Making Puppy Experience Easy Was: Puppy WUBI-branch

[nooby]

moB

Perhaps a USB key could work for Vista/seven users

only if you teach them how to boot from USB.

That is different for each machine. Some need one go into BIOS and change order. Some machines allow one du F12 and there chose the USB
and all this has to be done within some 5 seconds or so at boot up?

Nope not everybody manage to do such.

I tried to boot from USB with several Puppy and other Linux on my Acer very modern only some month old Net top computer.

Some times it was impossible to boot. And I spent many hours on how to do it and it was very difficult. One the HP/Compaq it works almost each time same USB.

So it is highly individual if it works.

So I support one do find easy ways to let people get to know Puppy linux.

DVD does not always work either.

the Acer is too small to have a DVD one need an external such and not everybody care to buy such.

and DVD not always work to boot. I failed with two different Linux distros on my neighbors computer. I was helping him with getting antivirus before him activated his new windows XP installation.

Puppy on DVD would be ideal for such download. But it failed to boot.

[moB]

only if you teach them how to boot from USB.

So it is highly individual if it works.

So I support one do find easy ways to let people get to know Puppy linux.

DVD does not always work either.

nooby,

I appreciate your observations, especially the "highly individual if it works" point!

A virtualization solution may be best for most users, if setup and configuration details could be automated for them.

Then all that would be needed is to run with administrative privileges.

From icon: Alt-click => Run As => The Following user
if not using admin account type. (Of course password must be know.)

Regards,
moB

[moB]

A good way to make booting into Puppy with ms-win dual boot is to copy the files for frugal to the NTFS/FAT32 partition and make no changes to the boot sector. Do not install grub.
Use a Puppy cd to boot to Puppy. When Puppy see that the required files are on HD it switches to running from these. The cd can be removed at that point allowing reboot of Ozzie-ware.
The live cd can be used to install and boot. Sort of like a key with toolkit on its keychain.

As nooby said, one still has the obstacles of iso burning & of modifying boot sequence. Although not impossible it is a bit scary for many.


Regards,
moB

(When you first shut down or reboot from Puppy, you'll get a chance to copy the main file to a hard drive, flash drive, or whatever, which will make the boot-up a whole lot faster after that; do it!)

http://www.pa-mcclamrock.com/getstart.h ... 0Puppy.htm

Whales are being 'blinded' by the increasing noise in our seas.
http://www.google.com/search?q=whales+blinded+noise


Who's Ozzie: ( http://www.google.com/search?q=ozzie+retiring+microsoft )

[nooby]

First time me tested Linux was a CD from canonix? Ubuntu 6.04 in 2006 something.

Extremely slow. Then I tested to do a Qemu of same Ubuntu or maybe it was 8.04 instead that time. 2008. Extremely slow and then a friendly soul told me about Puppy DVD and multisession. Wow faster than the fastest windows me had had experience of.

But it took long time before me managed to learn all the booting from menu.lst thing.

So Wubi was the easiest way to get such going on an XP machine.

Then new trouble when they gave us the Vista for free when we bought a new machine. Wubi to rescue again. Think it took me some 6 month of daily struggle to learn how to replace the wubi with Neosmart and grub4dos.

So if other newbies are like me one sure need an easy way to get a sense for how things work.

I think DVD could be best if one learn it from somebody knowing how to.

Vbox and other such virtualization can work too but I only used it for testing distros that insisted them to be installed right away.


I prefer to only use Linux distros that allow for frugal installs on same partition as the main OS.

[ICPUG]

Fascinating discussion.

I thought I would add another thought to the mix.

The problem with making this ultra easy approach for running Puppy is just when we get it sorted out Windows will change their stuff to make it hard again.

We had solutions for Windows 9X and then Windows XP. OK, Lin'N'Win is a manual approach, which is not liked by all, but a couple of automated installers have come along and helped some.

Then along comes Vista and Windows 7 and the whole shooting match changes because of BCD. I'd love to know the decision process behind the move to BCD. Was hindering the hooking in of alternative operating systems part of the reason?

The fundamental problem is that when you buy a PC it is set up up to boot Windows. The most basic part of the startup process, the MBR, is hijacked by Windows. If only PCs came with Grub in the MBR by default and then, if Windows must be installed, configured to run Windows from Grub, life would be so much easier for hooking in alternative OS. Some people are happy to allow grub to take over the MBR and run Windows this way and will even tell you it is cast-iron foolproof. Trouble is I have seen posts on various forums where people have come to grief - so I do not recommend it! Of course even in this rosy coloured world things would have been upset when Grub2 came along. It seems that the natural progression of things is to make things ever more complicated!

Subverting the boot process is the one true way.

Flash booting is one way of doing this, which is why it is good now that more modern PCs allow flash booting. However, it seems from what Nooby says there is no standardised way of flash booting so that falls over in the easyness stakes!

Live CD was the first way and this is more or less standardised - which has made it extremely popular.

Perhaps the only simple way is to stick to using a Live CD - anything else requires a little bit of complexity.

[shinobar]

Then along comes Vista and Windows 7 and the whole shooting match changes because of BCD.

We have already overcome the BCD thanks to the great work of noryb009.
Now calling for the testing report of the Lucid-Puppy-Quickset-edition-511-Installer.exe.
Just download and one-click(double-click?) on any version(95 to 7) of Windows.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=61404

Of course the Live CD is the best if the PC can boot up from the CD, still i think.

[nooby]

Live DVD is even better because you can have multi session and there is plenty of size on a 3.7 DVD and they are almost as cheap as a CD.

But okay I am happy with CD too but never use them.

The Flash memory stick boot problem can be due to some of them had U3 Smart on them or similar auto loading of prgrams for Windows?

And Flash have very different boot timing to get active enough to be read.

the cheaper or cheapest most likely the slower/slowest?

But sadly Notebooks with a 10.1 " inch screen that was rather cheap to buy had no CD/DVD at all so they are dependent on USB booting or over the internet.

What you take up ICPUG will only get more complicated in future when every cheap computer have Android that needs to be Jailbraked to allow root access for to install Linux that is FOSS? free and not proprietery to Google?

Maybe me too pessimistic. But hopefully they allow us to use linux but the trend looks like they build in Android on Rom and then not allow anything else? Boxed in.

Am I wrong? Does Android computers allow dual booting in an easy way?

[moB]

Then along comes Vista and Windows 7 and the whole shooting match changes because of BCD.

We have already overcome the BCD thanks to the great work of noryb009.
Now calling for the testing report of the Lucid-Puppy-Quickset-edition-511-Installer.exe.
Just download and one-click(double-click?) on any version(95 to 7) of Windows.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=61404

Of course the Live CD is the best if the PC can boot up from the CD, still i think.

That's great news! thank you for that

Still there's a bit of trouble with some references for users.

After asking several persons to read the puppyDOTorg page not one chose to read this link:
http://puppylinux.org/main/How%20NOT%20 ... 0Puppy.htm

Perhaps the link should more clearly advertize itself as "read me first"?

Running from a cd or dvd is the bridge to either a frugal install or saving to the removable optical device.

Btw/ do we have a utility to discern that the optical device is rewritable?

If the free space were made into one or two large 2/3fs squash filesystem files the discs wouldn't fill as quickly. We have to make the whole free space into personal save files to avoid over-burning the same sectors.

Anyways, did anyone read "how not to install Puppy" link at first glance?

How should it be better phrased? Do we advise them to use a title tag to pop up info on mouseover in that area of the page?

At least Barry K's puppylinuxDOT.com isn't bothered by such labeling of links.

Thanks for the news about Quickset.

moB

[moB]

====

Puppy still not as easy to adopt a many more sophisticated users believe.
Not even as easy as a flesh and blood puppy-dog! (Sorry Vincent, no offense intended.)

Our nooby, in particular, has been campaigning for more ease of installation & transition from mainstream OSs.

Hey nooby! you get a special mention in this review!

You may have noticed the puppy user Nooby, who is
not as slow as he says, obviously, but who is also obviously not a
developer or linux guru ...

Review: Puppy Linux Lucid Puppy With Screenshots - Tech
URL: http://g33q.co.za/2010/06/28/review-pup ... reenshots/


The key might reside in msSeven's "XP-mode". Targeting XP users seems
logical. Its installed base is still more than Vista/seven combined.
XPmode uses a modified version of ms's virtualization solution, I think.

Either way, make a binary which will work for XP and it will be acceptable
to Seven (skipping that first, unsuccessful version called Vista, which
should be immediately replaced wherever it is installed

Greetings from the sea!
moB


====

[nooby]

Our nooby, in particular, has been campaigning for more ease of installation & transition from mainstream OSs.

thanks for the Cheer up

the problem with Nooby is that he has been using computers since they become affordable to ordinary house holds. Z80 Sinclair and such 8 bit Basic computers that used Cassette and had not hard disks and I still am now some 30 yeas later still a kind of Newbie but a very experienced Newbie in that I can wild guess things that the very Newbie has not knowledge of but them are less "Propeller Head" as a distinguished member of the Forum named me.

So my confused brain are bad at reading instructions but I am different to most users in that I write question upon question until I get something going and that can takes a year or so.

I guess most people give up very easily.

So sure I appreciate your efforts very much but you should be aware of that some of the members here do see me as a "Propeller Head" which is as low status as you can get I guess.

I know I am confused but I certainly do my best to get what people tells me but when the brain fails it fails.

I do most things totally manually due to I feel more secure then that the scripts don't screw things up.

The member with the user name I never remember rc.... he is very good at describing step for step what to do

And Shinobar are also very good at explaining things so without them I would not ha much luck.

So go for it but remember that I am at the lowest rank here so not good reputation if you refer to me

[ICPUG]

Don't agree with suggestion moB.

As I understand it XP Mode is only available in the Windows 7 Pro versions or Ultimate. The majority of PCs for domestic use are being sold with Windows 7 Home Premium, which does not have XP Mode. So, targetting XP only would leave these users high and dry. Despite they being in a minority, they are still important!

[moB]

[
So go for it but remember that I am at the lowest rank here so not good reputation if you refer to me

If I had a reputation to worry about, but all I care is that I am free to swim as I please.

Ha det s

[moB]

Don't agree with suggestion moB.

As I understand it XP Mode is only available in the Windows 7 Pro versions or Ultimate. The majority of PCs for domestic use are being sold with Windows 7 Home Premium, which does not have XP Mode. So, targetting XP only would leave these users high and dry. Despite they being in a minority, they are still important!

Agreed. Lets not overlook or exclude anyone.

That's good information.

Thanks ICPUG!

[emil]

I have written some doc pages on the possibilities to get my Sage Live Puplet running.

http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/e ... tSteps.htm

Should be similar for most puppies . What do you think?

[shinobar]

I have written some doc pages on the possibilities to get my Sage Live Puplet running.

http://boxen.math.washington.edu/home/e ... tSteps.htm

Should be similar for most puppies . What do you think?

Great!
But i do not recommend the Universal Installer.
The Sage Live has the 'Frugal Installer'.
http://shino.pos.to/linux/lupq/features.html#install

[emil]

Hi shinobar,

yes probably it is better to mention the Frugal Installer. Though I will keep the section on Universal Installer, because it has options for USB, CD.
Actually there are 6 Menu entries in the Menu/configuration/Installing utilities I will probably have to give a short explanation of each of those.

This is one of the reasons I believe it still can be very difficult to get the first puppy linux running. After you have installed 10 puplets it is easy. But before it can be confusing.

Edit: May I use images about frugal installer from your homepage?

emil

[shinobar]

Actually there are 6 Menu entries in the Menu/configuration/Installing utilities ...<snip>...
This is one of the reasons I believe it still can be very difficult to get the first puppy linux running. After you have installed 10 puplets it is easy. But before it can be confusing.

Yes. Same thought.

Note the 'Frugal Installer' manages also USB.
As for the image on my web page, you can use it as you like with copying and/or linking.

Thanks.

[emil]

Note the 'Frugal Installer' manages also USB.

Hah, I am an ignorant prick!
Great news -
emil

[ICPUG]

Emil,

Just in case you don't know you can also look (and use) any of the info at Lin'N'Win at

http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwin/contents.htm

where details of the frugal install with Windows can be found. (Windows 7 coming).

Some people don't like the detail and prefer to blindly follow some app that has been created for them - like your Sage Live exe file. I have no problem with that but if you want to know how it works ...

[emil]

ICPUG,
thanks for the pointer!

I don't want to give the impression I am the uber-duber installation expert here. The actual work was done by others, you, noryb009, shinobar, Mr. Kauler etc, etc.. But, I am still so amazed, about whats possible and how easy it is in principle - because 14 months ago I never had imagined that I ever become so interested in handling computers again. And have that much fun.

In fact detailed information is important, but for most people shortcuts sell. Even I feel my short explanations on the quickly hacked together sagelive page are to lenghty. I aim at max concise form.

Right now I have to cut back my time devoted to the project (christmas is comming, need to spend some time with my family, need to earn some money too, and last b.n.least currently I study virtual machines ). So I will get the links it in, but I might need some time.
Anyways many thanks for your valueable, friendly feedback and patient testing (hope I sometimes learn how to post working prototypes and give the right links).

Emil