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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship
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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 13:54    Post_subject:  Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship
Sub_title: More inclusiveness is needed.
 

Developers and average users have a mutual and equal need for each other which I think I can demonstrate.

For example: What would happen if I develop a website based solely on my own wants and needs?

What would happen if I develop it without any thought to what my visitors might want or need?

What would happen if visitors give me feedback and I ignore or fail to take their needs into account?

Who would visit such a site?

Could I reasonable expect that my website would be successful?

While my site might get some visits it will never reach it’s full potential.

If Puppy Linux is not open to the needs and input of average users it will never reach it’s full potential either. I think Puppy Linux needs a more inclusive style of organization than the current norm I.E. developers call the shots and average users make entreaties. I believe average users (those who are not developers) need a seat at the table with equal standing to influence the future of Puppy Linux. YMMV

Edit: I’m not lobbying to have a seat at the table, I’m not mainstream enough.

Update 5/20/2011:

When I made the OP for this thread I hoped that others would suggest ways as to how users might have a “seat at the table” concerning the direction of Puppy Linux. To allow for this I omitted making any concrete proposal about how to accomplish this goal. Upon further reflection and because no one has stepped up to take this challenge I have decided to suggest a method. Here is roughly what I propose:

A governing council representing both developers and users should be formed. The two groups will consist of equal but odd numbers. I.E. Three developers and three users or five developers and five users. Any issues resulting in a tie would be resolved by vote of Barry Kauler. This voting scheme should ensure that decisions represent the will of the community.

Ideally the developers would either be former or current lead developers.

Ideally the users would be average users with moderate skills who have no experience or involvement in development either of Puppy Linux or any other software.

Council members should be nominated and selected by public elections. The term of office for members should be one year.

Council members of both groups would actively seek input from their respective constituencies publicly through polls and by seeking input directly from the community.

I want to make it clear that my proposal is not for the purpose of gaining personal power. If my proposal or any other governing scheme that provides users a “seat at the table” is adopted I will not seek election during it’s inaugural year.

Also I have no idea how nominations and elections for a governing council can be accomplished. Hopefully if this goes forward someone will devise a method. Obviously this is a work in progress.

Update 5/22/11

I have requested that this thread be closed. Unfortunately this has become a referendum on my popularity and not the issues raised. I believe the premise of the OP is still valid and deserves consideration.

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mickee


Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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Location: Saskatoon SK Canada, Gateway 5300 Laptop, 600MHz Celeron, 384MB RAM, lucid puppy 5.2 (Full Install)

PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 15:18    Post_subject: Re: Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship
Sub_title: More inclusiveness is needed.
 

puppyite wrote:
Developers and average users have a mutual and equal need for each other which I think I can demonstrate.

For example: What would happen if I develop a website based solely on my own wants and needs?

What would happen if I develop it without any thought to what my visitors might want or need?

What would happen if visitors give me feedback and I ignore or fail to take their needs into account?

Who would visit such a site?

Could I reasonable expect that my website would be successful?

While my site might get some visits it will never reach it’s full potential.

If Puppy Linux is not open to the needs and input of average users it will never reach it’s full potential either. I think Puppy Linux needs a more inclusive style of organization than the current norm I.E. developers call the shots and average users make entreaties. I believe average users (those who are not developers) need a seat at the table with equal standing to influence the future of Puppy Linux. YMMV

Edit: I’m not lobbying to have a seat at the table, I’m not mainstream enough.


Perhaps. The thing as a user that I most noticed, is all the puplets. Now it really seems most are cosmetically different from others, some do include different functionality or specialty, or things removed. However, the work on the 3 main puppies, Lucid, Wary and Quirky, those are the flavours of Puppy Linux, I am mostly concerned with. I saw there is a way to communicate what we'd like to see in the main releases. Then it may or may not be up to the individual puppy makers as to what goes into their derivative. Not sure if I'm really making sense. Am having quite a bad day. Wink

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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 15:34    Post_subject:  

Mickee,
Actually what I propose is more along the lines of an infrastructure in which non-developers could participate in the decision making process.

Sorry to hear you’re having a bad day.

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2669
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 15:39    Post_subject: Re: Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship
Sub_title: More inclusiveness is needed.
 

puppyite wrote:
Developers and average users have a mutual and equal need for each other which I think I can demonstrate.

For example: What would happen if I develop a website based solely on my own wants and needs?

What would happen if I develop it without any thought to what my visitors might want or need?

What would happen if visitors give me feedback and I ignore or fail to take their needs into account?

Who would visit such a site?

Could I reasonable expect that my website would be successful?

While my site might get some visits it will never reach it’s full potential.

If Puppy Linux is not open to the needs and input of average users it will never reach it’s full potential either. I think Puppy Linux needs a more inclusive style of organization than the current norm I.E. developers call the shots and average users make entreaties. I believe average users (those who are not developers) need a seat at the table with equal standing to influence the future of Puppy Linux. YMMV

Edit: I’m not lobbying to have a seat at the table, I’m not mainstream enough.


BTW, here is a "seat at the table": http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/index.php?f=42

And several releases discussed here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/index.php?f=34, so yet another seat at the table.

Many discussions I've seen were along the lines of "Well, Windows will do this, so why can't Puppy?" -- I can understand the aggravation that the devs experience, when I read those.

Windows has lots of apps, and is big and bloated. What makes it possible for Windows to have all of those apps, is that it's big and bloated -- one size fits all, some might say (I always find it necessary to greatly customize my Windows installs, to get the functionality I want -- so one size doesn't really fit all).

Conversely, Puppy is unbelievably small and fast. While there are cases where the functionality which I had under Windows is missing, I find that the trade-off for speed and hardware-demand is well worth losing those few apps (and, indeed I have found replacement apps in Puppy for almost everything).

My suggestions for future Puppies is almost always along the lines of "more stability, better hardware detection, newbie friendly filesystem-corruption protection", etc. I don't recall ever asking for a new application to be installed in the base OS; to do so would bloat Puppy, just like Windows.

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nooby

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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 15:43    Post_subject:  

Quote:
If Puppy Linux is not open to the needs and input of average users it will never reach it’s full potential either.


But the Devs have no such goals at all. If they had they would set up such structures. As simple as that.

The users are free to make of puppy what they want out of it but then they have to learn how to do it by actually doing the Dev.

Quote:
I think Puppy Linux needs a more inclusive style of organization than the current norm I.E. developers call the shots and average users make entreaties.


The Devs would set up such structures if they saw that as a possible working model. They have tested how to do Puppy and discarded what did not work for them and put their energy into what did work. They learned from their mistakes.

If you believe in what you suggest here then go ahead and set up such structure.

Such is based on confidence in the people involved, when you have that confidence in your ability to actually do something then those will cooperate with you out of their own motivation.

Quote:

I believe average users (those who are not developers) need a seat at the table with equal standing to influence the future of Puppy Linux. YMMV


Users have the standing they live up to. I am not a master to get how "Puppy Devs work" but during these years I know them don't want to be told what to do. But if somebody show how something can be done and them like it then often it get included instantly in next version.

Skillful action speaks louder than fancy words.

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 15:46    Post_subject:  

puppyite wrote:
Mickee,
Actually what I propose is more along the lines of an infrastructure in which non-developers could participate in the decision making process.


But ultimately, the developers need to make the decision if they want to spend the time on a task or not -- do-ocracy.

And in many cases, there are good reasons not to add some program, or make some change. Often the devs know this, but may not bother to communicate with the less experienced user why it shouldn't be done that way... I really don't know how to solve that, other than the rest of us, you and I, take the time to think those requests through, and answer those sorts of questions as best we can, so the devs don't have to... Smile

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 15:53    Post_subject:  

nooby wrote:
Users have the standing they live up to. I am not a master to get how "Puppy Devs work" but during these years I know them don't want to be told what to do. But if somebody show how something can be done and them like it then often it get included instantly in next version.

Skillful action speaks louder than fancy words.


I suppose if there was a real burning desire, one could set up a bounty on various apps and tasks. A Beer-Pal system, perhaps. "I put a bounty of a 6 pack of KB Tooth on an App to do...____..." We might find lots of "volunteers" then... Laughing

(note, I'm really only half-kidding... Wink )

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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 16:11    Post_subject:  

I made a proposal but I am not the right person to make this happen (create infrastructure).

In this special case a do-ocracy is not inclusive and leaves many on the outside looking in.

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RetroTechGuy


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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 16:38    Post_subject:  

puppyite wrote:
I made a proposal but I am not the right person to make this happen (create infrastructure).

In this special case a do-ocracy is not inclusive and leaves many on the outside looking in.


Not true, anyone who is capable of "do-ing" is certainly free to "do" -- there are no gatekeepers. Note how many "puplets" exist -- no-one told these developers that they were not permitted to create those alternate versions.

Now perhaps the argument is that many are not capable of building the system from scratch (myself included), and so we will have the choice of accepting what is offered to us. There is no real solution to that issue, other than to learn how to do it ourselves. As the old saying goes, "beggars can't be choosers".

It is not "selfish" for the developers to work on what they want to work on -- I often get the impression that people think it is selfish, and that they should have a say on what is worked on... But the fact is, it is their time, and they should spend it how they wish. They _could_ have chosen to sit in the back yard and drink beer, or go fishing, or...but instead they spend time working on a wonderful OS, which they give to us at no cost.

One of the things I've observed here in the US is that the growing "grand sense of entitlement" within the population, and particularly among the younger crowd. Despite what they think, no-one owes them a living. No-one owes them a place to live. No-one owes them food on the table. No-one owes them clothing. And no-one owes them a "no cost" OS that is exactly what they want. To force another to provide those things is nothing short of slavery!

You are always free to _ask_ for something (whether it be food, a home, clothing, or an OS modification), but _demands_ are not likely to be taken as kindly...

On a related note, think about Dr. Williams' latest article: http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/williamns051811.php3

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puppyite


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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 16:46    Post_subject:  

Inclusive: Adjective, deliberately aiming to involve all types of people.

RE: My OP. A need for more inclusiveness in the decision making process for average users. Average users are those without specialist skills that would enable them to participate in developing Puppy Linux. I don't think of these people as beggars.

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RetroTechGuy


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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 16:54    Post_subject:  

puppyite wrote:
Inclusive: Adjective, deliberately aiming to involve all types of people.


Nor is it exclusive -- i.e. deliberately aiming to prevent involvement of any/all types of people.

I am aware of no rule or law that someone else's time should be "inclusive"...

But even with various clubs (i.e. "group time") -- which ones are "inclusive" by your definition?
And which clubs require that you learn, grow or otherwise contribute if you want to be part of "the club"?

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RetroTechGuy


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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 16:55    Post_subject:  

puppyite wrote:
RE: My OP. A need for more inclusiveness in the decision making process for average users. Average users are those without specialist skills that would enable them to participate in developing Puppy Linux.


See the links in this post again: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=524189#524189

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puppyite


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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 17:03    Post_subject:  

RetroTechGuy wrote:

See the links in this post again: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=524189#524189

That's not an infrastructure that alllows participation in a decision making process. You would have them be, as you put it "beggars".

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puppyite


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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 17:23    Post_subject:  

RetroTechGuy,
I am president of my homeowners association. It is an elected position for which I receive no pay or compensation of any kind. The vice president and treasurer are also unpaid, uncompensated volunteers.

All decisions are decided by a simple majority vote of the homeowners. Everyone has an equal opportunity to vote and all votes carry equal weight.

This summer some of the homeowners including the treasurer and myself will do some maintenance on our street. By your reckoning only those of us who are able to volunteer should have a vote.

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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May 2011, 19:48    Post_subject:  

puppyite wrote:
RetroTechGuy,
I am president of my homeowners association. It is an elected position for which I receive no pay or compensation of any kind. The vice president and treasurer are also unpaid, uncompensated volunteers.

All decisions are decided by a simple majority vote of the homeowners. Everyone has an equal opportunity to vote and all votes carry equal weight.

This summer some of the homeowners including the treasurer and myself will do some maintenance on our street. By your reckoning only those of us who are able to volunteer should have a vote.


Would you stop considering a Linux Distro Development like the real world. Its not. However your HOA analogy is very apt. In a HOA EVERY member has to pay money to be a member. True some HOA's require yearly dues and others do not... however the person is still 'PAYING' (a mortagage) in order to be a member of that HOA. In a linux distro, thats not the case. The average user does nothing to help further the distro, they take the work of others and use it, never returning anything. Thats ok, thats the relationship thats set up. So to give everyone a vote in what happens will result in chaos. As Retro guy has said... it a 'do-acracy'. The title of this thread refers to a symboitic relationship. The very defination of symbosis includes equal give and take to the benefit of both.
Its a relationship between people in which each person is dependent upon and receives reinforcement from the other.
However in a linux distro thats not the case. Its a the users who take and gain from a developers work. The developers do not really benefit from users, aside from a few distros where devs do receive monetary bonuses for their work.
If users were providing some benefit to the devs in some way... then it would be a symboitic relationship and it would be in the devs best interest to heed the wishes of those who support them.
But without users benefiting devs... what you are asking the devs to do... is surrender to a few thousand back seat drivers as it were.


RetroTechGuy wrote:
One of the things I've observed here in the US is that the growing "grand sense of entitlement" within the population, and particularly among the younger crowd. Despite what they think, no-one owes them a living. No-one owes them a place to live. No-one owes them food on the table. No-one owes them clothing. And no-one owes them a "no cost" OS that is exactly what they want. To force another to provide those things is nothing short of slavery!

Amen to that! To Quote Heinlein "There's no such thing as a free lunch"

You've brought up the symbosis idea... so put your money where your mouth is... as the saying goes. What have you ever done for any of the developers of Puppy Linux? What have you done for their benefit which in anyway equates to the hours of work and effort they have put into this distro which you are benefiting from?

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