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How to partition new HD for XP and Puppy?
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mill0001

Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 373
Location: "People's Republik of Kalifornia"

PostPosted: Tue 10 May 2011, 11:17    Post subject:  

rcrsn51:
Sorry, I guess I should have told the OP to recombine the drive back to it's 120 GB and make it 1 big Primary partition and then use the scheme I suggested with the partitions as Logical partitions since you can have as many of those as you want.
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pa_mcclamrock


Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 657
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA

PostPosted: Tue 10 May 2011, 17:23    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
Quote:
My daughters complained that their Windows XP partitions were adversely affected by a frugal install of Puppy.

Give details what they did to install.
Load a boot loader?

Nope. Standard boot from CD, copy main file to HD, create save file on HD, nothing else from Puppy anywhere on HD.

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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1288
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 11 May 2011, 07:34    Post subject:  

Do this all the time with every new puppy I try so it must be something specific to their set up. I do copy the puppy sfs manually though.

If we do have a problem it would be nice to find out the cause.

In an earlier post you said:

Two of my daughters reported that XP wouldn't boot properly, on two different computers, promptly after Puppy main and save files were installed.

Can you expand on what 'wouldn't boot properly' means precisely?

How was the problem resolved, or do they still have problems?

Do they have lots of free space on the hard drive?

I am assuming the files got copied by the standard first shut down procedure of running the Puppy CD and that they didn't defrag first?
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2635
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 11 May 2011, 13:09    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
mill0001 wrote:
Now to get to the info that the OP requested:
I would go ahead and make a small ntfs partition for my XP system of say 12 GB, then a small ntfs partition for my Windows progs of oh, 20 GB. Next do a little one for puppy sfs and home files maybe 10 GB (probably ext3,) small swap partition of 512 MB, then the rest of the 76-78 GB as a Fat32 partition to share data on between Puppy and XP.

That's five primary partitions. You can only have four.


I run my XP laptop with 4 partitions:

1) A 15GB NTFS (Windows) -- separate so a Windows XP restore is just this partition.
2) A BIG NTFS file storage partition (I forget...perhaps 150GB?). Store your photos, music and junk here.
3) A 10 GB Fat32 (for Puppy 5.20 to sit...just because... -- I also have a 4.3.1 frugal also sitting on #2 NTFS, which also works just fine)
4) 1 GB swap.

Why did I put a Fat32 on? Linux sometimes has problems repairing a corrupted NTFS (well, I've actually had quite poor luck in getting an NTFS partition back to error-free, without booting to Windows and forcing a scan), but Linux seems to have good luck repairing a Fat32 (and this file system is easily accessible to XP, as well).

Puppy has no problem accessing files on partition #2.

For installing on a NTFS, one good recommendation before putting a Puppy frugal on is to defrag the drive.

Also, I have found that the Windows defragger sucks (does it really defrag, or does it perform some activity to make you think that it did?...)

The good folks at Piriform have what seems to be a decent defragger (for Windows):

http://www.piriform.com/defraggler/builds

I have used this and CCleaner to clear up some strange and insidious Windows errors (the error seemed to have been a fragmentation issue, which still existed after WinXP finished defragging... The above found further significant fragmentation and cleared it up).

I like to keep the portable versions of Defraggler and CCleaner on a flash drive for repairs.

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ubume2


Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 21
Location: Middle West, United States

PostPosted: Thu 19 May 2011, 23:54    Post subject:  

Actually, I think I see the poster's concern. I had raised the question regarding my frugal install into a partition that was occupied by a linux os.
I noticed that the linux os went through more frequent check disks at the beginning of the boot.

Personally, I would not place a frugal install inside a Windows install. Look at it cross eyed and something goes wrong.

Edit: Sorry, I misread this. I was responding to pa_mcclamrock.... not sarakay.
pa_ apparently has the capability to shrink the Windows partition and create a partition for the frugal install, and a swap partition. But the daughters might be upset by the grub menu and still blame every burp in Windows on the Puppy install? Smile

Last edited by ubume2 on Fri 20 May 2011, 08:51; edited 4 times in total
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11050
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 00:48    Post subject:  

ubume2 wrote:
Actually, I think I see the poster's concern. I had
raised the question regarding my frugal install into a partition
that was occupied by a linux os.

I noticed that the linux os went through more frequent check disks
at the beginning of the boot.

Personally, I would not place a frugal install inside a Windows
install. Look at it cross eyed and something goes wrong.


Emphasis mine.

I install Linux on linux partition types. It seems technically sound,
logical, straight forward to me. Actually very beneficial and optimal,
I wish to add.

However, Gparted, NFTS, Windows partition is the standard
recommendation on this forum. Change will not occur.

The first advice to enter was in support of, well, here are the
words, "Frugal install on the WinXP partition will do just fine"

Can you argue against that suggestion?

I could, but it would not do one bit of good. The OP took the advice
and went with it. Problem is solved.

In this particular, the drive is bare. Three or four DOS files from
the format /s command. That is it and we don't recommend Linux
format partition and we do recommend Microsoft format. This is
not exceptional. It is pretty well the standard here.

I read your post. I hear you.

Wish to add: mill0001 did recommend a Linux partition, but it
was, I think too late.

~

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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1288
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 07:46    Post subject:  

Bruce B wrote:
However, Gparted, NFTS, Windows partition is the standard recommendation on this forum. Change will not occur.


If 'on this forum' means 'on this forum thread' then I agree.

I don't think it's generally true of the forum as a whole. There are many installation methods proposed.

I am an advocate of installing to Windows partitions BUT only when a Windows partition exists. I think Nooby, in his first response, was saying the same thing. The OP said he wanted Windows to exist - so Nooby said, as I would, stick the frugal on the NTFS partition cos it is already there. No need to make it difficult for yourself by adding other partitions.

If we have situation where there are only linux partitions at the start then make it easy for yourself and stick your frugal on a linux partition.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11050
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 08:58    Post subject:  

Brian,

Here are the [Sara's] conditions

I have a 120GB hard drive that I would like to partition for:

- frugal install of Puppy 4.3.0 retro
- XP (yes, I know, but I need it for some things)
- data to be shared between Puppy and XP

[ the drive was bare. Sara only ran DOS fdisk and format.
She is willing to change things ]


Her questions are:

- how many partitions do I need
- how big should they be
- what formats to choose

~~~

What would you like to recommend if you could? I'm not trying to
corner you, not at all. No two of us ever come up with the same
partitioning scheme. I am curious and I'll be pleased to tell you
what I'd recommend. Only I don't want to influence you by saying
in advance. Is this OK with you?

Bruce

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2635
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 10:44    Post subject:  

Bruce B wrote:
Brian,

Here are the [Sara's] conditions

I have a 120GB hard drive that I would like to partition for:

- frugal install of Puppy 4.3.0 retro
- XP (yes, I know, but I need it for some things)
- data to be shared between Puppy and XP

[ the drive was bare. Sara only ran DOS fdisk and format.
She is willing to change things ]


Her questions are:

- how many partitions do I need
- how big should they be
- what formats to choose

~~~

What would you like to recommend if you could? I'm not trying to
corner you, not at all. No two of us ever come up with the same
partitioning scheme. I am curious and I'll be pleased to tell you
what I'd recommend. Only I don't want to influence you by saying
in advance. Is this OK with you?

Bruce

~


Well, I'm not Brian, but here's what I did with my Windows XP system (IIRC, I have a 250GB drive): http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=521744#521744

Given a bare 120 GB drive, with XP to be installed, I would probably:

Partition 1) a 15-20 GB piece as NTFS -- install WinXP here.
Partition 2) a 120 GB minus 1GB, minus 15-20 GB formatted NTFS.
Partition 3) 1 GB Linux swap.

(that should add to 120 GB, if the math was right).

Or, alternatively I would make 4 partitions, basically as shown in my post above (noting that 1 GB of swap should be plenty).

Then, after installing XP and getting it fully functional and up to date, and installing a Puppy and Lin'N'Win setup, but before filling up partition #2 with other user files, I would perform a full backup using a tool such as Clonezilla (onto an external drive). Now you can restore a functioning system to a new, bare drive if needed.

The Frugal Puppy could reside on either partition, at your option. If you're going to place Puppy on the 1st partition, I would lean towards the larger size for #1 (since Puppy will eat up a chunk of disk space nearing 1GB).

All the user files (documents, pictures, movies, music, etc) are to be stored on partition #2 -- which makes incremental backups of the OS partition easier, since you're not loaded with other junk. And partition #2 should be backed up (i.e. simply copied) to an external drive periodically...

Of course, there would really be nothing wrong with 119GB NTFS partition, 1GB swap (using the entire drive in 2 partitions). Given that, I would boot Puppy, and use gparted to resize the main partition down by 1GB, and add the 1GB swap...

We should also note that multiple Frugal Puppies can be installed, each in their own folder.

And lastly, the Lin 'N Win instructions are easier if you boot up your Puppy to install, and perform the required file editing from there (since you don't need to un-hide, and un-protect the system files to modify them -- I would, however, make a copy of them before editing...just in case).

BTW: http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwin/step00-linnwin.htm

And when you get to this step, being booted from Puppy, you can directly edit the boot.ini file: http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwin/step2-xp.htm

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11050
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sat 21 May 2011, 12:44    Post subject:  

RetroTechGuy

As far as format type, IMO, you did right advice to the extent of
using MS format type. Here is why

Quote:
- data to be shared between Puppy and XP


If that is what she wants there isn't the option for Linux
formats. Unless, she wants to have them and install XP extender to
access them.

The only thing is you choose NTFS and her original format was
FAT32, she didn't say why.

I don't know why FAT32 and why not any Linux except for the
access criteria.

Bruce

~

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2635
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat 21 May 2011, 15:49    Post subject:  

Bruce B wrote:
The only thing is you choose NTFS and her original format was FAT32, she didn't say why.


I went with NTFS, as Fat32 won't support files larger than 4GB (i.e. if you have large tarballs, movies, etc, you will have a problem -- otherwise Fat32 is just fine). I use my machine for movie editing (which is really the only reason why I kept XP).

Quote:
I don't know why FAT32 and why not any Linux except for the access criteria.


I think Fat32 is more well known, and less likely to experience file system corruption, than NTFS. And if the above doesn't apply (4GB files), then I think it is superior (other perhaps less efficient file storage -- so each stored file will tend to eat more real space).

The other thing with Fat32 is that Linux can reliably repair it (I've had poor luck with Linux repairing NTFS).

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 21 May 2011, 16:43    Post subject:  

I prefer FAT32 for the same reasons. And I have lots of nice tools to
work with it.

So, it would be FAT32 partitions, especially on C:

An NTFS for the big files and Windows + Linux read and write on the
'big file partition'

How about that?

~

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2635
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun 22 May 2011, 00:32    Post subject:  

Bruce B wrote:
I prefer FAT32 for the same reasons. And I have lots of nice tools to
work with it.

So, it would be FAT32 partitions, especially on C:

An NTFS for the big files and Windows + Linux read and write on the
'big file partition'

How about that?

~


Sure, that sounds fine also... And I would install XP and Puppy on C: (Fat32).

I think that I may do that the next time I reconfigure my machine...

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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1288
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 23 May 2011, 08:02    Post subject:  

Bruce and Retro,

I usually don't get to this forum at the weekend so you have had to wait for my reply - sorry.

I don't see where Sara says she wanted FAT32 but all your discussion seems pretty reasonable.

To the three questions I would respond:

How many partitions do I need? How Big? What format?

You can get away with one big NTFS partition to have a frugal Puppy, XP and ability to read and write from Windows and Puppy.

If you like to keep data separate from the Windows software and apps it is good to have a separate data partition which should be NTFS and as big as you want it. Your Windows partition needs to be big enough for Windows XP and its software. Mine is about 30GB and I have the usual mix of office and normal home use software.

For the reasons you and retro mention about FAT32, such a partition is nice to have if you are worried about Linux writing to NTFS. If I had it then I would probably not make it more than 10GB.

Here are some guidelines I follow:

Install Windows XP first. It likes to take control so if you install 2nd it will remove the booting options of anything previously installed!

If you are going to partition use Windows to create NTFS partitions and FAT32 partitions. If you are desperate to create Linux partitions then I would use GParted from Puppy.

Install a frugal Puppy on Windows XP via the Lin'N'Win approach (I'm biased on that one - since I wrote it - but it covers EVERYTHING (except Windows 7) and I don't believe the Universal Installer does). Noryb's exe file is an OK alternative - I just like to do things manually.

Summing Up:

The very simplest approach is to Install windows XP and let it create one big NTFS partition.

Install Puppy frugal by Lin'N'Win

Done.

If you want any extra partitions make them NTFS and FAT32 as suggested above and make them at the Windows Install phase by doing a custom install.

-----------------------------------------------

I now have a Windows 7 machine with exactly the same problem. I had it fitted with 2 x 500 GB hard drives. Initially I asked my supplier to partition the disks in a mix of formats but they refused without charging me more. In the end we agreed on 200GB NTFS partition for Win 7 and 300GB NTFS partition on the first disk. The second disk is blank.

When Win 7 gets installed it creates a small recovery partition which takes another primary partition.

My plan is as follows:

Leave the recovery partition and the Windows partition well alone. Some people seem to have problems reducing the size of the Windows Partition and trying to reclaim the space.

Reduce the size of the 300GB NTFS partition to create a small (10 GB) FAT32 partition. This is for Windows 98 (don't ask) and some FAT32 data.

The second disk will be formatted with Linux partitions and used for testing full installs.

Puppy will be installed frugally as per Lin'N'Win, modified for Windows 7, on the Wndows 7 partition. I'm hoping the grub4dos menu can be adjusted to boot any full Linux installs on the second disk as well as Puppy, Windows 7 and the Windows 98 on the first disk. I like a challenge!
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon 23 May 2011, 10:08    Post subject:  

ICPUG wrote:
Bruce and Retro,

I usually don't get to this forum at the weekend so you have had to wait for my reply - sorry.

I don't see where Sara says she wanted FAT32 but all your discussion seems pretty reasonable.


She just said that she wanted Linux/XP compatibility. Linux can read/write NTFS with reasonable reliability, but I believe Fat32 has superior reliability from the cross platform standpoint. The drawback is files greater than 4GB (for example, I have an old Hauppage TV card, running on Win98 -- it ejects a video file every 4GB, if the record time runs longer than about 1.5H, so merging those files requires a file system that supports large files).

Additionally, my experience has been that Puppy cannot repair a corrupted NTFS (and with Puppy Frugal sitting on one of those Windows partitions, it might be better to have one in which you could boot to RAM, and repair the first partition (IIRC, it is fsck.vfat):

Code:
fsck.vfat /dev/sda1


Windows XP will run fine from a Fat32 partition, so both OS would be happy. And since Windows files aren't larger than 4GB, there's no issue.

Quote:
To the three questions I would respond:

How many partitions do I need? How Big? What format?

You can get away with one big NTFS partition to have a frugal Puppy, XP and ability to read and write from Windows and Puppy.

If you like to keep data separate from the Windows software and apps it is good to have a separate data partition which should be NTFS and as big as you want it. Your Windows partition needs to be big enough for Windows XP and its software. Mine is about 30GB and I have the usual mix of office and normal home use software.


My first partition, without Puppy coexisting, is 15GB. So anywhere in that range would probably be fine. Putting Puppy on partition 1, I would probably size partition 1 to be 20 or 25 GB.

I should note that my XP laptop came with a 20GB drive when I bought it (used) -- I later upgraded the drive to a 250GB.

I like to separate Windows from user files, since user files are "just files" but the WinXp system must be backed up with special software. So the troublesome partition is small, and the rest of the files are just periodically copied to an external backup drive (so I'm also more likely to perform regular backups of those user files -- incrementally).

Quote:
For the reasons you and retro mention about FAT32, such a partition is nice to have if you are worried about Linux writing to NTFS. If I had it then I would probably not make it more than 10GB.

Here are some guidelines I follow:

Install Windows XP first. It likes to take control so if you install 2nd it will remove the booting options of anything previously installed!

If you are going to partition use Windows to create NTFS partitions and FAT32 partitions. If you are desperate to create Linux partitions then I would use GParted from Puppy.


Yes, so during the initial format (though Windows) I would leave about 1 GB at the end of the disk. Then from Puppy/gparted create a 1 GB swap partition. One could also just create a 1 GB swap file (I don't know if the access efficiency/speed is the same for the file, as the partition)...

Quote:
Install a frugal Puppy on Windows XP via the Lin'N'Win approach (I'm biased on that one - since I wrote it - but it covers EVERYTHING (except Windows 7) and I don't believe the Universal Installer does).


Thank you for Lin'N'Win -- I love it. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

In the past, I would get the Debian live-boot installer, which does a very good job of installing grub, without wrecking your Windows install (I have not tried it on Win7). Lin'N'Win makes a reversible modification, which is even better.

The only change I make in your procedure is, after downloading the files, I boot to Puppy and do the editing from there (since Puppy doesn't know that Windows has hidden/protected the boot.ini). Then you can promptly perform a frugal install, copy the menu code over, and it's ready to rumble... Very Happy

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