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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 997
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Mon 10 May 2010, 01:41    Post subject:  

I wonder if we should start working on the idea, something like Linus and his team seem to do, and work with odd numbers being "development / test / play" versions and even numbers being "for public release" versions.

That is if I understand how he goes about it.

scsijon
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Mon 10 May 2010, 05:36    Post subject:  

scsijon wrote:
I wonder if we should start working on the idea, something like Linus and his team seem to do, and work with odd numbers being "development / test / play" versions and even numbers being "for public release" versions.

That is if I understand how he goes about it.

Barry started using even numbers for official releases and odd numbers for community versions, but that only lasted from 2.14 (official), 2.15CE (community), 2.16 (official) through to 2.17 (oops, official too), when he forgot about the numbering anyway.

There is still a vestige of the odd/even system in Barry's numbering of major versions; 2.x and 4.x are mainstream, 1.x, 3.x and 5.x are innovations with connections to other distributions like Vector (1.x), Slackware (3.x), Ubuntu / Debian (5.x).

Frankly I believe the sort of organisation that dictates a fixed release numbering scheme is anathema to Barry. With the community in charge, though, it may be worth resurrecting some "rules" but if the devs or the majority don't want to follow them, then that's that. Who's in charge of the community effort these days? Question Question Question Question Question

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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Mon 10 May 2010, 09:40    Post subject:  

WhoDo wrote:
Who's in charge of the community effort these days? Question Question Question Question Question


In general the people that do the work make the decisions.
http://www.communitywiki.org/en/DoOcracy
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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Mon 10 May 2010, 09:57    Post subject:  

WhoDo wrote:
Frankly I believe the sort of organisation that dictates a fixed release numbering scheme is anathema to Barry. With the community in charge, though, it may be worth resurrecting some "rules" but if the devs or the majority don't want to follow them, then that's that. Who's in charge of the community effort these days? Question Question Question Question Question


Well same subject different day...
Here's a thought:
Let the devs and Barry do as they please. No structure, no organization, they work on what they want to work on, and call it whatever the heck they want to call it.
All the community needs really, is somebody to organize it for them, or for users, however you want to look at it. Puppies can be labeled after the fact with whatever number system works best AND the cute name the devs come up with, and put into the appropriate category.
Example:
"Official-Stable and Supported", Old Machines, Bleeding Edge....(see my old posts heh). Each category can have a corresponding number to indicate where it belongs.
Puppy 6.5.0 (AgilityPup) (I made this up so don't all jump on me saying no such thing or I labeled it incorrectly Razz )
This way everybody is happy, no pressure on devs, and we will have a more cohesive accounting of what we have and what it does. It would make it a lot easier to know what we have, what is being worked on, and what is still needed if anybody is interested in working on that.
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Mon 10 May 2010, 10:55    Post subject:  


Quote:
In general the people that do the work make the decisions.


Exactly so.
No restrictions for developers.
For the sake of future Puppy users, at the moment
trapped by MS or other restrictions
we can suggest various possibilities.
A lot of Puppy users look on but can make a great contribution testing
or adding to the wiki
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/HomePage

Free working major software (big in Quickpet)
will be something to develop and enhance
and I get the impression we have compilers and
testers interested in promoting the Quickpet system further . . .
Smile
Woof gets better
Other Puppy versions for netbooks, Macs,
and so on.

Free
Your Puppy

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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Mon 10 May 2010, 12:04    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:

All the community needs really, is somebody to organize it for them, or for users, however you want to look at it. Puppies can be labeled after the fact with whatever number system works best AND the cute name the devs come up with, and put into the appropriate category.


All this potential organizer would have to do is show up and start organizing. No one's going to give you permission - you gain acceptance by offering something of value.

Of course, figuring out what will be perceived as valuable is the hard part.
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Mon 10 May 2010, 19:18    Post subject: contribution  

If the person has done valuable contribution already, s/he has a good chance of attracting followers, and possibly a large part of the community later.

I guess what's critical is grace when the questions about leadership begin coming in. The way out seems to be just sticking to the project and pushing ahead.

Pioneering work in a niche is already a test of leadership, and what remains to be done is only that of enlarging the project to encompass a general public release. (At the moment, only playdayz is moving in this direction* with Lucid Puppy, while ttuuxxx has done his homework silently with 214x. )

* "Compatibility with Ubuntu packages" may still be regarded as a niche project. What would be regarded as a real general public release is a CE project.

The pattern now seems to be that there are simultaneous niches being developed:

- bleeding edge development with Quirky
- compatibility with a major distro with LuPup (also SlaxerPup, etc)
- 64-bit capability with Fatdog64
- updated official versions (214x, 432)
- eeePC niche with puppeee

Whoever wants to do a general public release would just have to pick the best parts from all these developments and present a build that s/he and the community will support. S/he should be ready to commit time for this in the next 3-6 months.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Tue 11 May 2010, 06:23    Post subject:  

jemimah wrote:
WhoDo wrote:
Who's in charge of the community effort these days? Question Question Question Question Question


In general the people that do the work make the decisions.
http://www.communitywiki.org/en/DoOcracy

Yes, it was a rhetorical question. See my sig. Razz

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Tue 11 May 2010, 06:34    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
Here's a thought:
Let the devs and Barry do as they please. No structure, no organization, they work on what they want to work on, and call it whatever the heck they want to call it.

Status quo then ... Wink
shariebeth wrote:
All the community needs really, is somebody to organize it for them, or for users, however you want to look at it. Puppies can be labeled after the fact with whatever number system works best AND the cute name the devs come up with, and put into the appropriate category.
Example:
"Official-Stable and Supported", Old Machines, Bleeding Edge....(see my old posts heh). Each category can have a corresponding number to indicate where it belongs.
Puppy 6.5.0 (AgilityPup) (I made this up so don't all jump on me saying no such thing or I labeled it incorrectly Razz )
This way everybody is happy, no pressure on devs, and we will have a more cohesive accounting of what we have and what it does. It would make it a lot easier to know what we have, what is being worked on, and what is still needed if anybody is interested in working on that.

The difficulty here is that the devs already have a numbering system, and that's what appears when you query you Puppy about which version it is. It's built in to the version via the initrd.gz file and other things depend on it such as scripts. A second number system on top of that would only add confusion IMHO.

If the community were to say to the devs ..."come to us when you decide to build a new version, puplet, etc and we'll assign you a number for your project", that might work, provided the devs were happy with that process. A version registry system if you will, just like getting IP addresses for the Internet. Once started, though, it will require maintenance and management and Barry and the devs are unlikely to volunteer for that. The Do-ocracy must own the task and not take it personally if no-one wants to use the system. Just ask Gecko who tried to have a formal bug reporting and management system ... oh, sorry, you can't because he gave up in disgust and took his enthusiasm elsewhere. Rolling Eyes

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2635
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue 11 May 2010, 11:38    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
WhoDo wrote:
Frankly I believe the sort of organisation that dictates a fixed release numbering scheme is anathema to Barry. With the community in charge, though, it may be worth resurrecting some "rules" but if the devs or the majority don't want to follow them, then that's that. Who's in charge of the community effort these days? Question Question Question Question Question


Well same subject different day...
Here's a thought:
Let the devs and Barry do as they please.


I rather dislike the term "Let.." -- it sounds as if we "permit" them to do this...

Yes, we "let" them do as they please, as we have absolutely no control over them. We neither own them, nor command them...

"Let" implies that these authors, contributors and enthusiasts have a duty to us... They do NOT have a duty to us... Out of the goodness of their hearts, they assist us in solving problems, and supporting hardware.

I suspect, however, that offers of good beer or Scotch might allow you to bribe some of them to work on your desired goals... Wink

Quote:
No structure, no organization, they work on what they want to work on, and call it whatever the heck they want to call it.


Well, you cannot "call it what you want", without limitations. The name "Puppy" belongs to Barry -- and those who he permits to use the name (e.g. ttuuxxx's pending "Puppy 4.3.2"). It would be very impolite, if not unlawful, to start declaring that _your_ version of "Puppy" is the "True One".

However, Barry does permit his work to be used in any fashion you wish, so there is nothing to prevent you from creating "ShariebethPup". If you create a Puplet, feel free to name/number it what you will (as long as the name isn't taken).

For me, while I do know a fair amount about Linux, I am far from an expert -- nowhere near the class of the major contributors found here -- and I am content to let them choose the direction and goals. I follow the project, contribute where I can, and use the creation -- as it is a benefit to me. If it one day ceases to be a benefit, I am likewise free to discontinue using it.

We may have suggestions and wishes, but ultimately we have no control over the project(s), unless we become major contributors (see "DoOcracy") -- but we still ultimately only have control over ourselves.

Think of the whole thing as anarchy (which means "a lack of government"). The contributors travel in the same approximate direction, when it is convenient for them, and then go their own way when "it" (e.g. the "Puppy" project) ceases to be conducive to their own wishes, goals and desires. That is as it should be.

I have said this before, and say it again: thank you authors, contributors and enthusiasts!

Addendum: Shall I give a partial list of our HEROES?

http://bkhome.org/blog/
http://www.puppylinux.ca/tpp/index.php
http://puppylinux.ca/members/

(Contributors: If I didn't list you, I apologize -- I merely wanted to make a point about the size of the community and the number of contributors)
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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue 11 May 2010, 12:49    Post subject:  

A few of you are getting much too hung up on nitpicking at the semantics rather than addressing the obvious issues. I of course do not mean "let them" in the literal permissive interpretation which implies anyone has that right. Do you REALLY think that's what was meant or was that a "good" way to derail the topic and insult the participants once again? It's beating a dead horse to keep saying "we're free to use it or leave as we see fit and it will go on in chaos as it will blahblahblah". Everyone knows that, the idea was to move on past that point and look at ways to keep Puppy healthy and thriving if that is what the community wants.
(Obviously I do not have the talents the current batch of devs have or I would have been offering to participate myself in any developing or organizational attempts.)

Thank you anyway WhoDo for at least being willing to understand and discuss. Just for the record, I have found the previous topics over the years on this very same issue and it is interesting how closely the current one in these various threads mirror them, just different names really. *sighs* I don't feel I'm way off base, but I don't have the experience or following here to do a heck of a lot about it either. I guess I am just hoping somebody who does agrees and tries.
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Tue 11 May 2010, 13:10    Post subject:  

I think it's a natural human urge to try to come up with something more efficient than anarchy. If it weren't, the world would be a libertarian Utopia right now (or not so Utopian depending upon your perception of human nature, maybe a bit more like Escape from LA Wink ).

However, in the case of the puppy community, the only alternative to DoOcracy that can possibly work is dictatorship. And only if you can find a dictator that the majority of the developers deeply respect who also wants the job.

Hierarchical or democratic systems of management are guaranteed to fail due to the Dilbert principle.
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2635
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue 11 May 2010, 13:10    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
Everyone knows that, the idea was to move on past that point and look at ways to keep Puppy healthy and thriving if that is what the community wants.


http://distrowatch.com/

Puppy Linux is #9, over the last 12 months, in that list of the top 100 versions (and "only" #11 in the last 6 months).

Wiki has a page naming the "notable" Linux versions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions

Yep, there's Puppy in the list.

Those data are indicative that Puppy is what the community wants... As is the number of contributors and postings here on Murga.
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Wed 12 May 2010, 04:06    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
Just for the record, I have found the previous topics over the years on this very same issue and it is interesting how closely the current one in these various threads mirror them, just different names really. *sighs* I don't feel I'm way off base, but I don't have the experience or following here to do a heck of a lot about it either. I guess I am just hoping somebody who does agrees and tries.

I know the feeling. I've been a part of efforts to at least organise the stuff the devs don't want to bother about - documentation, directions, hosting, publicity, etc - without a whole lot of success. I approached it as a part of the Do-ocracy, too, which is why I paid for and hosted puppylinux.org for a while, and supported the site developer to make it a usable thing.

Any efforts to produce organisation on the development side seem doomed to failure, by virtue of the original Puppy ethos outlined by Barry - chaos driven by fun to produce innovation.

Efforts to deliver organisation on the community side have largely depended on the actions of a few committed individuals of the Do-ocracy; Lobster with the wiki, Raffy with the current web site, various sub-forum denizens for the languages projects, etc. I tried it with the look-and-feel aspect, first by creating the EZpup interface add-on, then by starting the theme exchanges for JWM and Icewm and the Dingo icon themes exchange. I also drove two community editions; 2.15CE and 4.2x - the latter becoming the first official Puppy release without Barry as lead developer. I won't go into why I no longer participate in such efforts but suffice it to say that some people (not lumping you in here, shariebeth) feel they are owed delivery of their own expectations by the developer side of the equation, and that simply can't happen.

I had a good friend (an ex-U.S. marine Lieutenant and now pastor in the Episcopal church) who always reminded me that "money follows ideas, not the other way around". I guess what I'm saying, shariebeth, is that if the "idea" is good enough the "money" (read "support") will follow. It's been my experience that only happens when the ideas are properly developed rather than just tossed in for consideration (not suggesting that's the case here, either).

If you are passionate enough about the organisation aspect of Puppy community led development, you could start by developing your own ideas about how it would work and still fit in with the Puppy ethos, and then make them available for comment in a forum poll. Just my 2c.

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10518
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 12 May 2010, 05:14    Post subject:  

RetroTechGuy wrote:
shariebeth wrote:
Everyone knows that, the idea was to move on past that point and look at ways to keep Puppy healthy and thriving if that is what the community wants.


http://distrowatch.com/

Puppy Linux is #9, over the last 12 months, in that list of the top 100 versions (and "only" #11 in the last 6 months).

Wiki has a page naming the "notable" Linux versions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions

Yep, there's Puppy in the list.

Those data are indicative that Puppy is what the community wants... As is the number of contributors and postings here on Murga.


they say that
Quote:
Puppy Linux A mini distribution which runs well under low-end PCs - even under 32 MB RAM. Includes Slackware 12 support (since version 3).


I've been using Puppy since 2008 and never thought of it as having Slackware 12 support

How is that apparent? Does the Puppy Package Manager go to Slackware 12 to find the packages? No puppy have their own servers and mirrors?
Sol where does the Slackware 12 support come in?

Edit

Lobster write a wise comment on puppy still too geeky following this post

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Last edited by nooby on Wed 12 May 2010, 07:00; edited 1 time in total
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