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Puppy 5.3
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1923
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2011, 23:49    Post_subject:  

Insidious is a nice puplet for adventurous people, but it cannot be mainstream unless you freeze the packages and that's something you can do easily. The problem is that a puplet built with today's packages won't work with Debian Sid's packages tomorrow.

(And by the way: I made 001, the awesome fanbase made 002) Very Happy

To be honest, I don't like this woofization - I think T2 is the best way to go for Puppy, but Slackware is definitely the best choice if we go the Woof way. Slackware packages are almost the same as T2 packages, except the extra dependencies which aren't a big issue.

I don't like all this whining and endless discussions about which distro is a better base, so I just go with my ideas and turn them into actions - I got glibc's package as small as 7 MB in my tweaked T2 and it's building X at the moment. I aim at 80-90 MB with Calf Linux 005 Cool

Once I'm done with this T2 build I'll try to build a tpup ... if anyone wants to experiment with this path for 5.3 or 6.0, just jump on board. I'll upload the T2 I used, my patches, all packages and all sources, plus files for Woof. This is how uPup evolved into Lupu, isn't it? Smile

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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2011, 01:38    Post_subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
Quote:
I think T2 is the best way to go for Puppy, but Slackware is definitely the best choice if we go the Woof way.

Agreed word for word... Cool

One of the worst things I ever read was, "Puppy Linux, based on Ubuntu, "

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2011, 04:12    Post_subject:  

I don't have much experience of Linux. But let me make a brief comment on this

"Let's just decide what is best for USERS and stick with it."

My experience is that Linux Devs always go for what is best for the Dev.

And that is maybe the only way to do it or it would be a payed job and not fun at all. Smile

Way back in 2006 I also thought that Linux Devs was into making the best Linux for the "Users" but that seems to get it all wrong. But maybe this is a derail?
for this thread we have to keep it what is most likely to keep the Devs motivation. Don't talk about users or they quickly lose interest in it.

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dawnsboy


Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 248
Location: Indiana - Republic of New Canada

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2011, 06:59    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Quote:
I think T2 is the best way to go for Puppy, but Slackware is definitely the best choice if we go the Woof way.

Agreed word for word..
.

What he said....
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2011, 07:58    Post_subject:  

Hi all,

Ok, from responses since my last post:

nooby, (16 April)
I'm sure seaside is the first to admit that his approach is experimental, and while it seems to me like a good idea it is really beyond the scope of an 'official' Puppy. I hope you understand.

sc0ttman, (16 April)
Your first point about 'jumping the gun'. It takes several months to put a release together. I don't even want to talk about it too much because nothing is set in stone at this stage. Well, people may not even want me as a leader. Either way, I'll continue on with what I do.
On your second,third and fourth points, version numbers go in numerical order. It makes no difference if the next release is called 526 or 1000.
On your points about window manager apps, that is a valid concern. Do you propose a solution? If so I am all ears, if not I have some ideas.
On size, well the Vesa only idea is very experimental. However i did build a 101M relatively sane BABY spup-100. Try it if you like, see the spup thread. It uses Barry's 4babybuild script (a new addition) in woof.
Conservative libs is not an option when building with binary compatibility, however, that doesn't completely mean that things can't be backwards compatiile. The aim is to have a minimum of libs necessary. Slackware compatibility does lend itself to this. So, the chances of a static compile of an app will have greater chance of working in earlier Puppies. That said, we have no control over the requirements of the big devs, (mozilla, chromium, libreoffice etc). Of course I invite (um if I'm it) all compilers to get the best bang for byte out of any app.
All users are going to want this and that, me too, but we have limits and we work within them.

stu90, (16 April)
Browser chooser was nice but I am of the opinion that we need a full featured secure browser in the disto by default. When I first used Puppy I didn't like seamonkey too much either, but I am a former netscape user and I soon realised the similarities. In Lupu there is Midori, Dillo, the nss and nspr libs, and Sylpheed. All this adds up to about 9M compressed. Current Seamonkey is about 12M compressed. I preferred Puppy 500's approach with Puppy Browser but it's too out dated now. Of course browser choosing can be in, but Seamonkey (if I have any say), is in by default. I'm sure I'll get a million detractors, but that's how I feel about it.

Iguleder, (16 April)
"new2dir" works for well for most packages.

tubeguy, (17 April)
See answer to sc0ttman up the page.

Lobster, (17 April)
Ian is most welcome to help any way he can. I think he's in Brisbane? Only a half hour drive for me.

sszindian, (17 April)
Nice thoughts! A full on Puppy cloud service! Certainly possible, jamesbond, Master_wrong et al have been doing just that. However we are concerned with the more immediate future with the next Puppy version, not to say that your idea doesn't have merit.

stu90, (18 April)
Well, I guess the cloud can be viewed from different angles.

Luluc, (19 April)
"What does that mean? Will I have to migrate all my Ubuntu packages to Slackware?" you said.
Puppy is Puppy. Binary compatibility is another thing. I would hope that some body picks up on Ubuntu woof development with Maverick or Natty. It is doable. The rationale behind Slackware development of Puppy is historical as well as personal for me. That doesn't mean to say that I am the be all and end all, Barry is yet to approve any of this. It's his Puppy.
Now to address the "xz" compression idea, yes maybe it's bad, especially for older kit. I don't want to alienate the faithful. That is where the 100MB thing comes into the equation. This is possible by removing some not so well used kernel modules and printer drivers and placing them in a "zdrv" (search it Wink).
I agree 100% with Lobster on chat, Xchat is only about 300K compressed, as for Transmission, well that can be an add on as far as I'm concerned. Of course more comprehensive chat programs are/will be made available.
Encryption needs to be worked on. Want a portfolio?
As for auditing of packages, currently there is no signature in 'official' packages, so that may have to be taken up with the BD.
The next valid point would be the sound mixer. Playdayz mentions this in the other 5.3 thread. Any one know of a good light weight mixer? (gtk)

Lobster, (19 April)
I agree that the 'cloud' is here and accessible. It should be an option in my opinion in any OS. I also agree about chat, see above. As for running the browser as user 'spot' (or any other user) then that can be an option too. Finer points need to be worked out but I'm sure it can be done.

goolwa_pup, (19 April)
"just because your paranoid does not mean they are not after you", you said.. true, but it made me laugh!

ttuuxxx, (19 April)
Glad to have you on board! (That's as so long as we have a vessel :Wink: ). good compiles I think are the key to a good, small, stable release.

noryb009, (19 April)
"why is 5.3 going to be based on slackware when we already have ubuntu working?", you said. Why not? We're not Ubuntu, we're not Slackware. Actually, there may be more interest in an Arch based pup. Nothing is decided yet, I'll reiterate.

SouthPaws, (19 April)
"What about Debian...?", you said. I agree, we could do that too, but I have decided (and I being me) on Slackware. I'm not the boss! I do what I want. It's fun that way. Read above about whether this is final.

sszindian, (19 April)
Debian was going to be Puppy 5 with gposil, but he had some unforeseen circumstances and had to leave. If Iguleder wants Puppy 5.3 or 6 or whatever he can have it (in the best spirit Wink ) but I doubt he has the time or the inclination to follow it the 'woof' way.

Iguleder, (20 April)
see above Wink

puppyluvr, (20 April)
I know you are keen, what do you want to offer? Smile

nooby, (20 April)
Ah nooby my friend Smile , devs are just glorified users you know Wink

dawnsboy
What I said to puppyluvr Smile

______________________________________________

note. I am just a bloke who knows how to use the woof build system. It's fully up to Barry and you lot if I am to coordinate a puppy version. That doesn't mean to say I don't want help! I need every ounce possible. All of your responses I have read and considered. I hope it shows! Very Happy

Cheers!

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sszindian


Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 613
Location: Pennsylvania U.S.

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2011, 11:18    Post_subject: Thoughts !!!  

01micko... Thanks for taking all the time to reply to everyone here interested in 5.3!

Without question, you are the man to head the programming in this project.

Questions were presented and those involved responded with their own personal THOUGHTS... which is a good start for this project. Most of us are not programmers, with a few that are dabblers-in-code, most of us are USERS and I hope all the dev's keep that in mind... we are looking for a Puppy that will be 'functional, easy to use and just do what it should do (example: I still run a really old original 412 version on a IBM T22 laptop I have, it is refreshing to go to Ambiword and the spreadsheet and see the HELP function work in those programs from the program-menu itself, like it was intended. I have not seen that happen in any version since this Woof came along. Little things like that probably are not of concern to Barry and dev's who seldom if ever use those particular programs but it is really important to a USER like me... 525 did have help on those two BUT in the desktop menu-structure... who looks there when there is an Icon to click on on the desktop?

My request on 5.3 (no matter what the flavor) would be for 'Everything' that is included in the Puppy WORK 100% like it should or... don't put that program in there at all.)

I wish you all the luck on this 5.3 Mick... it won't be an easy road for you I'm sure, I hope you can put up with guys like me (and a few more) but... we test and complain and that's a good thing yes?

>>>---Indian------> Very Happy
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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2011, 23:39    Post_subject:  

damn it lobster Very Happy , a new thread without a note in the old, closing it.

It's almost worth a Twisted Evil forced Twisted Evil shell malting as a sentance.

My latest notes are there.

regards
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1923
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr 2011, 02:23    Post_subject:  

Good news, I produced a 81 MB LiveCD of Calf Linux Smile

Pretty much everything, except Python, Mesa and display drivers (they're tiny anyway, they're several K each). I'm going to trim ghostscript and ncurses, maybe other big packages too.

I might do some graph of the biggest packages - could be useful for the 5.3 trimming stage. Smile

Here's a little taste (and Moo is processing the first packages now):
Quote:
1.1M processed_packages/gawk-exe
1.4M processed_packages/glibc-minimal-exe
2.3M processed_packages/file-exe
3.9M processed_packages/coreutils-exe
9.2M processed_packages/ncurses-exe
16M processed_packages/glibc-exe
47M processed_packages/perl-exe
84M total


If I remember right, the whole main SFS was around 270 MB extracted - if these take 84 MB, it's horrible. It seems that the big packages are responsible for most of the size. Python and Mesa are somewhere around ncurses' size, I removed them just because of Puppy tradition. I think Perl, ghostscript and ncurses are the first packages I should trim, then I'll add Mesa and Python probably.

EDIT: btw, it's xorg 7.6 and kernel 2.6.38.3 with BFS, GTK is 2.24.4 and most packages are the latest or very recent ... who said you need xorg >=7.3 and kernel 2.6.18 to achieve this size? Wink

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MinHundHettePerro


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 855
Location: SE

PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr 2011, 07:06    Post_subject:  

Hello Smile!

Just in case someone is eager to start woofing up (pre-)13.37 spups from slackware-current, I made a dependency resolved PACKAGES.TXT à la Stabellini (his site seems to be down at the moment, by the way) for the slackware-current DVD build of 2011-04-19. You can find the file here.

Cheers Smile/
MHHP

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr 2011, 07:58    Post_subject:  



Still in Spup.

Created an Spup logo (that can easily be changed to Spot)
. . . whatever name Mick prefers

Also joined the announce list at Slackware, so should know when 13.37 is available
http://www.slackware.com/lists/

Sorry about the two threads,
there may be a third if we get the green light . . . Rolling Eyes

Also sorry if you have not added your ideas to the developing wiki page

another promo video
http://youtu.be/lQRfgrbT7lY

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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11782
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr 2011, 13:31    Post_subject:  

Anyway, Lobster is doing his promotion job.
I know know about the 5.3 plans and I am happy it is spup based. I use that for quite some releases now. Good work 01mick.

As for functionality, I see Bluetooth and udf (udftools) to be added if possible.

Also I am eager to see how the bug tracking system will work.
Needs good management for it, but anyway those 200+ thread are almost impossible to digest, specially if one is away for (even a short) while and without internet access.

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live

Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2011, 05:24    Post_subject:  

>Also I am eager to see how the bug tracking system will work.

I agree:
1/ bug reporting is poor, I'm ready to give some hand, as have a reputation to be witted in that area.
2/ bug reporting is nice, but without actions it's an intellectual masturbation.

My personal wish would be
1/ fix booting bugs - I have at least one.
2/ fix missing hardware support - I have couple, some other complained about same issues.
3/ fix software bugs - I have some as well.

Some bugs I reported are still unfixed in Lupu525 and I won't report any other, until I see actual fixes.
I have not the knowledge (maybe it'll come with experience) to fix them myself.

Last being "conservative".
Well, sure if you introduce too much novelty at once, you are at risk to be unable to pinpoint the effect of radical changes. I remember an interview of a test pilot during the quest for super & hyper-sonic planes (X-series projects), that in one of the X-model, NASA introduced so many new technologies, that they never figured out why this model didn't fly correctly and had to revert back to the previous X-model fork.

At the same time, staying with outdated technology for conservative purpose is also unwise (I'm thinking here at staying with Iron 6 in Debian, or old ntfs-3g).
Inspire yourself of http://partedmagic.com/doku.php?id=changelog

Respectfully,

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bones01

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 371
Location: Melbourne, Aus

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2011, 07:33    Post_subject:
Sub_title: browser
 

01micko wrote:
Hi all,



stu90, (16 April)
Browser chooser was nice but I am of the opinion that we need a full featured secure browser in the disto by default. When I first used Puppy I didn't like seamonkey too much either, but I am a former netscape user and I soon realised the similarities. In Lupu there is Midori, Dillo, the nss and nspr libs, and Sylpheed. All this adds up to about 9M compressed. Current Seamonkey is about 12M compressed. I preferred Puppy 500's approach with Puppy Browser but it's too out dated now. Of course browser choosing can be in, but Seamonkey (if I have any say), is in by default. I'm sure I'll get a million detractors, but that's how I feel about it.

Cheers!


Micko, I want to add my voice to the inclusion of a working browser. It has been an immense frustration to me that when I run a Live CD I can't have full access to the net. Seamonkey is OK for me. I can get Firefox myself (or Opera) later if I choose.

Cheers

Bones

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tubeguy


Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1332
Location: Park Ridge IL USA

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2011, 08:46    Post_subject:  

Logo idea, need feedback!



Some different versions:

http://tubeguy.org/puppybg/spup_logo_transparent.png

http://tubeguy.org/puppybg/spup_logo_blue_gradient.png

http://tubeguy.org/puppybg/spot_logo_plain.png

http://tubeguy.org/puppybg/spot_logo_blue_back.png

http://tubeguy.org/puppybg/spot_logo_blue_gradient2.png

Edit: 2 more:

http://tubeguy.org/puppybg/puppy_linux_spup_logo_blue_background.png

http://tubeguy.org/puppybg/puppy_linux_spup_logo_plain.png

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dejan555


Joined: 30 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2011, 08:54    Post_subject:  

I like this one the best
http://tubeguy.org/puppybg/spot_logo_blue_back.png

Not sure about the white eye though.

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