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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Sage Live - 511 -53
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hayden


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 58
Location: New Hampshire USA

PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2011, 10:35    Post subject: the size of TeX  

I just looked at my manual for the ancient PC TeX 3.1 and it required 8.5 Mb of disk space . I have installed LyX for Windows many times -- usually unsuccessfully. It's huge and I think the pholosophy is to include everything anyone might ever need. As I recall, one install option was a smaller package set up to download missing pieces as needed. I don't know enough about the internals to advise on what to cut except that the styles, classes and templates could probably be made much shorter. As a first approximation, keep the short names and drop the long or journal-specific ones. So article.cls is needed but maybe not article-XYZ.cls or PQR-article.cls. Someone who needs them could probably find them online.

The base TeXlive package for Mepis is 18Mb and the binaries half that so it sounds like you are getting everything but the kitchen sink in your download. How big is the file in the Lucid repositories? If it does require an sfs twice as big as Sage Live then maybe it should not be a part of Sage Live.
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emil

Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 612
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2011, 11:55    Post subject: Re: the size of TeX  

hayden wrote:
I just looked at my manual for the ancient PC TeX 3.1 and it required 8.5 Mb of disk space . I have installed LyX for Windows many times


You probably mean Tex here Very Happy .

Anyway, yes they recommend to do the full install. However installing some subsets is popular - I just checked the Ubuntu Texlive package was 130 MB. Thats approximatly the size of the popular "MiKTex" package in windows.

There is a package manager, but I didn't find how to use it yet Question
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hayden


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 58
Location: New Hampshire USA

PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2011, 13:09    Post subject: LyX and TeX  

Actually in Windows I install LyX and IT installs MiKTeX. I do it that way because then they are installed in compatible fashion and can find one another.

Not sure which package manager you refer to. I thought Sage Live was built on Lucid Puppy and that Lucid Puppy could install Ubuntu Lucid packages? I think the default Puppy Lucid package manager has an option to look at some Ubuntu repositories but they seem small compared to all that is available for Ubuntu. I was going to say I've never installed an Ubuntu package in Puppy but maybe I have. I don't recall anything in the install procedure saying which repository a package came from.
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emil

Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 612
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2011, 16:11    Post subject: texlive 2011  

I know understand the TeX distribution a bit better. There is an installer which can be used to download only needed packages. But if a decent subset is installed it will still be several 100 of MB, so for puppy it is better to install this as an sfs file.

I have prepackaged the following (from small to large, small packages are subsets of the larger ones):

texlive-2011-MIN.sfs (18 MB) just bare minimum
texlive-2011-MEDIUM.sfs (177 MB) has LaTeX and recommended packages
texlive-2011-TETEX.sfs (334 MB) famous TeTeX distribution
texlive-2011-FULLAPP.sfs (551 MB) full Texlive sans docs and source
texlive-2011-FULL.sfs (1489 MB) full TexLive Package

texlive-2011-DOC-SRC.sfs (939 MB) Docs and Sourcecode

Those were made in Sage Live, but I *think* it should work in most puppies. Sure these are huge files, but they are a lot smaller than a download of the full distribution (2.4 GB on DVD iso).

Download texlive prepackaged

There is an installer which can be used to download a custom package. It is fine for full install puppies, but for frugal installs it is not straightforward how to avoid full savefiles/disks and to build a custom sfs package (it's not too difficult either).
install-tl-unx.tar.gz

To build an automated custom texlive sfs creator would be a nice little project I post a version of the new LyX soon.
kind regards
Emil
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emil

Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 612
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2011, 07:31    Post subject: LyX-2.0.1  

Dependencies:
qt4-4.8.0
aspell-0.60.6.1
Lyx-2.0.2

Take care Cool
emil
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hayden


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 58
Location: New Hampshire USA

PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec 2011, 14:09    Post subject: lout -- a tiny alternative to LaTeX  

This might be of interest for your smallest Sage Live and maybe even for the larger one.

Quote:
Lout is similar in function to LaTeX and troff. Indeed, it borrows ideas, techniques and conventions from these typesetting systems. . For simple documents, Lout, LaTeX and troff offer much the same functionality, with different syntax..

Lout makes it easy to mix text and graphics. You can draw lines, arrows and boxes, scale and rotate objects, use color commands. While many of these things are possible in LaTeX by including Postscript files generated by utility programs such as xfig, you have to specify the size of each included figure, losing a lot of Lout's flexibility.

The Lout distribution is very easy to compile and maintain, which certainly is not the case of many TeX distributions. The Lout distribution is much smaller (it fits onto a floppy disk) than LaTeX, and doesn't require storing tfm and pk font outlines (since Postscript fonts are used).

On the other hand, LaTeX is much more widely used than Lout (TeX has been around since the late 1970s, Lout only since 1991). It will be easier to find a local TeXpert than a Louter, and there are many more user-contributed packages for LaTeX than for Lout. Many academic journals request (or require) that papers be submitted in LaTeX. Lout uses more memory than TeX, up to 10MB to compile large documents.

Last but not least, Lout comes with very comprehensive and comprehensible documentation. The user's guide contains all you need to know for using Lout effectively - something that is hard to find in the LaTeX world because LaTeX consists of so many different packages (which sometimes don't get along all that well).


A bit of history. Back in the 1970s mainframes offered vi and emacs to edit text and the roff family and Scribe to format text for printing. Many early home computer word processors combined stripped-down versions of Emacs and Scribe. These included Mince and Perfect Writer for CP/M and later Perfect Writer, Final Word, and Borland Sprint for DOS.

TeX originated as a typesetting language. LaTeX is a set of TeX macros that add Scribe-like document creation features to TeX. (The syntax for the added features is very similar to Scribe.) Lout, OTOH, is descended more directly from Scribe, with some features (math. equations) similar to LaTeX.

Anyway, something that fits on a floppy and has a single comprehensive user manual might be appearling to students -- or to creators of light scientific Linux distros;-)


Quote edited from

http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/lout/index.php?title=FAQ
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emil

Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 612
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Tue 06 Dec 2011, 16:35    Post subject:  

Hi hayden - I dind't knew "Lout" - nice find. Anyway I will stick with LaTeX, Libreoffice, Geany and mg. My main goal is not the size, but it should have some practical value. I think it is better to let Students use LaTeX, than to let them learn an even more "obscure" Typesetting language. Of course if the Prof. uses it, things are different ...

regarding the texlive size - with a halfway decent hardware the use of these sfs is no problem. I would even recommend to use the FULLAPP or TETEX package, because the are comprehensive and beginners shouldn't have problems with missing components.
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1288
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 21:15    Post subject:  

My internet download speed is back up again.

I went to download the sagelite-serverb1.iso and this is only available from the one source which is a slower download speed. I can download the full version from mydrive quicker than the lite version!

Any chance of putting the lite versions somewhere else as well, e.g. mydrive.ch?
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emil

Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 612
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec 2011, 03:31    Post subject:  

Hi,
hmm - I can pull the light version to mydrive - however I want to apply an important bugfix first. It might need a few days, because I am a bit busy atm. cheers
emil
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1288
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 12 Dec 2011, 20:52    Post subject:  

No problems.

I can pull the latest full version until you are less busy
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emil

Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 612
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Wed 14 Dec 2011, 18:05    Post subject: Sage Lite Server2  

Ok I applied the bugfix Very Happy .
The iso is on http://mydrive.ch (user download@sagelive, pwd mathematics) (its just below 400 MB)

I have also updated the files on the alternativ download server in seattle/washington.
sage-lite2.iso
sage-lite2.ova

some release notes

I made those versions as a showcase for several technical possibilities:
1) make a usable sage program with small size (latest sage installs with over 1.5 GB)
2) make a preconfigured multiuser server, so it is easy to setup in a small network (e.g. in a school) which can be accessed through the net with the browser.
3) make it secure on puppy - I guess there are still loopholes, but especially when run as virtual machine under Virtual Box this should give an appropriate testbed ("sandboxed")

Just some notes on the server functionality:
the sage server is run under user "sageadmin". It listens and sends its output on port 8000. To allow multiple users to log in and work at the same time, there are also users 1, 2, 3 .. 29. If you log in with https://IP:8000, sageadmin has to ssh into one of those helper accounts - so it is possible to create "unlimited" user accounts, but only 29 can be logged in at the same time.

To make the logging in possible, there is a set of ssh keys generated at "firstrun". Those keys are stored in the savefile, so they are persistent. (There is the possibility to run the script fix-ssh-keys.sh from command line to generate a new set of keys). The ssh daemon is started at the same time with the sage server, so it is off by default. It can be started with the full path (only): /usr/sbin/sshd

security considerations
It is also possible to ssh into the server, but to do so you will have to change passwords as described in the release notes. Maybe also change the hostname (/etc/hostname). I avoided to have ssh daemon running by default with known passwords and ssh keys included into the iso for security considerations.

During the creation and testing I run into various permission issues with such a "multi-user" setup. e.g. permissions of /tmp, /dev/tty, busybox and other system files. I am glad to say that I checked, and 01micko has most of those sorted out in slacko. I hope those don't creep in again ... Maybe the light version is reduced a bit to aggressively to use it as standard desktop distro. Many of the usual puppy programs are stripped out (for some I removed the menu entries, but they are still there). But it will be possible to apply those techniques to full versions.

I will see, I probably put this into my "VirtualBox- Windows installer", then I will have christmas-break ...

cheers Cool
emil
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vanchutr

Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 426

PostPosted: Thu 15 Dec 2011, 23:05    Post subject: Bug in TeXLive 2011  

Load texlive-2011-FULLAPP.sfs in squeeze_5.X.9 but ... this error:

# latex bachai
This is pdfTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.3-1.40.12 (TeX Live 2011)
restricted \write18 enabled.

kpathsea: Running mktexfmt latex.fmt
/usr/local/texlive/2011/bin/i386-linux/mktexfmt: line 395: /texlive/texmf/texconfig/tcfmgr: No such file or directory
fmtutil: config file `fmtutil.cnf' not found.
I can't find the format file `latex.fmt'!

Please repack yours .sfs
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emil

Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 612
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec 2011, 02:36    Post subject:  

Hi vanchutr,

can you post the "bachai" file?
thanks
emil
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vanchutr

Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 426

PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec 2011, 21:05    Post subject:  

bachai.tex was typed in vietnamese chars but you can compile in LaTeX to see result.
I want to know what happen with "fmtutils". TeXLive did'nt made an latex.fmt -> Can't build anything
This is source file in tar.gz
Cheer
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emil

Joined: 10 Nov 2009
Posts: 612
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec 2011, 05:22    Post subject:  

Hi vanchutr,

I am sorry, I cannot reproduce the error in my Sage Live setup.
(loaded FULL_APP on the fly). I get the following (see Attachement - it's a pdf, so please rename it. The pdf extension is not allowed Rolling Eyes )

I thought the packages are mostly "puppy independent" so I'd like to find out what the problem is. Should we move this discussion to Additional Software Documents or Projects?

cheers
emil
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