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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Wishing for a TRUE clean slate Puppy 5.1.?
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aragon

Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Posts: 1698
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 03:55    Post_subject:  

there are many barebones that should be compatible with your p3 ...

4.21: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=43924
4.21 Retro: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=46326
FatFree 3.01: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=26445
WhiteFang: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy//viewtopic.php?t=32519

only if you need a 'cutting-edge'-version you will have to do it yourself.

aragon

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hillside


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 642
Location: Minnesota, USA. The frozen north.

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 08:17    Post_subject:  

#1. Everyone I know uses spreadsheets. I think we live in different worlds! Smile
#2. Puppy is tiny. There is no way this OS can be considered bloated in today's world. (strictly my opinion, but then, I like to think I'm always right Smile )
#3. Go back to Big Bass' post. Read his stuff. Look at his OS. It's very reduce-able. He's a miracle worker. You're going to like what he's done.
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1289
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 08:40    Post_subject:  

I think I understand Dragynn's need. However, I also think what we call a barebones may still be too bloated for him!

We are all different and have different needs. I just wish the Dragynn's of the world would also recognise those of us different from him, (using spreadsheets!), in the same way - i.e. tolerated!

It would be nice to have a basic barebones available with each released official puppy - but I don't see it happening.

If Big Bass's Puppy offering is not suitable then maybe Dragynn should look at Tiny Core Linux whose objectives seem better related to his needs than Puppy's seem to be.
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P123

Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 89
Location: Northern Ireland, UK

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:32    Post_subject: Browser Linux?  

The one thing about this thread that surprises me is the no one has suggested Browser Linux.

Not the latest versions using beta versions of Firefox, as it is difficult to get all my favourite extensions to work as it is a beta version.

Just add the pet files as the school pup team in Hungary (English version is available) did.

As for Tiny Core it is great if you want to build your system from the ground up as sneekylinux as shown in his videos.

What about Puppy Greyhound http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=33652 ?
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Dragynn

Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 10:45    Post_subject:  

Now i'm intolerant because i wish for an OS without a spreadsheet program?

wow.

I wish I had never bothered asking anything in this forum now.

"tolerated"??????

again, wow.

Look, I am offered a choice of browsers in 5.1.1, why couldn't the rest of the programs be the same way? That's all that i'm asking.

I like Puppy's interface/GUI and the way it works, forgive me wishing for that same useability in a version for those of us who prefer to make our own choices.

I don't need two font viewers for crying out loud, one will suffice, and in all truth I don't really need that one, I never change fonts unless i'm working in Photoshop and it has it's own font viewer.

Similarly, I don't need 3-4 file search utilities or 3 different text/word processors, 3 or more file download utilities, 2 torrent programs, 4 calculators, half a dozen media players and the friggin kitchen sink.

Look, I already said i'll do it myself, please quit beating a dead horse, I get it, some of the devs here like to shove as much crap as they possibly can into a distro just because 1. they can and they are proud of that fact, and 2. they personally use all that stuff and don't care about people who don't want it.

So I am already as far as having a version that will actually work in 256 again, my goal is to have it down to under 200 mb's total Ram taken up at idle when it's first loaded.

And i'm a tenacious b*****d let me tell you, so stop telling me I need to choose one of your prefab versions or go elsewhere, none of you have any idea who I am or what I need, and i'll do as I please, up to and including stripping the useless bloat out of what is otherwise an excellent system.

Some of you REALLY need to get out more and see what the world is actually like before you start making subjective all-inclusive judgements about what's right for other people.
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Jasper


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 1106
Location: England

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 12:06    Post_subject:  

Quote

Look, I am offered a choice of browsers in 5.1.1, why couldn't the rest of the programs be the same way? That's [all] that i'm asking.

End quote [brackets added]

Look, I bring to the scene an alert agile mind uncluttered by knowledge or ideas - the answer is they could've, but they aren't (or if you're posh and come from The Potteries "they anna").

The reason they anna is pretty obvious, at least to me.

I hope you will make your OS widely available when it is finalised.
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Dragynn

Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 12:54    Post_subject:  

Sir Jasper wrote:

I hope you will make your OS widely available when it is finalised.



Well I would, but according to all sources here, no one in the entire world would want or appreciate such.

Someone else mentioned Browserlinux, and I would have to second that as a wonderful choice, almost perfect for what I envision, runs about 60 mb's less of ram at beginning idle than 5.1.1, I downed the latest beta last night and it runs really well, got rid of FF and Chrome and loaded Iron from the repo and it ran even better. Very well done puplet, just needs a little more haircut, and some tweaks to be what i'd like to see.

Coopsurv's methodology is working well.

Woof continues to give me puplets lacking some functionality, though I did get the internet connected finally on my test machine with the forcedeth driver, just still no automatic detection, and it won't mount one of my partitions on the hard drive, the linux partition strangely enough, it sees the NTFS okay though I do get a warning that ntfs-3g won't work and it has to fallback to another way to do so.

Look, if all ya got to say is that my request is a dumb request, you might as well give it a rest, because it's not a dumb request, everyone I have spoken to that's NOT all wrapped up in their insular little distro-specific world, thinks it's a great idea and very reasonable, everyone I have shown Puppy Linux, think's it's great, but is a bit taken aback at all the menu choices, and even more taken aback when I tell them they can't get rid of any of them. Barry Kauler even posted a link to a review on his blog one day, where the reviewer said something to the same effect, and BK further said that though it didn't bother him, that it might be something to consider.

So open your minds, this is not a ridiculous request in the least, it's very simple and sensible. And i've already said that i'll do it myself, so feel free to go try to enforce your will on other folks, i'm not big on bending a knee.
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Dragynn

Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 13:08    Post_subject:  

hillside wrote:

#2. Puppy is tiny. There is no way this OS can be considered bloated in today's world. (strictly my opinion, but then, I like to think I'm always right .


No, SliTaz is tiny, 30 mb iso, around 145 fully loaded, and it's fully functional.
Puppy is 130 mb, and over 300 fully loaded.

Not asking for SliTaz redux, just want a slimmer Puppy that I decide what is pre-loaded software, again, this is NOT a silly request, this is one of the big reasons people build their own computers instead of buying an HP or other brand, it's not because it's cheaper, because it's not, it's because if they build their own, then they can just load the OS and programs they want, and not have to spend hours and hours rooting out junk they don't want.

Puppy loads in ram, that is it's strength and where all the speed comes from and is the recommended way to use it. Every program that comes with it that I don't need, squats in my ram, taking up memory that I could use elsewhere, like say to run the programs I DO use. Why is that so hard to understand? Why is that such a foreign and outrageous concept to some people here? I'm not getting that attitude at all, seems pretty intuitive to me given the nature and concept of this OS.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 14:20    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Puppy loads in ram, that is it's strength and where all the speed comes from and is the recommended way to use it.

Every program that comes with it that I don't need, squats in my ram, taking up memory that I could use elsewhere, like say to run the programs I DO use.

Why is that so hard to understand? Why is that such a foreign and outrageous concept to some people here?

I'm not getting that attitude at all, seems pretty intuitive to me given the nature and concept of this OS.


I think both ideas are very good. I fully support your view on a Linux distro.

I've looked for such small programs too since 2008 or so.

So I fully understand your needs and agree.

But I can see the merit in the Puppy approach too. To have a Swiss Army Knife distro that can do most if not all of what a newbie want.

I think both approaches should be encouraged.

But within the Puppy community at the moment it seems more people agree with those that want Puppy to be like they are used to and you and me and a few others see much merit in something that allow the user to load and try out and then discard all programs they don't need. and that that make it thinner and thinner so it can work good in very little RAM.

One of my Desktops from 2003 has only 256 MB so that don't work well with Streaming videos from our local TV station.

Even on my PB Laptop with 500MB it crash almost daily when I open too many tabs with Daily News articles with much Flash content.

I use Noscript and only open what is needed and still it crash now and then. So one need an OS that has as few programs going as possible.

But I love Puppy. Life would be very complicated if I had to use Ubuntu or Mint. Much steeper learning curve to get things going.

Still I love your approach too. But I am the resident Nooby so I have no say in such matters. The Devs do what they love to do and if they don't feel for it then they don't do it.

So if you have the knowledge please share when you have succeeded to describe how you managed to get a really small Linux with the modularity and choice that both of us long for.

Much appreciated if such come forth in near future.

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hillside


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 642
Location: Minnesota, USA. The frozen north.

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 14:25    Post_subject:  

Dragynn,

I'm sorry if my comment to your thread seemed rude. I certainly didn't mean it that way. Good luck with your project.
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Dragynn

Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 17:27    Post_subject:  

hillside wrote:
Dragynn,

I'm sorry if my comment to your thread seemed rude. I certainly didn't mean it that way. Good luck with your project.


No need at all, your comments were anything but rude, i'm sorry if it seemed like I was implying that you were, you were actually very gracious, thank you for replying.

I can be....very vehement at times. One of my many failings i'm sure.

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Dragynn

Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed 22 Sep 2010, 17:44    Post_subject:  

Nooby, the Turbodog Xtreme version runs really light, the interface is just very minimal, but you can turn the conventional desktop icons back on I have found, just have to check through the menus.

SliTaz is probably the way to go for now on 256-or-less machines, it's what i've been running on my old PIII with 512, and it's a real joy on that machine, has a fair amount of software available too (just no Iron browser yet, lol), doesn't have anything close to as many choices as what is possible with Puppy though, you can "cook" your own package supposedly from a deb tar.gz, but like a lot of utilities i've found in these small distros, doesn't work so far and no walkthroughs for us noobs.

It runs around 145 mb's in total use at idle on my machine when I first fire it up, less after I pull out some stuff I don't need, which is also one of the nice features, you still can't edit the ISO obviously, but the package manager WILL let you delete packages that are pre-installed that you don't want, and you can persist the changes via a save file.

I should note that i'm using the 3.0 Xvesa version, which makes for less bloat to start with using xvesa exclusively, and I never have to ctrl-alt-backspace to the Xorgwizard, it just fires right up on any computer pretty much.

This is another choice I would wish for in Puppy, if the machine is new enough and has enough ram, I always use Nvidia or Ati drivers anyway, and if it's old, I stick with vesa or Xvesa, I never use Xorg, hardly ever works anyway from what i've seen, 1 machine out of 5 at my house.

Good luck and thanks for your comments, i'll let you know if I ever figure out how to slim this thing down without stripping functionality, trying to work my way through dependency lists right now, and figure out why it's not mounting linux partitions and auto-applying the correct modem driver on my Woof-cooks. Coopsurv's method works like a charm for manually removing files, only problem is, some packages install a LOT of files in a LOT of places, hard to find them all and also figure out what libs they installed that you don't need.

*edit* Forgot to mention, since you are using a desktop with 256, that SliTaz does offer an easy easy full install option, I tried it just for kicks on my old laptop and it worked perfectly from the get-go, you lose the all out speed you get from running it totally in ram obviously, but your ram footprint at idle drops down to a ridiculously small number, I think mine was using like 25 mb's at idle.

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Dragynn

Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Mon 27 Sep 2010, 18:54    Post_subject:  

A big thank you to "Mr." martin over in another thread, as I told him, Puppy DOES have Samba, though just the client, and in truth I didn't know what it was, thought maybe it was a building block. His ranting caused me to spend a few minutes reading wikipedia, and if I hadn't, I wouldn't have known the truth about this steaming heap of detritus, that was at one time squatting on my ram and taking up valuable space. Which brings me to another small feature that I really like about Puppy:

You don't have to type "sudo" to delete stuff.

How big of an iso is six going to be? 150mb? 200? yikes. Shocked Confused Rolling Eyes

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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1289
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue 28 Sep 2010, 08:18    Post_subject:  

Dragynn,

I've just realised that no one has pointed you too pUPnGO here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=51478

One option for this does not even have a GUI and at 6-7MB should suit you down to the ground.

Version six ISO size? They haven't decided on a roadmap yet so who knows (should it ever appear of course).
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Dragynn

Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue 28 Sep 2010, 14:16    Post_subject:  

ICPUG wrote:
Dragynn,

I've just realised that no one has pointed you too pUPnGO here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=51478

One option for this does not even have a GUI and at 6-7MB should suit you down to the ground.

Version six ISO size? They haven't decided on a roadmap yet so who knows (should it ever appear of course).


That's EXACTLY what I was looking for! I think anyway....the "desktop" version with full drivers and Xvesa/JWM sounds like what I want, but Mediafire is saying it doesn't have any servers available with the requested info on them currently....lol...i'll try again later, thanks BIG-TIME for the heads-up, Smile

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