Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship

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puppyite · #31 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 16:57

RetroTechGuy wrote:Didn't even read this, did you?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 777#523777

I did and I addressed it here

RetroTechGuy · #32 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 17:22

puppyite wrote:
RetroTechGuy wrote:Didn't even read this, did you?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 777#523777
I did and I addressed it here

Which didn't really address this:

Bert wrote:If frustrated, power-hungry peasant individuals would be boss here, it would kill all creativity, all friendships, all excitement. It would be the shortest way to kill Puppy.

Your response simply reiterated your desire that you would like a democratic boss to control Puppy Linux. All of Bert's comments are equally valid under that context.

By all means contribute suggestions and recommendations as a community member, but stop trying to demand that someone else (i.e. the devs) do it your way. I see no good whatsoever coming from such demands...

8-bit · #33 Post by **8-bit** » Thu 19 May 2011, 17:38

Just jumping into this to give my 8 bits.
When Barry made the first puppy and users helped squish bugs, would puppy have continued if the users of it demanded that it look a certain way and have applications and utilities of their choosing.

The way I see it, the DEV are making puppy because it is fun and also a challenge.
They have ideas as to what the end result should be and build puppy accordingly.
So a user comes along and says that the release is great, but could it be made with a different word processor or browser or include a shitpot full of games or more utilities.
That same user has NEVER tried or successfully built a distro and does not want to.
They want the developer to create a custom distro just for them.
And that is where the problems start.
It is the users that want specific things in puppy and keep ragging about it till the developer gets fed up and puppy is no longer fun.
Or maybe I should say that the developer gets fed up with the rants and goes elsewhere where his work is appreciated.

puppyite · #34 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:17

8-bit,
Just to be clear, your post does not apply to me.

puppyite · #35 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:20

RetroTechGuy,
Your continued pretense of ignorance and your obfuscation of my words is clearly a troll.

RetroTechGuy · #36 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:28

puppyite wrote:RetroTechGuy,
Your continued pretense of ignorance and your obfuscation of my words is clearly a troll.

Do you mean that I implied that you said something such as:

"... decisions are made and that generally speaking decisions about Puppy Linux are not made democratically (or if they are they do not include peasants, a.k.a. average users, such as myself). ..."

I have intended no obfuscation of your words. If you meant something other than what I have read, enlighten me...

Aitch · #37 Post by **Aitch** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:36

http://www.relationships-explained.com/ ... iosis.html

Perhaps the unhealthy symbiosis relationship is not what you had in mind....but were drawn to by your ego model....?

Personally, I prefer personal feedback and encouragement

Aitch

puppyite · #38 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:36

I have made proposals, not demands. If anyone is confused on this point then they failed to grasp my intent.

puppyite · #39 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:46

I do not derive any personal benefit from what I have proposed other than that which I fully expect all users to share in.

The unhealthy element here is the corrosive environment created by some forum members.

Admittedly I have no tact or people skills. My only allies are logic and strategic thinking.

RetroTechGuy · #40 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:51

puppyite wrote:I have made proposals, not demands. If anyone is confused on this point then they failed to grasp my intent.

I'm afraid that I have read "democratically" as a demand. A democratic vote on a direction for Puppy Linux, would likewise be a "demand".

You could instead establish some polls, of the sort "what would you most like to see in the next distro" -- which gives feedback to our resident experts of what would be nice to have, but keeping in mind that they are requests, not demands.

There may very well be technical reasons for not pursuing a particular request. Or the converse may be true as well. For example, I'm not particularly happy about this request from "rcrsn51", since I regularly use .DEB packages: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 322#516322

But I do understand the reasoning behind rcrsn51's request -- and I would request that an alternate installation tool be provided, if this is disabled. Or perhaps better yet, just have the installer warn/nag the user that that they should perform a backup, before performing this sometimes risky operation. But ultimately, I will just use whatever the devs give us...

You could also have polls cover: "what is most irritating in Puppy x.xx?", "what do you feel is broken?", "prioritize the list of irritants/broken items" -- which also gives feedback to the devs.

Perhaps the hardest part about the forum is that fixes and patches often already exist, often buried in some of the threads, but finding them is quite difficult.

RetroTechGuy · #41 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:55

puppyite wrote:The unhealthy element here is the corrosive environment created by some forum members.

Admittedly I have no tact or people skills. My only allies are logic and strategic thinking.

Read your 2 statements, back to back. What you call a "corrosive environment", I assume is aimed at myself (and perhaps a few others). But are you also part of that "corrosive environment"?

I'm afraid that I have become a rather cranky old man. And as such, crankiness begets crankiness... Yes, I suspect that our crankiness is feeding upon one-another...

Caneri · #42 Post by **Caneri** » Thu 19 May 2011, 19:10

Hi RTG,

I thought that the primary cause of death of puppylinux.asia was the host killing off "stored files"...

Yup, that happened alright, but the major issue was money and the need to expand into a full fledged server situation with solid admin and security. That costs BIG bucks and it wasn't there. I truly had no place to run .ca/asia anymore without buying servers and plugging them into a data center with blocks of bandwidth and possibly re-selling....dunno, but time ran out on me and I needed to move on as well, so the new admin was vastly important.

I was following Murga's credo...."if it pays for itself then it runs"

@Thom,
I think I'll do linguine with CANNED clams in white butter/wine sauce...grrr....All My Best..Eric

technosaurus · #43 Post by **technosaurus** » Thu 19 May 2011, 19:25

Symbiotic means that devs also get something useful in return, I don't see anyone offering any kind of bounties. Until then, with no additional incentives, users must wait for the things they want/need until a dev wants/needs it too. ... what good is a barter economy if you don't use it.

RetroTechGuy · #44 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 19:31

technosaurus wrote:Symbiotic means that devs also get something useful in return, I don't see anyone offering any kind of bounties.

Thus the typical user is in a parasitic relationship with the devs...

Until then, with no additional incentives, users must wait for the things they want/need until a dev wants/needs it too. ... what good is a barter economy if you don't use it.

I have suggested a "BeerPal" app, that permits users to bribe the devs with a bounty appropriately...

puppyite · #45 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 19:43

RetroTechGuy,
When I read your posts this is what I hear: Bla Bla Bla

Regarding polls: When I need your advice I’ll ask for it.

Regarding corrosive environment: Don’t flatter yourself, I wasn’t speaking about you specifically. And don’t include me in with the corrosives.

A smiley buys you nothing.

puppyite · #46 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 19:52

technosaurus wrote:Symbiotic means that devs also get something useful in return, I don't see anyone offering any kind of bounties.

My reward for creating the Puppy Linux FAQ consists of messages of appreciation.

I bend over backwards for anyone who earnestly asks my help.

What do you want, a payday?

8-bit · #47 Post by **8-bit** » Thu 19 May 2011, 20:02

puppyite wrote:8-bit,
Just to be clear, your post does not apply to me.

I was not pointing fingers at anyone!
I also know that by you having a website that supports Puppy, you are helping out.
To give you a problem I have with helping out with donations to support the costs of maintaining sites for Puppy and also donations to BK, I do not have any type of internet money transfer.
So how do I give funds that I am reasonably sure will arrive where they are supposed to?

mickee · #48 Post by **mickee** » Thu 19 May 2011, 20:30

RetroTechGuy wrote:
technosaurus wrote:Symbiotic means that devs also get something useful in return, I don't see anyone offering any kind of bounties.
Thus the typical user is in a parasitic relationship with the devs...

This, I believe is a true statement (of most users..), as it is not a true symbiotic relationship. That is not to mean that the parasite doesn't sometimes have something to offer a dev if it provides them with an idea, or a way to improve their build and thus provide them with something (maybe just a good feeling, I dunno...)

puppyite · #49 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 20:49

8-bit wrote:
puppyite wrote:8-bit,
Just to be clear, your post does not apply to me.
I was not pointing fingers at anyone!

OK. I just wanted to make it clear that I have not approached any developers with demands.

I also know that by you having a website that supports Puppy, you are helping out.
To give you a problem I have with helping out with donations to support the costs of maintaining sites for Puppy and also donations to BK, I do not have any type of internet money transfer.
So how do I give funds that I am reasonably sure will arrive where they are supposed to?

If you have PayPal see this thread about donating to Barry.

The donate button is on the right just down from the top on this page.

I tried to putting a direct link to Barry’s donate button in this post but it times out so no joy there.

If you’re offering to donate money to me thank you very kindly however I don’t have a donate button on the Puppy Linux FAQ. If ever I do I’ll let you know.

If you can’t use PayPal I did a search for “internet money transfer

technosaurus · #50 Post by **technosaurus** » Thu 19 May 2011, 21:23

$$ would be nice but only a small part of the barter system.
Ex. If you are a retailer with a product that you want to see supported, donating one to a kernel maintainer could be a smart barter.

It doesn't even need to be a physical trade - Things like documentation, code cleanup, spelling, readability & grammar checks, translation, etc... come at the bottom of the todo list for most devs.
verification and clarification of bug reports can save lots of time
or offering to upload (or even host) large numbers of packages ... I for one had so many that I just invented a way to maintain them as a single script.
it all depends on their abilities
Basically trade work that you _can_ do for coding that you can't = win/win

for example- I would offer to port the puppy web desktop's (pupweb.org/desktop) header menu system with webapps and a better forum search and integrate the rest for use @ puppylinux.*

I considered setting up some appropriate affiliate programs in a support context,, but it is really time consuming to set up.

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Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship