Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship

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Caneri · #16 Post by **Caneri** » Thu 19 May 2011, 01:37

Y'All can speak on this topic until the world ends (May 21 or Saturday or maybe Sunday or..)

If anyone of you tall and expensive gents spent a small amount on puppylinux.ca/asia it would still be active.

You see, things cost money no matter what you think.

Eric

tlchost · #17 Post by **tlchost** » Thu 19 May 2011, 01:54

Caneri wrote: If anyone of you tall and expensive gents spent a small amount on puppylinux.ca/asia it would still be active.

You see, things cost money no matter what you think.

But you're quoting Real World Stuff...and as was posted here earlier...a Linux Distribution is NOT Real World.

Gosh...it's like the lady down the street who's loose.....use at your own risk, and don't take it to the office or your parents.

Trust you are well and the kilowatts are abundant.

Thom

Caneri · #18 Post by **Caneri** » Thu 19 May 2011, 02:12

Thom,
I'm still pissed about you having access to fresh fish,clams and the like. and soft shell crab!!!....you prick...

Wonderful to hear from you, but the solar is still TRYING to be completed. We have floods of rain here so construction is off (again)...not to mention a new Canadian gov may pull the carpet from under my feet....good grief Charlie Brown

Real world isn't most people's daily life.
Eric

PS..I have the connect permit for solar..so that's something (so I can connect to the grid).

RetroTechGuy · #19 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 03:47

puppyite wrote:
RetroTechGuy wrote: See the links in this post again: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 189#524189
That's not an infrastructure that alllows participation in a decision making process. You would have them be, as you put it "beggars".

And why should they be anything else, unless they're actually paying for the developers' time?...

I guess that I don't see what the problem is...

RetroTechGuy · #20 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 04:16

puppyite wrote:RetroTechGuy,
I am president of my homeowners association. It is an elected position for which I receive no pay or compensation of any kind. The vice president and treasurer are also unpaid, uncompensated volunteers.

All decisions are decided by a simple majority vote of the homeowners. Everyone has an equal opportunity to vote and all votes carry equal weight.

This summer some of the homeowners including the treasurer and myself will do some maintenance on our street. By your reckoning only those of us who are able to volunteer should have a vote.

So you should start a Puppy Linux Puplet project that operates the same way. No one will tell you that you cannot create a puplet, that you cannot allow all "members" of the project to vote, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

Other projects are "owned" by other developers, and they are likewise free to run their piece of the pie any way they want. I suspect that most of them are run as meritocracies -- a do-ocracy where those whose work is superior, make more decisions.

And we, as users, are free to use or not use their product, as we see fit. I still see nothing wrong with this, or the way that the various projects are run and completed.

I should also note that I am not a fan of democracy, and the evils which arise from it. We should further note that the Founders also understand the dangers of a democracy, and instead created a Constitutional Republic.

RetroTechGuy · #21 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 04:25

Q5sys wrote: If users were providing some benefit to the devs in some way... then it would be a symboitic relationship and it would be in the devs best interest to heed the wishes of those who support them.

Hence my suggestion for a "BeerPal" program...

How else can I sent a beer or twelve to our gracious benefactors?...

But it could just as easily be a "bounty" on a new app, program, or patch... If enough people add to the bounty, the problem would be resolved.

But without users benefiting devs... what you are asking the devs to do... is surrender to a few thousand back seat drivers as it were.

I don't see the devs agreeing to even a couple back-seat-drivers. I do see them quitting, if a popular vote determines what they will work on. Why would they subject themselves to such a form of slavery?...

RetroTechGuy · #22 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 04:29

Caneri wrote:Y'All can speak on this topic until the world ends (May 21 or Saturday or maybe Sunday or..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBdeCxJmcAo

If anyone of you tall and expensive gents spent a small amount on puppylinux.ca/asia it would still be active.

You see, things cost money no matter what you think.

I thought that the primary cause of death of puppylinux.asia was the host killing off "stored files"...

I still wish that we could have moved them someplace more tolerant of bulk file storage...

tlchost · #23 Post by **tlchost** » Thu 19 May 2011, 06:07

Caneri wrote:Thom,
I'm still pissed about you having access to fresh fish,clams and the like. and soft shell crab!!!....you prick...

Eat your freakin' heart out!

Wonderful to hear from you, but the solar is still TRYING to be completed. We have floods of rain here so construction is off (again)...not to mention a new Canadian gov may pull the carpet from under my feet....

Likewise...sorry about the gubmint....one must realize that in a balanced system, someone or something has to be the roadblock to progress.

Thom

nooby · #24 Post by **nooby** » Thu 19 May 2011, 07:55

RetroTechGuy wrote
quote
I don't see the devs agreeing to even a couple back-seat-drivers. I do see them quitting, if a popular vote determines what they will work on. Why would they subject themselves to such a form of slavery?...
/quote

Very true words. That is as it should be too. To pay them would kill Puppy spirit instantly. Puppy should be fun for the volunteer Dev and not a slave job for low salary forced upon them by demanding users.

WhoDo · #25 Post by **WhoDo** » Thu 19 May 2011, 09:11

puppyite wrote:I am president of my homeowners association. It is an elected position for which I receive no pay or compensation of any kind. The vice president and treasurer are also unpaid, uncompensated volunteers.

Like I said in the old thread, Deja Vu all over again! I presume this is what you're looking for?

Puppy Linux Foundation

Every couple of years this quest for "organisation" surfaces in the Puppy community. It never makes it past the gabfest stage, despite a willingness on the part of many talented individuals to play a role. Puppy simply doesn't work that way. If you "organise" FUN it ceases to exist. That is why Puppy remains a proud do-ocracy!

And to add to the links previously supplied, what about this one?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=66820

ICPUG · #26 Post by **ICPUG** » Thu 19 May 2011, 12:41

WhoDo wrote:Every couple of years this quest for "organisation" surfaces in the Puppy community. It never makes it past the gabfest stage, despite a willingness on the part of many talented individuals to play a role.

It never makes it past the gabfest stage because the Puppy developers are not willing. I reluctantly accept that situation.

WhoDo wrote:If you "organise" FUN it ceases to exist.

That's a sweeping generalisation. Holiday Camps, like Butlins in the UK, organised FUN. Some people love 'em. Some people, including me, hate 'em.

Puppy Developers are in the class of people who hate organised fun - that does not mean that fun cannot be organised - just that Puppy developers cannot be organised!

tlchost · #27 Post by **tlchost** » Thu 19 May 2011, 13:53

ICPUG wrote: - just that Puppy developers cannot be organised!

Like herding cats...if you can;t do that, you can't get them to go to the meeting.

Thom

Who has only developing pictures experience.

puppyite · #28 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 14:40

Here is a prime example of intransigence promulgated by do-ocracy.

RetroTechGuy · #29 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 15:51

ICPUG wrote:
WhoDo wrote:If you "organise" FUN it ceases to exist.
That's a sweeping generalisation. Holiday Camps, like Butlins in the UK, organised FUN. Some people love 'em. Some people, including me, hate 'em.

Puppy Developers are in the class of people who hate organised fun - that does not mean that fun cannot be organised - just that Puppy developers cannot be organised!

But, even if they're fun for the those who play and attend, they're typically not fun for the workers and the plan coordinators.

Applied to this Puppy discussion, such "planned FUN" would be fun for the users, but would not be fun for the developers... And if the devs aren't having fun, then they'll probably go fishing or sit in the back yard with a beer, instead...

RetroTechGuy · #30 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 16:36

puppyite wrote:Here is a prime example of intransigence promulgated by do-ocracy.

Didn't even read this, did you?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 777#523777

Let me echo and applaud Bert's observation.

The system is not broken, so don't try to impose your fixes on it. Start your own distro, and run it as a democracy, and leave those who want to run their projects the "old way" alone...

puppyite · #31 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 16:57

RetroTechGuy wrote:Didn't even read this, did you?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 777#523777

I did and I addressed it here

RetroTechGuy · #32 Post by **RetroTechGuy** » Thu 19 May 2011, 17:22

puppyite wrote:
RetroTechGuy wrote:Didn't even read this, did you?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 777#523777
I did and I addressed it here

Which didn't really address this:

Bert wrote:If frustrated, power-hungry peasant individuals would be boss here, it would kill all creativity, all friendships, all excitement. It would be the shortest way to kill Puppy.

Your response simply reiterated your desire that you would like a democratic boss to control Puppy Linux. All of Bert's comments are equally valid under that context.

By all means contribute suggestions and recommendations as a community member, but stop trying to demand that someone else (i.e. the devs) do it your way. I see no good whatsoever coming from such demands...

8-bit · #33 Post by **8-bit** » Thu 19 May 2011, 17:38

Just jumping into this to give my 8 bits.
When Barry made the first puppy and users helped squish bugs, would puppy have continued if the users of it demanded that it look a certain way and have applications and utilities of their choosing.

The way I see it, the DEV are making puppy because it is fun and also a challenge.
They have ideas as to what the end result should be and build puppy accordingly.
So a user comes along and says that the release is great, but could it be made with a different word processor or browser or include a shitpot full of games or more utilities.
That same user has NEVER tried or successfully built a distro and does not want to.
They want the developer to create a custom distro just for them.
And that is where the problems start.
It is the users that want specific things in puppy and keep ragging about it till the developer gets fed up and puppy is no longer fun.
Or maybe I should say that the developer gets fed up with the rants and goes elsewhere where his work is appreciated.

puppyite · #34 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:17

8-bit,
Just to be clear, your post does not apply to me.

puppyite · #35 Post by **puppyite** » Thu 19 May 2011, 18:20

RetroTechGuy,
Your continued pretense of ignorance and your obfuscation of my words is clearly a troll.

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Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship