So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?

[Iguleder]

You seem to have caught the puppyite virus

Not funny at all.

Please don't contaminate the forum

Don't tell me what to do. I'm sure that many people share my point of view and still don't express their opinion. I'm not that kind of person, I say what I feel and do what I say.

I don't think you have any real idea what you are talking about here. Debian is a classic Top 10 distro that made its name simply be standing "in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies."

Totally wrong. Debian advances forward, but it's always lagging 2-3 years behind other distros. Don't tell me that Debian's user interface, initramfs, architecture-independent data, the install CD and everything is exactly the same for all these years.

Git was tried and discarded as not suiting Puppy's purposes but it has been replaced with a more Puppy-friendly system that is part of the Woof build system.

I don't like your sense of humor. It's so Puppy-friendly no one ever heard of it.

You have missed the original Puppy philosophy; it "just works" for most users.

Things can work wonderfully even under 100% FOSS distros.

Try OpenSUSE if you want a FOSS-only distribution, but be prepared for some things that work poorly at times or others that simply don't work at all.

Heard of the Novell-Microsoft patent deal?

That's good to know. Don't "cut off your nose to spite your face" is a common expression to those with English as their first language. I hope you will understand and appreciate that sentiment.

I won't, because that's not what I'm doing. I think you and some other people who replied should be ashamed for not being able to discuss this politely. And please don't try to prove me that I'm wrong, because that's my opinion and I have the right to express it. If you don't know how to listen, it's your problem, not mine.

Even if your point of view is different than mine, I expect you to listen. That's all. I didn't say anything bad or offensive, and if I did, I'm sorry, frankly. I'm not trying to prove anything.

I really do believe that Puppy developers should have more interest in merging new features and bug fixes into a common mainstream code rather than spawning forks (puplets) all along, as it has been the case.

I'm glad to see someone who agrees with me in all this mess.

Iguleder,
Then Control of making an updated version of 431 was given to Tuxx even though you had started the ball rolling.
Were you upset by this?

Not at all. Has nothing to do with that. In fact, I'm glad someone like ttuxxx got the job.

[WhoDo]

I don't think you have any real idea what you are talking about here. Debian is a classic Top 10 distro that made its name simply be standing "in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies."

Totally wrong. Debian advances forward, but it's always lagging 2-3 years behind other distros. Don't tell me that Debian's user interface, initramfs, architecture-independent data, the install CD and everything is exactly the same for all these years.

*sigh* How about a few facts to enlighten you then:

Debian 4.0R4 last released 27-7-2008 - kernel 2.6.24
Debian 5.0 "Lenny" released 15-2-2009 - kernel 2.6.26

Everything in between those dates from Debian was either a Beta or Release Candidate for "Lenny" and it still uses KDE 3.5. 17 months gestation. Ubuntu releases every 6 months. In the same period we had the following from Puppy:

Puppy 4.0 "Dingo" 5-5-2008 - kernel 2.6.21; entirely new build based on T2 with new interface too.
Puppy 4.1 6-10-2008 - kernel 2.6.21 (retro) and 2.6.25
Puppy 4.11 3-11-2008 - kernel 2.6.21 (retro) and 2.6.25
Puppy 4.12 8-12-2008 - kernel 2.6.21 (retro) and 2.6.25
Puppy 4.2 28-3-2009 - kernel 2.6.25 choice of JWM or Icewm window manager, introduced Pwidgets
Puppy 4.21 22-5-2009 - kernel 2.6.25 (I was criticised for waiting so long - 8 weeks)
Puppy 4.3 18-9-2009 - kernel 2.6.30; complete T2 rebuild again (see here for a full accounting of the changes)
Puppy 4.31 17-10-2009 - kernel 2.6.30

As you can see we had major kernel updates or interface changes in 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3. We've also had Quirky, Upup and Dpup within that time frame, all built from the Woof base. I repeat, I don't think you really know what you're talking about. That's my opinion and I'm just as entitled to that as you are to yours. Let the facts speak for themselves.

Git was tried and discarded as not suiting Puppy's purposes but it has been replaced with a more Puppy-friendly system that is part of the Woof build system.

I don't like your sense of humor. It's so Puppy-friendly no one ever heard of it.

No, YOU clearly haven't heard of it. YOU are not representative here. The regular devs know exactly how to get their product in front of Barry and into the build tree at Woof.

Try OpenSUSE if you want a FOSS-only distribution, but be prepared for some things that work poorly at times or others that simply don't work at all.

Heard of the Novell-Microsoft patent deal?

So? That doesn't change the fact that OpenSUSE doesn't include any non-FOSS software and you have to spend an age installing stuff to be able to do anything useful.

I think you and some other people who replied should be ashamed for not being able to discuss this politely. And please don't try to prove me that I'm wrong, because that's my opinion and I have the right to express it. If you don't know how to listen, it's your problem, not mine.

Even if your point of view is different than mine, I expect you to listen. That's all. I didn't say anything bad or offensive, and if I did, I'm sorry, frankly. I'm not trying to prove anything.

Where have I been impolite? What should I be ashamed of in my posts? Accusing me of not being able to listen only demonstrates my point. "No is an answer too". Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I didn't listen. On the contrary, in order to disagree I have to do precisely that!

Where did I accuse you of saying something bad or offensive? I suggest you familiarise yourself with the Mehrabian theory, and discover that there is 93% of spoken communication that simply cannot be conveyed in a text medium. You can have the last word. I've spent entirely too much effort on what now seems to be a lost cause. Open minds don't just happen ... someone has to unlock them from the inside!

[looseSCREWorTWO]

Whodo,
I understand you co-ordinated development of the Puppy 4.2.* series ?

I just want to say thanks to you and all the other people who worked on it.

In December 2009, after having a few problems, I ended up on the Dole in Sydney and in need of a cheap hobby to keep me off the grog. I discovered that a recycling centre called Reverse Garbage sold Pentium 3 / 4 computers (not working) for $5. I had been a computer hacker in the 1980s, so I invested $10 in a couple of these antiques and managed to get them working, using bits and pieces (and sometimes entire computers) that I found thrown-out in dumpsters, laneways and mini-skips.

This became my cheap hobby and since December 2009 I have fixed 8 old computers and got 6 of them up and running, using either Puppy 4.2.1 or 4.2.1 Retro. Puppy 4.3.1 was the first Puppy version I tried, but it didn't work on 3 computers, so I started working backwards through the versions. My idea was to find the latest bug-free version and 4.2.1 was it. Because I was working with some pretty old hardware (one computer was made in 1998) I found that if 4.2.1 didn't work, 4.2.1 Retro almost certainly would.

I've given away 3 restored computers to needy people, via Reverse Garbage. I've kept 2 for my own use (always good to have a "backup system" when using old hardware) and 1 computer is a "work in progress". 2 of the computers were beyond salvation and I stripped them for spare parts.

When newbies with old hardware Post to the Forum (often with problems installing Puppy 4.3.1) the first thing I do is suggest they download 4.2.1 and 4.2.1 Retro and see how they work on their 'puter.

Once again - thanks to you and everyone else who contributed to the Puppy 4.2.* Project. Your work was not in vain. It was not a wasted effort.

Steve

[ttuuxxx]

Thanks steve I think I submitted a couple of the apps in 4.2 Whodo did an excellent job mashing everything together
Also glad to see your recycling Pc's, Some of the older desktops are a lot greener than the newer ones, back about 10yrs ago my pc pwer supply was like 250 watts, my latest one is like 600watts \, just shows you how bad things get when they get modern, but on the other hand there are like 5watt pc's coming out soon like the surfboard.
http://www.slashgear.com/norhtec-gecko- ... d-1766281/
ttuuxxx

[looseSCREWorTWO]

ttuuxxx,
At one stage the Reverse Garbage recycling centre had so many Pentium 3 / 4 'puters coming in they ran out of room for them in their (gigantic) shed. So they set up a tent in the backyard - but they were still getting truckloads (no exaggeration) of Pentium 3s and 4s coming in every week and so the tent was quickly filled to overflowing.

I had a look in the Reverse Garbage "computer tent" one day and 95 percent of that hardware was Pentium 3 / 4 which only needed RAM for it to work. Most of it had been chucked out because it was too "old" to run the latest M$ offering. Running Puppy, it would do just about everything the average User wants to do:
- surf the Web
- manage digital photos
- wordprocessing
- play CDs / mp3s

With the addition of a DVD player/burner ($35 new from eBay) these PCs would burn DVDs and play movies.

I'm not a Gamer, so I don't know if this hardware would be capable of running the latest Games.

The amount of e-waste going to landfill must be appalling and I have a feeling that Puppy Linux is the answer to a lot of it, because it would give the average computer user the capabilities they want at low-cost.

But the common perception out there (thanks mainly to the advertising done by the computer industry) is that everyone "needs" to pay hundreds of dollars for a computer, because they "need" an off-the-shelf Operating System.

I don't know what the answer is.

But I do know that much of the Code in Puppy 4.2.1 and 4.2.1 Retro will be part of the answer.

Steve

[nooby]

Jota wrote:

But, for now I will take a (very long) Puppy break, and focus my attention and skills on other things.

Good coding to everyone, special thanks to Barry for some of the things I've learned with Puppy in the past 4 years, but now it's time to move on!

Sad you don't share with us what is better than Puppy is.

I've tested maybe more than 50 to 70 different distros of linux and puppy it is not the ideal linux to my personal taste but it is the best compromize I have found among all the distros I have tested. I have spent 24/7 since Dec 2009 to find a better distro and always come back to Puppy as the one with most potential.

so if you know or have a hunch on what could be better and don't want to tell us then at least write me a PM telling what is better.


I surely want to know

But the funny thing is that your action support WhoDo's truth.

If it is not fun anymore then the motivation goes down.

It even went so low you leave the ship. I think WhoDo hit the nail rather well in his posts.

We are in it because it is fun and not a work that others tell us to do.

[Lobster]

Thanks Steve

All about 4.2.1
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppy421

[01micko]

We are in it because it is fun and not a work that others tell us to do.

Boom! Boom! ( A quote from Daryl Somers)

[reckrhodes]

No! Puppy will not be dead because Sir Barry Kauler will always be in our heart.
Please show your understanding and respect to each other.

I love you all!

[davesurrey]

reckrhodes
I agree we should all have respect for each other but I don't think glib evangelism will help when honest analytic debate will.
Dave

[shariebeth]

We are in it because it is fun and not a work that others tell us to do.

Even for fun and games, there needs to be prep work and rules or complete chaos errupts. It may be fun for a little bit without them, but for long term satisfaction, there has to be a common direction and guidance.

I understand that you and I have never really seen eye-to-eye on a lot of things, but suggesting that Barry OWES something to the Puppy community because he has created the OS around which it has formed is simply illogical. The debt is entirely due in the opposite direction.

I will just take this snippet to represent your entire post. I disagree with your entire thought process.
How exactly DID the community find this wonderful OS to gather round it? Did they steal if from Barry? Did they force him to make it public? I would imagine Barry presented it to the world at large looking for help, looking for devs, looking for testers, looking for publicity. If not, none of us would be here today in this debate.
Anyone who submits anything for public perusal and use subjects him/herself to both favor and criticism. Anyone expecting that they will only get positive feedback is delusional, no matter how great the work they are offering. It is impossible to please all people even part of the time. That said, it is also possible for people to be immensely grateful and appreciative while at the same time offering their feedback as to what might make "it" better. One does not exclude the other.

--Do creators and devs owe the lowly user anything? No. The user is getting a free product to take or leave as he will, and should be happy it's there at all.
--Do the lowly users owe the creators and devs anything? No. The product was freely put out to be used or abused by us at their own risk.
--Does it benefit everyone to actually be respectful of what each group has to offer even though nothing is owed either direction? Of course.
--Is that happening here? No.
--If feedback and opinions are asked for, is the person or group asking obligated to add the results? No, but don't bother asking if you REALLY don't care and have no intention of following through with anything the users want. And definitely don't stomp off in a huff if the answers aren't what you were looking for.

IF the creator is looking for success, if the devs are looking for rankings and popularity, they will only get that from the users. It behooves them to stop looking at us as the necessary evil or greedy enemy with open mouths. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" works both way. You need the users just as much as the users want Puppy. Acting holier and smarter than thou is not a nice way to treat people, especially when you need their help and input.
If Barry or WhoDo or jemimah, or whoever! only made this distro and it's derivatives only for their own pleasures, why the heck are any of the rest of us on them in the first place?

WhoDo, you obviously have great talent. But your people skills leave a bit to be desired.

[davesurrey]

I just read through all 5 pages of this thread and feel even more despondant than I was when I wrote http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 988#405988 and http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 458#401458

But at least the debate has started, as it needed to, but the polarisation and lack of willingness to discuss decently by some is further bad news.

I had a long post ready but just saw shariebeth's excellent summary

--Do creators and devs owe the lowly user anything? No. The user is getting a free product to take or leave as he will, and should be happy it's there at all.
--Do the lowly users owe the creators and devs anything? No. The product was freely put out to be used or abused by us at their own risk.
--Does it benefit everyone to actually be respectful of what each group has to offer even though nothing is owed either direction? Of course.
--Is that happening here? No.
--If feedback and opinions are asked for, is the person or group asking obligated to add the results? No, but don't bother asking if you REALLY don't care and have no intention of following through with anything the users want. And definitely don't stomp off in a huff if the answers aren't what you were looking for.

I couldn't say it better than that.
Dave

[Trobin]

The question is did Barry ask for feedback, when he created Puppy, or did he put it out there in case other s wanted to use it?

Looking at some early interviews Barry Kauler gave, to Distrowatch and others, Puppy Linux was created for fun and as a means of learning more about Linux.

I can’t say how exactly the Puppy Community got started, only those that were there from the beginning can say for sure. My guess is that someone saw the potential, jumped on the bandwagon, and it evolved from there.

Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door.

He also said, in those interviews, that when it became no longer fun, it would be time to move on. I’m guessing that it is becoming less and less fun.

Why are we here. Obviously because we found something of value in Puppy Linux. For me, it worked and worked well on the equipment I was using at the time. It still runs 1.0.6 quite happily, though I’ve upgraded my equipment and Puppy version since.

[Trobin]

But there is no obligation. It was my choice to use Puppy.

[john biles]

The creation of Puppy Linux came together because Barry K said to himself, I have this vision of what an Operating System should be and he made it.

Over the years I believe it would have brought him much joy. Can you imagine the amount of hours Barry K has put into this, a labor of love.

To User's; So you have a vision yourself for Puppy Linux and what it should be you think, you plan and say this should be the road map for Puppy why isn't Barry K doing this I'll tell him this is what he needs to do. He hears this over and over and over again until he's had enough.

I believe that Barry K didn't sit down all those years ago and say "How am I going to make large sums of money out of this" He gives Puppy Linux to who ever wants it for free and makes some money from CD's.

We all owe this man so much and if you want Puppy Linux to be different then do what I did and make a derivative. You can then create you own website plan your release schedule and live happily ever after until your users start tell you how your derivative should be and your doing it wrong and the cycle begins again.

Linux has the magic to be many things. If your desires for features in other Distro's be included in Puppy, then install the other Distro along side Puppy if your hardware allows you to do so and enjoy dual booting your PC.

[01micko]

Ok..

"Boom! Boom!" did not really add much to this discussion for some.

I hear a lot of "let's get organised", "let's do this and that"... ok, then what. Do we still have Puppy? I don't know about that.

Puppy has been described as "spirited", "frisky", "playful" and probably many other adjectives but those certainly spring to mind for many of us. Will it still be these things with a bunch of organisation?

tombh left Puppy at about the time I started my rants on this forum. He was a bit disappointed in the way Puppy was heading so he left. I say "good on you mate". As far as I know he was a well respected dev around here. He is making a carreer out of Linux so I respect that.

At that time there was a huge discussion going on about "organisation" and "committees" and so on. It was around the time when Barry first announced his intentions. There have been lots of these kinds of discussion. Just browse the forum. I learned to keep my nose out of them! (woops, got involved... dang!).

The best thing I can do for Puppy is keep using it, keep learning and enjoy! While it's fun I will be here.

So, if Puppy is going to become some bureaucratic monster then to me it will become an old dog. Just remember, many of the other "top ten" distros have corporate backing and my puny little bash skills would be absolutely useless to any of them!

Keep the faith!

Boom! Boom!

[WhoDo]

I understand that you and I have never really seen eye-to-eye on a lot of things, but suggesting that Barry OWES something to the Puppy community because he has created the OS around which it has formed is simply illogical. The debt is entirely due in the opposite direction.

I will just take this snippet to represent your entire post. I disagree with your entire thought process.

Ok, so that makes it mutual then.

How exactly DID the community find this wonderful OS to gather round it? Did they steal if from Barry? Did they force him to make it public? I would imagine Barry presented it to the world at large looking for help, looking for devs, looking for testers, looking for publicity. If not, none of us would be here today in this debate.

Barry was semi-retired, now fully retired since his pension has come through, and living in a small house in outback Perenjori, WA. He wrote and created EVE (graphics program) and Puppy Linux as a hobby to while away his time in between visits with his family, including his daughter, and to continue to be a productive member of society in his own way.

It may surprise you that there are people in the world who can GIVE without expecting to RECEIVE in return. IMHO Barry Kauler is one of those. He sees a need or an opportunity and does what he can with the gifts he has to resolve the need or grasp the opportunity for the benefit of others. He would be the first to tell you that he doesn't need anything for himself. He even donates new computers to India with any spare cash he has made from his hobby.

The process of giving in the context of the gifts Barry has necessarily involves putting his creation out in the world for others to use, or not, as they see fit. He has literally asked for NOTHING in return since day 1. Even though he didn't have to, or need to, he has also made himself available to listen to what others want and need and to try to provide that within the parameter that his hobby must remain FUN for him as well as others.

Your statement, " I would imagine Barry presented it to the world at large looking for help, looking for devs, looking for testers, looking for publicity. If not, none of us would be here today in this debate.", is a logical fallicy, being based as it is on a false premise; that Barry's "gift" had some strings attached. It didn't. He has always said that we could take it or leave it as we like. It's just his hobby. Nothing more. Is that so hard to understand or accept? Try reading some of his blog and the material on puppylinux.com for confirmation.

Anyone who submits anything for public perusal and use subjects him/herself to both favor and criticism. Anyone expecting that they will only get positive feedback is delusional, no matter how great the work they are offering. It is impossible to please all people even part of the time. That said, it is also possible for people to be immensely grateful and appreciative while at the same time offering their feedback as to what might make "it" better. One does not exclude the other.

Yes, that's true. That doesn't mean that either the "favor" or the "criticism" are justified. Barry has for years ignored unfair criticism without reaction. I tried filling his shoes for a mere 6 months and couldn't avoid reacting eventually. He has my complete admiration for his forbearance. Why should he now be criticised for protecting himself from further criticism of his HOBBY, deserved or otherwise? I find his much delayed reaction entirely justifiable in the circumstances, regardless of whether or not the criticism was warranted. He is NOT Frankenstein; owing a debt to society for the "sins" of his monster! Sheesh!

--Do creators and devs owe the lowly user anything? No. The user is getting a free product to take or leave as he will, and should be happy it's there at all.
--Do the lowly users owe the creators and devs anything? No. The product was freely put out to be used or abused by us at their own risk.

Hmmm... one right, one wrong IMHO. I have had far more than a free OS from Puppy. I have had hours and hours of delightful tinkering, problem-solving, creativity and FUN. I didn't expect that but I got it and I'm grateful. I believe I owe Barry for giving me that opportunity, as do many others. To adopt the attitude of a "taker", that he gave it away so I don't "owe" him anything, misses the true gift. I say "Thanks for sharing, Barry".

--Does it benefit everyone to actually be respectful of what each group has to offer even though nothing is owed either direction? Of course.
--Is that happening here? No.

Who said Barry and the devs were not "respectful" of the contribution that users make to the Puppy development effort? There is a difference between respecting the efforts of those wonderful users who test the various releases and offer their constructive criticisms and feedback, and being coerced by constant criticism into taking a particular direction with the project. It is Barry's hobby, and that of the volunteer devs, and not some user-driven attempt to make everyone's ideal OS. As you said, "The product was freely put out to be used or abused by (them) at (their) own risk."

--If feedback and opinions are asked for, is the person or group asking obligated to add the results? No, but don't bother asking if you REALLY don't care and have no intention of following through with anything the users want. And definitely don't stomp off in a huff if the answers aren't what you were looking for.

See, again you have started with a the correct answer and followed that up with an improbable conclusion drawn from it. Whoever said Barry and the devs "...don't care and have no intention of following through with anything the users want"? They may not be driven by what users want but that doesn't mean they don't listen and, if it interests them to do so, respond by providing some of the requested features and benefits. Just because users don't drive Puppy's direction doesn't necessarily mean that they have no impact. Nothing is ever all black or all white and gray or shades of gray is not all that lies between those two extremes. There is a whole rainbow of possibilities that can be overlooked if you adopt the black/white polar view.

IF the creator is looking for success, if the devs are looking for rankings and popularity, they will only get that from the users. It behooves them to stop looking at us as the necessary evil or greedy enemy with open mouths. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" works both way. You need the users just as much as the users want Puppy. Acting holier and smarter than thou is not a nice way to treat people, especially when you need their help and input.

Now we come to a serious parting of the ways. I and many others here do not share your "social source of reference". We do not all equate "success" with "rankings" or "popularity".

Barry is concerned with the latest Puppy rankings, yes, but I don't believe his concern is with popularity so much as what falling popularity says about the usefulness of his gift for others. He doesn't need the users but that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy their satisfaction with his freely given gift. Remember, too, that Puppy is called Puppy because it was named for his long time companion; a chihuahua called "Puppy". I'm sure Puppy's popularity probably has some emotional overtones for Barry. It ensures his faithful companion of many years will not be forgotten. That's Barry's way of giving back the unconditional love that his companion showered on him. He has staunchly resisted changing the name of his distro for the sake of more popularity.

It is a mistake to overlay our own thoughts, ideas and values on the actions and reactions of others IMO.

If Barry or WhoDo or jemimah, or whoever! only made this distro and it's derivatives only for their own pleasures, why the heck are any of the rest of us on them in the first place?

WhoDo, you obviously have great talent. But your people skills leave a bit to be desired.

Maybe. I freely admit I don't have the patience with fools that many others have. That's not to say you are a fool, only that I don't have much patience with them when I find them. I can accept my "feet of clay", but can you?

I came to Puppy because it met a need. I was rebuilding discarded PC's for charity and we couldn't afford to buy licences for MIcro$oft products. We started using Ubuntu (4.10 then 5.04) and Mandrake but both were just unusable on the old machines we had to donate. I discovered Puppy by searching the Distrowatch rankings for small and fully featured Linux OS's. We tried Damn Small Linux and Damn Small Linux Not, but they weren't very refugee-friendly (I coined that term "Windows refugees" by the way). In the end we found that we could customise Puppy to look like Windows XP and so lessened the culture shock for the users for whom we built the machines. That's how I came to develop the EZPup add-on, and many of the Icewm themes I created.

The bottom line is the rest of us are "on them" (meaning Puppy and its derivatives) because they meet OUR needs, not those of Barry and the devs. I find it hard to understand why you and some others find it hard to fathom that. It's like you are saying "Hey, you gave us this great OS but it doesn't do exactly what we want; so FIX IT!" How reasonable is that attitude?

If I have misjudge you in that assessment, I apologise. It is, after all, only my interpretation of words in an imperfect communication medium. Hopefully I will at least have made my thought process, with which you disagree, a little clearer.

[WhoDo]

Whodo,
I understand you co-ordinated development of the Puppy 4.2.* series ?

I just want to say thanks to you and all the other people who worked on it.

You are most welcome. ttuuxxx was one of the lead developers on that project and it wouldn't have come to fruition without him and the others. I just provided the direction and some of the polish.

In December 2009, after having a few problems, I ended up on the Dole in Sydney and in need of a cheap hobby to keep me off the grog. ...[snip]...
I've given away 3 restored computers to needy people, via Reverse Garbage. I've kept 2 for my own use (always good to have a "backup system" when using old hardware) and 1 computer is a "work in progress". 2 of the computers were beyond salvation and I stripped them for spare parts...[snip]...Once again - thanks to you and everyone else who contributed to the Puppy 4.2.* Project. Your work was not in vain. It was not a wasted effort.

Thank you, Steve. Your story gives me a very good feeling about my hobby. It gratifies me to know that someone else is getting something worthwhile out of what we did for fun and in my case my effort to repay a personal debt. It seems to have given you a renewed purpose, too, and for that I am most grateful.

When I was rebuilding PC's for donation to charity, it was as the leader of a Work for the Dole team here in Newcastle. At first the participants were resentful that they were being used as "cheap labour" to earn their dole. Eventually they all came to appreciate that it is what we give, regardless of how little or how much we have, that is the true measure of our worth in society. Most of my participants went away knowing they were worth far more as individuals than the sum of their dole payments could ever convey.

[cthisbear]

john biles is a bloke that's had his Puppy disappointments.
Even uses Mandriva??? at times.

Renegade.

There are well over 50,000 downloads of his last 2 Teenpups.
Plus his previous form and other sites.

http://linux.softpedia.com/progMoreBy/P ... -6558.html

Say if only 10% use it regularly...how many comps were
saved from landfill.

Still John carries on and hoists the flag for Puppy.
Probably against his own better judgement.

For the users that whinge....how many are grateful

This bloke is an Aussie in the true spirit.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 394#407394

" I also love to hear for users like yourself that TEENpup was
useful and not a waste of my energy after all. :D "

""""""

01micko is another one.
Hidden talents this one.

Mr 486...wonderful.

Is it worth it? (Absolutely!!!

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=36843

His website:

http://users.tpg.com.au/01micko/

http://users.tpg.com.au/01micko/theshed.html

But he can't shutup Total posts: 3146

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Puppy is about making a better world.

WhoDo wrote:

" He doesn't need the users but that doesn't mean he doesn't
enjoy their satisfaction with his freely given gift. "

" Puppy is called Puppy because it was named for his long time companion; a chihuahua called "Puppy". "

""""""""

And many people laughed at Puppy, derided us for the name.
Now they aren't laughing so much when they step in our puddles.

If you don't like dogs keep away from Paris.
Such a romantic place...if you are wearing gumboots.

Chris.

[WhoDo]

If you don't like dogs keep away from Paris.
Such a romantic place...if you are wearing gumboots.

Ah, Chris. Still making me laugh. You are definitely a unit, mate.