Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Wed 26 Nov 2014, 20:33
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Puppy 5.1 to 6
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
Page 9 of 11 Posts_count   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, ..., 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Next
Author Message
WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 03:52    Post_subject: Re: Puppy 6 proposal  

shariebeth wrote:
Ehhhm sounds like Arch Linux Wink

Or Choicepup or Slax. All have gone that core + applications choice route.

I think Lucid Puppy is pretty much able to be built that way too. It's only a matter of the included options. Playdayz left the main browser out to give users a choice and there's no reason why Quickpet can't be expanded to give function to scsijon's idea.

The point is that there are already a number of options to explore, including one or two in the Puppy fold. No need to reinvent the wheel, eh? Wink

_________________
Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't!
SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 3393
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 04:27    Post_subject:  

sharibeth,
I agree to a point.
Make a bare-bones Puppy, but then install all the applications from PET packages and from there, make the final ISO.
That way, the ISO/ Puppy would come with it's normal applications, but they could be uninstalled with Puppy Package manager and replaced with ones of ones choosing.
Of course some applications rely on others being there for dependencies. So it would be possible to break Puppy.

Mind you, it is just a thought.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 07:25    Post_subject:  

It seems to me that it is better to clean up what we already have and make sure somebody is around to support it and fix it consistently and reliably than keep adding new versions to the mix that are half baked.
At least at this point. Right now there is chaos, devs disappear for any number of reasons, and users are having to hop from puppy to puppy trying to find one that works. Not the best scenario.

Better to have a few well working, well labeled, well documented, and well supported Puppies (that the public is getting immediate access to) than 50 problems that nobody is around or able to support or fix.

And THAT is what should be discussed and settled at the meetings Sunday.

Note: as raffy said early, the "givens" in this post are pretty much the same. This is not directed at the creative devs doing their thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11782
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 08:18    Post_subject:  

Lobster wrote:
# Extremely friendly for Linux newbies.
# Will just work, no hassles.


These two are about usability
and I feel Micks (01micko) efforts with Quickpet
in Lucid illustrate this well
I can see this developing well into 5.1
and hopefully beyond

Both my sisters are forced into using Puppy
but find it awkward and geeky.
They would rather be using Windows.

How can we make it more usable
for our demanding potential end users?
And in fact all is there already, but scattered.
- the 440CE with it's control center
- the stardust, now DuDe, development
- Lucid has an interesting development with the quickpet.
- dpup 486 b4 was going into a good direction.
- dejans555's kdpup (based on dpup 486 b4). Yes it's huge, but it has it all. Pupy app's and KDE ones. Also, for me, the best implementation to configure and maintain the system as you want in a user-friendly way. I think Windows users will feel very comfortable with it.

I didn't test all puppies/derivatives, so there may be other ones.

Also I want to repeat what has been said already before by people. Make first the existing ones perfect. Get rid of all the bugs. This isn't case yet. I see the same bugs reported over and over again when a new release is out. And then only start with a new one.

Also I fear incompatibility between debian, ubuntu, etc.. applications. Not all users realize that an app compiled in one has problems/doesn't run in other environments.

_________________
Time savers:
Find packages in a snap and install using Puppy Package Manager (Menu).
Consult Wikka
Use peppyy's puppysearch
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 10:03    Post_subject:  

If a dev takes the time to make it completely stable, the most vocal users complain that the software is out of date, the libraries are old, progress isn't being made fast enough, and declare the puplet is "rotten to the core," and falling on Distrowatch. It doesn't run on the latest hardware, or have the latest whiz-bang features, and we're just plain bored with it - let's move on to the bleeding edge.

The devs lose either way, but ultimately stability comes from as much from the dedication and quality of the beta testers as the developers.

It's a lot to ask of any individual developer to know about all the bug fixes, and new features that come out in the entire puppy community. Developing a puplet, and staying current with events in the forums, and knowing what the other developers are up to is a full time job - and most of us already have a full time job. Testers can help a lot just by helping the devs stay informed of progress and bug fixes on other puplets.

Devs are just users will skills. We build the puplets that we want to create, add the features we're interested in, and support them until it's just too much of a drain on personal resources, or it gets too boring to go on. Asking more than that is counter productive.

If we can get a few people together that want to work on the same project, manage to avoid toxic personality conflicts, and agree on a single vision, it's possible to make progress faster and work more effectively. But that's a big if.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 10:06    Post_subject:  

Exactly WhoDo and Béèm:
We have many puppies to choose from. That is great. But: users including current puppy users, don't know what all of the options are, what they do, if they are suitable for them, or if they are even supported...

We need to first and foremost clearly identify and make this information the first thing all users see, new and current:

--1. Puppy name clearly identified. None of this 4.0 or 5.0 applying to four totally different offshoots. Even devs had no idea who was refering to what.
--2. What version(s) will be the one that the user finds when he searches for Puppy Linux in a search engine and gets the "Download Here" button and he clicks it? This version or very small amount of versions, should be clean, supported, the dev SHOULD be around unless it is squeaky clean bug free guaranteed. It also should epitomize what Puppy is about and be a general all purpose Puppy to make the new user get in the door and be happy, not frustrated.
--3. Available support offered for each version. Is the dev here and active and willing to answer questions and fix bugs? Or is it just forum user support? Or is the user on their own?
--4. What does each version offer? Why might a user want a particular version and why might he/she not?
--5. Where is the documentation? How can a user rtfm if there IS no manual? It is hard work to search forums, just to get directed to another link, which then links you to a wiki article and THAT has more forum links and different wiki links. It's not easy, and while users should be willing to rtfm, it would be nice if we had something for them to read that doesn't stress them out more than they already are. I think if we have a better tree as raffy pointed out, it would be easier to do this. Right now everything is just scattered as it fell, including the puppies themselves.

I'll direct this to Jemimah who posted while I did: I guess what I have been trying to say, is somebody or group of somebodies who are NOT "devs" but still very knowledgeable and active, needs to be a Puppy Manager of sorts. Not a dev manager, I agree with your comment that devs should do what they want as they want at their interest and whim. That is what it should be all about. Fun, creativity, and usefulness as each dev sees fit. But a lot of puppies get lost in the shuffle for all of the above reasons.

Another thought, I really hope somebody asks the great helpers in this forum to be at this meeting, without them we would lose a LOT of puppy users. I am talking about people like rjbrewer, rcrsn51, etc. They are the backbone of support who's opinions should be considered important.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 10:46    Post_subject:  

You know what?

I just try to fix stuff, and, if I can, make stuff. Mostly for me.

Pretty selfish eh?

So be it!

Cheers Mr. Green

_________________
Woof Mailing List | keep the faith Cool |
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
rjbrewer


Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 4422
Location: merriam, kansas

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 11:11    Post_subject:  

01micko wrote:
You know what?

I just try to fix stuff, and, if I can, make stuff. Mostly for me.

Pretty selfish eh?

So be it!

Cheers Mr. Green


Selfish? Hardly.

Only if you denied others the "fruits of your labors".

_________________

Inspiron 700m, Pent.M 1.6Ghz, 1Gb ram.
Msi Wind U100, N270 1.6>2.0Ghz, 1.5Gb ram.
Eeepc 8g 701, 900Mhz, 1Gb ram.
Full installs

Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
big_bass

Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 1747

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 12:52    Post_subject:  

Quote:
If a dev takes the time to make it completely stable, the most vocal users complain that the software is out of date, the libraries are old, progress isn't being made fast enough, and declare the puplet is "rotten to the core," and falling on Distrowatch. It doesn't run on the latest hardware, or have the latest whiz-bang features, and we're just plain bored with it - let's move on to the bleeding edge.

The devs lose either way, but ultimately stability comes from as much from the dedication and quality of the beta testers as the developers.


you must be very careful
if you decide to take the dreaded big step to not follow so closely as to actually step out of the shadow
of whatever the latest new thing being officially developed

because if you spend months sorting things out
and get familiar with everything as in my example I built slaxer pup before there was a woof build system to use (think about that for a moment )

you will be out casted into the puppy fire pit without exceptions how popular it becomes or not
so if you need a flame proof suit I have a few extras
and a big pitcher of ice tea

I am going to continue to add in support whatever occurs
and offer help to anyone who needs it
but thats my view from the dev end of things

and I still thank Mr. Barry Kauler for making puppy
even though I don't follow the cutting edge


the best approach is being able to add new features
and share them (this is linux )

Joe

_________________
debian wheezy ,linux mint, slackware I use them all and they all have good points
Mint would be best for general users though

Edited_times_total
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 13:11    Post_subject:  

Here are some of my simple, basic requests for the new official version:

1. It should work for everyone, right out of the box.
2. It should not involve any learning curve at all... definitely no reading, etc.
3. There shouldn't be any bugs
4. All versions of everything should be the latest and greatest.
5. The final version should be small, with no bloat.
6. Everyone's hardware should work without issue.
7. A beautiful desktop should be included that everyone agrees is the best.
8. Oh...please use Foxit Reader, of course, since I've found that works better than ePDF viewer, so is worth the extra meg. I'm positive everyone would agree. Also, the full version of vim....Firefox works better than Opera, so no need for Opera option....Retrovol needs the full window on the tray by default, so it works with headphone and the mike...
9. These are just the obvious, basics, of course, which everyone will immediately agree on. When will the final version be out?

Edit: Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Wed 26 May 2010, 14:12    Post_subject:  

shariebeth wrote:

I'll direct this to Jemimah who posted while I did: I guess what I have been trying to say, is somebody or group of somebodies who are NOT "devs" but still very knowledgeable and active, needs to be a Puppy Manager of sorts. Not a dev manager, I agree with your comment that devs should do what they want as they want at their interest and whim. That is what it should be all about. Fun, creativity, and usefulness as each dev sees fit. But a lot of puppies get lost in the shuffle for all of the above reasons.


This is difficult, because to be successful, this potential manager needs to have a lot of geek-cred to gain the respect of the developers, and to understand what's actually going on. Plus they'd need to have above average people skills and charisma to deal with the social engineering aspects of the job, and they need to be detail-oriented enough to not mind the clerical aspects of the job. Not only are these thee traits rarely found in the same person, but such a person is probably going to end up wanting to be a developer - not a manager.

It should be possible to put together a team that between them have the geek-cred, the charisma, and the accounting skills, but you have to find people who can communicate effortlessly or there's just too much overhead.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Thu 27 May 2010, 07:28    Post_subject:  

8-bit wrote:
sharibeth,
I agree to a point.
Make a bare-bones Puppy, but then install all the applications from PET packages and from there, make the final ISO.
That way, the ISO/ Puppy would come with it's normal applications, but they could be uninstalled with Puppy Package manager and replaced with ones of ones choosing.
Of course some applications rely on others being there for dependencies. So it would be possible to break Puppy.

Mind you, it is just a thought.



thank you 8bit & sharibeth,

I do like that thought though, it would cover the idea of the structure I am trying to get across.

standard cd for new and happy to work with users;
user modified version with unwanted "bumf" removed for later when you have worked out what you actually want.

scsijon
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1806

PostPosted: Thu 27 May 2010, 08:54    Post_subject:  

I'm new to puppy (and linux) but I believe that this is a really interesting discussion though I would think that may have been done before in other forums and distros.

I think that at the end of the day Linux development follows the "scratch an itch" approach, your itch. So is up to the actual developers to do whatever they want. All the rest can do is to tingle them hopping for a scratch "at the right place", but not much more. Wink

I think that the major issue is to decide what puppy is/will be. So far is whatever BK wants it to be. But what are the fundamental traits that make it a puppy. In development terms (small, fast, suitable for old/new hardware, user friendly etc does not qualify). That runs in RAM? The layered file system? The stripped apps/libraries? BK's scripting? The gtk-based UI? all of the above? other?

Then there is the issue of what puppy is going to be for the end user. Stable or bleeding edge? For old hardware or for 8-core computers? Should it be an OS that mostly runs from a CD/USB in RAM or as full HD install. Can all of the above be achieved in a 100-150MB OS or pupplets is the only way to go? Finally, is there going to be only a central approved repository of pets or the forum will remain a major source of pets?

I would be surprised if more that 3 people could agree in any given set of answers on these Very Happy . However the Lupu/quickpet is probably a good paradigm that could be coupled (metaphorically) with Slackware's hardware-detection abilities and Gentoo's hardware-specific installation, and get extended into a "remaster on first boot" system. Exclamation

Eg a minimal system is booted (available in "old" and "new" kernel versions) that basically should be able to detect the hardware, run a VESA/TinyX/fbdev display driver and LAN-connect to the internet. Then hardware drivers can be downloaded as needed and applications can be downloaded on user demand or pre-configured blobs. Then the custom puppy can be "remastered" and saved to the indicated media for reboot.
The LAN connection could be replaced by a fairly bigger initial download that would include most of the commonly used drivers/apps and used in areas without a LAN connection.

Idea See it like a "woof build system" that will run of the top of the minimal system with input from the hardware detection and the user preferences and re-master puppy of the fly Idea .

This approach allows developers to work in their area of expertise or preference without being forced to remaster and maintain a pupplet. Would allow both stable and bleeding edge pets to co-exist and leave it to the final user to decide which way to go. Would allow 486 and 8-cores to be supported (probably through different kernels). Would allow puppy to run as OS-on-a-stick or a server etc.
It would also probably produce smaller and probably faster puppies without the extra baggage for other hardware or the 5 calculators Very Happy
However, (besides possible insurmountable technical difficulties) there is the ease-of-use and out-of-the-box experience, that will suffer from such an approach. But nobody stops anyone in developing pupplets... if anything will make it even easier!
On the other hand no-matter what people say, "linux newbe" is still an oxymoron. You either get comfortable with the command line or you get out of linux fast... Cool

I'm clearly not claiming that I have the solution for the issues at hand, all I'm saying is that to accommodate all these contradicting needs/views/priorities and bring people to work together you need a highly customizable OS that will fulfill both developer and user priorities/needs.

Of course the planets could align correctly and a significant number of developers or even all, agree on a given puppy. It is possible I just do not think is vary likely (and this is NOT an accusation to any extend).

Just my 2 (newbe) cents.

_________________
Kids all over the world go around with an XO laptop. They deserve one puppy (or many) too Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
big_bass

Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 1747

PostPosted: Thu 27 May 2010, 09:18    Post_subject:  

Quote:
sharibeth,
I agree to a point.
Make a bare-bones Puppy, but then install all the applications from PET packages and from there, make the final ISO.
That way, the ISO/ Puppy would come with it's normal applications, but they could be uninstalled with Puppy Package manager and replaced with ones of ones choosing.
Of course some applications rely on others being there for dependencies. So it would be possible to break Puppy.

Mind you, it is just a thought.


check the date when I built this
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=143265
the sixth post on that thread I explained what was done

and I dont plan to use that one I also built a working 2.13 ,2.16 ,3,.0 3.01 and two retros using unleashed and I still have saved the original builds in the unleashed form with all packages Very Happy


I suggest an idea a mini based iso what raffy has always worked toward for the latest and older mini computers that are already out and coming out sort of a best of both worlds

whereas if it runs well on the small and older computers it flies on the new computers

based on 2.16 packages that will all be updated a new kernel and a retro kernel and be able to be compatible with slitaz and slackware 13 as an extra advantage I already worked out slackware 13 and re wrote the package management in Xdialog and added features such as dependency checking ( and slitaz I have working experimentally just needs fine tunning
but that is debian based for the debian users here )


I could compile the modern kernel and set that up
there are some special needs for more support that will need to be added in
custom packages are added in here also

then it goes to the paint and body shop for style

all I proposed was done while I was working toward building slaxer pup
but if there was a cleaned 2.16 with packages
there would be a known solid starting point

2.14 had many improvements built in the sad part it wasnt built with packages making it an add on to live cd build

I believe many of the advancement to 2.14
could be easily repackaged in to packages and added to 2.16
allowing future builds to be quick and clean


*and its much easier to use pkgtools to install an remove packages
and prepare the build for iso but you dont have to believe me slackware still uses it since 1993 because it still works there are enough real geeks there to back it up and support its use (I use my own build system the standard linux way which is very easy after having built with unleashed and tried woof during the alfa and beta stages )




if you tried slaxer pup you would discover I have not lost compatibility with puppy I only gained compatibility with slackwareś latest package format using txz, tlz ,tbz ,and tgz package formats making it linux compatible

BTW I hope nobody likes that idea or even considers it because I know it means a lot of work Laughing



Joe

_________________
debian wheezy ,linux mint, slackware I use them all and they all have good points
Mint would be best for general users though
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Thu 27 May 2010, 10:09    Post_subject:  

There's at least half a dozen small distros that make it easy for a regular user to both add and remove software. I'm honestly curious why the people who wish Puppy was more like TinyCore, AntiX, Slax, xPud, or Slitaz don't just switch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
Display_posts:   Sort by:   
Page 9 of 11 Posts_count   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, ..., 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Next
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Jump to:  

Rules_post_cannot
Rules_reply_cannot
Rules_edit_cannot
Rules_delete_cannot
Rules_vote_cannot
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1459s ][ Queries: 12 (0.0121s) ][ GZIP on ]