PAE.

I for one will not leave this discussion or thread because PAE isn't included. Our mission is to put on the table things which would make Puppy meet today's and near-future users system facilities.

Further James C; you and I are the only Live media production users in the total Puppyland. Eveyone else installs it on HDD/USBs.

Edited: ALL Hardinfo reports I have ever produced are on Live media systems with a SWAP partition on the HDD/USBs. This may be why I have not had issues with any PUPs that i run. Linux architecture suggest that I should expect greater latitude by providing SWAP. PUPs, at boot time, detects it and picks it up; same as all other distro i test. Could that be cause for some performance degradation you saw on your small RAM system.

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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11180
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun 2011, 08:18    Post subject:  

It appeared to me that James C completely misunderstood what p310don said in this post, thought he'd been dissed and left in a snit. Confused
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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Mon 06 Jun 2011, 08:37    Post subject:  

I've been reading more on kernels and stuff the evening, and doing my own thinking on what direction I would like to see puppy to go in.

I'm sticking with my suggestion of something that is user selectable from the cd / ISO.

For me, using Linux is about choice.

James C isn't here at the moment, but I have spoken to him since the earlier posts. He can correct me if I am wrong here, but his issue with PAE is that it doesn't work on ALL systems, and as such shouldn't be included in a default puppy for live cd installation. This absolutely makes sense, and I agree with him on that matter.

If 01micko can do what he says, and build on jrb's method for switching kernels, something I think also iguleder has been working on, then that could be incorporated into the installation idea I proposed. (if that idea is do-able)

To build on my idea, the base live cd would have puppy as it is now, with a standard kernel and everything that goes into making puppy. Through the installation and customisation process, the end user could select what additions they would want, including kernel features. If that is indeed do-able, there is much more scope beyond PAE which we've mentioned a bit too much already. I am definitely not an expert at anything kernel, but I believe there is specific kernel support for atom processors, low latency kernels for media production, older machines etc.

If a user can tailor their puppy to suit their usage and their machine, it could make for a more efficient, and hopefully faster and better puppy experience.
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