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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Puppy Power
Puppy on smart phones
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eztuxer


Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 485
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan 2011, 19:44    Post subject:  Puppy on smart phones
Subject description: This comes first on my wish list
 

I can't wait to show off with a custom version of Puppy 5.2 on my HTC Hero
which runs Androïd until I can make the switch.
I don't know how much tweaking it will require, but I'm sure boot up time will be greatly reduced, and the whole thing will run much faster.

This wish should be interpreted as a compliment on Puppy general abilities, and high quality performance.

Boy, I just love the 5.2 version !

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Last edited by eztuxer on Sat 08 Jan 2011, 20:02; edited 1 time in total
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan 2011, 19:57    Post subject:  

eztuxer , I only guess but I find it very likely that HTC Hero use an cpu that needs Debian and Android has proprietary code so that would take someone doing all that work again so it works for puppy.

Seems highly unlikely to me.

But there are one smartphone that maybe use a standard x86 type of modern computer and maybe that one could be ported but that would be difficult too.

Does the hardware firms really give out those secrets.

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan 2011, 13:38    Post subject:  

Smartphones as well as tablets are now a hot topic overall. I remember that at the beginning of last year I wrote a forum message saying that 2010 would be the year of the tablet. Several people disagreed. My estimate was in fact a bit out, in the sense that the real take-off spurt of the tablet form-factor will really start to show itself in 2011.

Microsoft is in deep deep trouble with this. They don't have anything at all that can compare with the Android platform. It is expected that it will be at least two years before a real Microsoft based tablet will come to market. By then the train will have long since left the station and their (Microsoft's) arch-enemy Google, will have won. Just as has been long predicted by many. Ballmer has a lot of explaining to do.

What about Linux in general (and Puppy in particular) as a smartphone/tablet OS? - well now, it's got to happen I reckon. With all the clamour for smartphones and tablets Microsoft and Intel have now lost the place they once had in high-tech. They will still be around, but they won't command the same market-share they once enjoyed. Google and ARM have seen to that.

There is now an absolutely golden opportunity for Puppy to step in here.

1. A customised kernel build with touch-screen capability and smartphone hardware support is required.
2. Once this is sorted, a customised Puppy user interface needs to be built.
3. An applications market-place needs to be set up.

Actually everything in principle that is needed is already mostly there. The Linux kernel already has touch-screen capability included. Google are to open-source their Android 2.3 Froyo kernel as well - so that could act as a starting point. Maybe a "puppyfied" Android version is the way to go.

Getting started on this yesterday is not too soon IMO.
I'll do further research.

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan 2011, 16:27    Post subject:  

I love to be wrong about this but as far as I know they still have proprietary code and that is why all those guys have to "jailbreak" to get root access.

And for how long will google accept that. I trust them sue those Devs that try to make a Puppy with root access based on android.

How else could one make it work? Sure Debian has code for ARM and RISC and such CPUs but then the Puppy Devs need to do all the other work and that would take years.

But hopefully I have missed something. Where do you have read that they really give up on their secrets? None would need to do jailbreak if it was open code.

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan 2011, 17:09    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:

Quote:
I trust them sue those Devs that try to make a Puppy with root access based on android.


Android itself is Linux and Google is obliged and does make the source-code available.

Only last week Google have been requesting that handset manufacturers supply their phones already rooted so that hacking (jailbreaking) them would not be necessary. Whether or not they (the manufacturers) would agree to do this is entirely a matter for them. I imagine though that handsets eventually could be sold rooted, but at a higher than normal price point.

Yes, it could be a long job getting a good Puppy version working on a smartphone handset. This has already been achieved on a tablet though by some Indian manufacturer if I remember correctly. So this is a start at least.

nooby wrote:

Quote:
I love to be wrong about this but as far as I know they still have proprietary code


Stories have emerged in the past about Google being slow and unwilling to make their customised kernel sources available. They are on record however as saying that the source code for Android 2.3 FroYo is in fact to be made available. Google use various in-house-manufactured and customised Linux kernel versions for various purposes, other than Android, whose source code they do seem reluctant to make available. This is plain illegal according the terms of the GPL. It's Google who should get sued here if anything. Google seems to think that it is above the law - but appears to get away with it. Look at the data-gathering scandal they are involved in at the moment in various countries around the world UK, South Korea, Germany etc. etc.

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nooby

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan 2011, 17:19    Post subject:  

Yes hopefully I am wrong but AFAIK it still is proprietary though?
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eztuxer


Joined: 06 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan 2011, 19:55    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:


Google seems to think that it is above the law - but appears to get away with it. Look at the data-gathering scandal they are involved in at the moment in various countries around the world UK, South Korea, Germany etc. etc.




http://biggooglebrother.org/

OMG ! Big Android Brother is in my Smartphone ! Shocked

One more good reason to run it with Puppy ! Cool

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eztuxer


Joined: 06 Nov 2008
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Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan 2011, 20:16    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:


There is now an absolutely golden opportunity for Puppy to step in here.

1. A customised kernel build with touch-screen capability and smartphone hardware support is required.
2. Once this is sorted, a customised Puppy user interface needs to be built.
3. An applications market-place needs to be set up.

Actually everything in principle that is needed is already mostly there. The Linux kernel already has touch-screen capability included. Google are to open-source their Android 2.3 Froyo kernel as well - so that could act as a starting point. Maybe a "puppyfied" Android version is the way to go.

Getting started on this yesterday is not too soon IMO.
I'll do further research.


I think we wont need to set up an apps market, we (you guys, I'm just an amateur) could/should make it compatible with existing apps like the PPM does with .deb PKGs. Idea

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 09 Jan 2011, 05:04    Post subject:  

eztuxer wrote:

Quote:
OMG ! Big Android Brother is in my Smartphone ! Shocked One more good reason to run it with Puppy ! Cool


Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Other good reasons:

1. Puppy has already got the nice small apps that would suit smartphones. O.K., the PPM is the Puppy online apps market - as you say.

2. Puppy has easy remastering via it's built-in system as well as the Woof build system.

3. Good backup tools - very handy for smartphones.

4. Multisession system that can incrementally back up your
personal changes. Maybe not used so much for desktop systems - useful for tablets though.

5. Current smartphones - even the expensive high end Android devices from HTC, Samsung and the like, that use 1GHz processors such as Snapdragon are not really shatteringly fast compared to Puppy-based systems running on even quite ancient PC's. A significant Android problem IMO. Installing a customised Puppy version could improve this.

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drongo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 354
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun 09 Jan 2011, 06:03    Post subject: GPL stuff  

You only need to provide source code if you distribute modified code.

Android is distributed to 'phone manufacturers.

Arguably, Google's special flavour of Linux they use internally is not distributed.

There's a sensible logic here. If someone modified Linux and never showed it to anyone else it would be almost impossible to detect. Once you give a copy to someone else, however, that is easier to detect and make rules about. Rules that are impossible to enforce are pointless unless they have some minor deterrent value.

I am not a lawyer!
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eztuxer


Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 485
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun 09 Jan 2011, 12:22    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:


5. Current smartphones - even the expensive high end Android devices from HTC, Samsung and the like, that use 1GHz processors such as Snapdragon are not really shatteringly fast compared to Puppy-based systems running on even quite ancient PC's. A significant Android problem IMO. Installing a customised Puppy version could improve this.


Yes my HTC hero takes over 90 seconds to display the PIN login panel, that's way over puppy on my desktop full HDD instal wich takes only 22 seconds.
I'ts one big draw back for a phone, if it's turned OFF and you need to make an emergency call. Sad

I don't know how big is their linux system file.

Some useful stuff to read:

http://source.android.com/porting/index.html

http://www.developer.com/ws/article.php/3893591/The-Android-Mobile-Development-Platform-A-Reference-Guide.htm

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eztuxer


Joined: 06 Nov 2008
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Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun 09 Jan 2011, 12:46    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
I love to be wrong about this but as far as I know they still have proprietary code and that is why all those guys have to "jailbreak" to get root access.


I think the main reason for "jail breaking" is that if they put root access phones on the market this should be done without any warranty whatsoever, 'cause folks would screw it up in no time.

Like Linpus lite on AAO is quite "locked" because it's meant to be used by newbees, same goes for Buntu, and other mainstream oriented distros.

Legal use seems OPEN:

Contributor License Grants

Quote:
All individual contributors (that is, contributors making contributions only on their own behalf) of ideas, code, or documentation to the Android Open Source Project will be required to complete, sign, and submit an Individual Contributor License Grant. The grant can be executed online through the code review tool. The grant clearly defines the terms under which intellectual property has been contributed to the Android Open Source Project. This license is for your protection as a contributor as well as the protection of the project; it does not change your rights to use your own contributions for any other purpose.


http://source.android.com/source/licenses.html

In any case, we could ask them if they have any legal objection to the "puppyfying" of android.

I do not believe they stand on different legal ground than let's say Ubuntu, or Slackware.

The GPL licence remains valid IMO. Question

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Sun 09 Jan 2011, 13:33    Post subject:  

Does anyone in this thread have any thoughts on the way Red Hat and Novell S.u.S.e exploit the the Linux kernel? - e.g. you have to pay for a copy of either of these two OS's if you want to use them - and they're not cheap - especially Red Hat.

How does this square with the copyleft principles of the GPL? Are they simply allowed to close out the system to
you if you don't pay them? Doesn't seem like GPL to me - but then I'm no legal expert. Just because it has gone on for some time doesn't necessarily mean that it's all legal and above board. Who is to challenge them?

Do they really stick to the principles as defined in the GPL licence?

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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2292

PostPosted: Sun 09 Jan 2011, 16:35    Post subject:  

You are only required to provide source code if your *distribute* programs. Redhat and other such companies only distribute the programs if you pay for them -but they also distribute the sources to you at the same time, so GPL is upheld.

I wouldn't be too hard on redhat as they have been *the* major contributor to kernel development among the distros. They still have quite a few folks on their payroll who do nothing but work on the mainstream kernel sources. They have also, through the years, created or contributed to many, many small and large projects which are now, or have been, considered to be essentials.

All that said, unless I'm wrong, 100% of the redhat sources are available for download anyway -fedora and centOS are both built using the redhat sources.
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sun 09 Jan 2011, 22:36    Post subject:  

http://groups.google.com/group/android-kernel

http://groups.google.com/group/android-kernel/browse_thread/thread/71a7cb1c35933a21

http://computersnewbie.blogspot.com/2009/11/google-android-20-in-puppy-linux.html

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=483077

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/22665/run-android-on-your-netbook-or-desktop/

Maybe useful...?

not so

http://sdcardrecovery.org/live-sd-micro-card-with-puppy-linux-distro/

http://alternativeto.net/software/puppy-linux/?platform=android

see also

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=485136#485136

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=485109#485109

Aitch Smile
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