So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?

Puppy related raves and general interest that doesn't fit anywhere else
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tlchost
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#31 Post by tlchost »

jemimah wrote: To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever. Suggesting otherwise is extremely harmful.
Oh please.....if your programming is so sacred and you have no obligations to users, why even release it? Or are we to prostate ourselves to pay homage to you and seek comfort in the gift from the annointed one?

nooby
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#32 Post by nooby »

tlchost I trust jemimah to be totally right on that one.

They do it because it is fun to do it. If the users start to demand things that take away the fun and there goes the inner motivation.

If you are able to fix things feeling to be a core and a PITA then what stops you from being a developer yourself.
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DaveS
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#33 Post by DaveS »

tlchost wrote:
jemimah wrote: To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever. Suggesting otherwise is extremely harmful.
Oh please.....if your programming is so sacred and you have no obligations to users, why even release it? Or are we to prostate ourselves to pay homage to you and seek comfort in the gift from the annointed one?
Know what? Barry is DEAD RIGHT!
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James C
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#34 Post by James C »

It's really easy to see why Barry locked down his blog........

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linuxsansdisquedur
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#35 Post by linuxsansdisquedur »

never heard 'dows users or 'buntu ones using sort of threat against bill G or M$huttleworth or their devs !! :shock:
is puppy and his devs too friendly ?
is the hard work of amateurs doesn't worth as much as work for money ?
It is NOT my opinion !
I like puppy because of its powerful lightness (i went to it because of its) and also for its not professional side (i love it for that utopian way).
Sure, a distro that provide in official OS the way to remasterize and make pupplet (thank to Barry) can't be a one way thinking dogma but a protean one with some anarchy in development and a Barry is needed to unitize it.
I can't imagine Barry leave its beloved creation.
But i'm sure puppy gonna live as long as this forum can work and our shared ideas and work can build a future for it 8)
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jemimah
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#36 Post by jemimah »

@shariebeth, I didn't intend to single you out as specifically as I did. No personal offense intended, "welfare" and "entitlement" are Barry's words. This is a long standing conflict that comes up over and over.

@tclhost, programming is only "sacred" to me. I don't expect others the care about it. When they do, it's surprising. Honestly, gratitude make me nearly as uncomfortable as demands.

@sylvander, I don't necessarily agree with your stats teacher either. But if something is even marginally useful only to me, that's still enough reason to do it.

@ttuuxxx - but tinycore already has the best window manager, FLWM. No need for JWM or icewm. Of course their build of it needs a little work... like Xft support. :P Anyway, don't take it personally - I'm sure this whole situation will sort itself out when everybody calms down.

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#37 Post by nooby »

Which Quirky version is it Barry plan to present as the official one? there is 13 of them. is it 13 then that has the best chance? Where can I download it?
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MinHundHettePerro
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#38 Post by MinHundHettePerro »

nooby wrote:Where can I download it?
Here

hth :)/
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nooby
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#39 Post by nooby »

Thanks
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

looseSCREWorTWO
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#40 Post by looseSCREWorTWO »

Jemimah said:
The great thing about Puppy is that you don't have to customize it. The out of the box experience is pretty darn good for the size.
"pretty darn good" is one way to describe Puppy Linux.

Personally, I would have said "absolutely bloody amazing"

And if someone has been developing this amazing OS for years and years I think he should be able to take some "time out" without having the finger pointed at him

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WhoDo
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#41 Post by WhoDo »

jemimah wrote:
shariebeth wrote:to guide the geniuses who CAN code so that they code what the users and potential future uses want and need!
This is the attitude that causes the problem. The is what is meant by "entitlement" and "welfare mentality." ...[snip]... But the ultimate reason for coding is because the euphoria of problem solving is addictive. And we seek more and harder problems, like an addict desperate for a fix. ...[snip]...

Programming is a very personal search for self actualization...[snip]... so when users somehow get the idea that any of it is "about them," it's almost a laughable misunderstanding. It's such a wonderful feeling when I discover that other people like and use my work - but even if everybody hated it, I would continue to do the work in private...[snip]...The benefit comes from being able to bring forth my own vision into existence. Few people can tell me what this vision is better than me, but I often invite dialog with the purpose of generating new ideas, because I like nothing better than new ideas. I collect ideas in my mind like a numismatist collects coins, cherishing them, polishing them, sometimes trading them in for new ones.

To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever.
Ah, vindication! I love it!!! One of the frequent questions from "users" when I was coordinating the 4.2.x series development project was "why don't you listen to us?" The degree of presumption in that question is just staggering! I felt like saying "NO is also an answer"! Maybe I did, once or twice. :)

[rant switch = on]
I've been saying for years, from the perspective of a project leader managing volunteer developers, that you simply cannot TELL volunteers what to do! You can ask. You can beg. You can bribe or encourage; but you can't TELL. They do what they do because it is fun! If they did it because it was what the users wanted and that's not what they also wanted it would no longer be fun; it would be work! Work requires payment because it is a chore not a pleasure. Even professional coders prefer their own projects to the ones they're paid to produce! Fun vs. work! It's so simple I have trouble understanding why so many others simply don't or won't get it! :?

I'm sure there are people out there lucky enough to be paid for what they enjoy doing. That said, let's not get confused between simply coding (the act) and coding (the realisation of ones own ideas). The former is usually work. The latter can be great fun if you're a coder!

I'd say that jemimah is probably a Jungian introvert; needing only the self-satisfaction of solving a problem or realising an idea. There are coders who are Jungian extroverts; ttuuxxx for example. They need at least someone outside of themselves to appreciate what they do or they move on. I think Barry is probably more like jemimah than ttuuxxx in that regard, but I'm sure there is an element of the extrovert in his make-up; otherwise he wouldn't be so concerned with apparent criticisms on his blog.

Either way - introvert or extrovert - when it stops being fun volunteers will quickly find another outlet for their creative natures to explore. Barry did it for a while with Woof and Quirky and feeling refreshed by that was moved to offer to rejuvenate his original baby that was Dingo (4.x series). All I can say is that, at the moment, Puppy is NOT dead, the sky is NOT falling and Barry and the other devs are NOT motivated by what users want unless they want to be!

Barry's blog is now locked. I think Barry will come to regret that because it presently isolates him from a whole bunch of other coders who can feed his creative ideas, as he does theirs. All the same I'm not surprised. I don't think ICPUG and Jota were at all unreasonable in their posts, but they weren't necessarily feeding Barry's creativity either. "Erk! That tastes bad so I'd better spit it out!" was probably his unconscious reaction. I'm sure he will find another way to get valuable feedback to nourish his creativity.

To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't. Enjoy it for what it is or move on. If you need something changed, fixed or updated and no-one else seems inclined to oblige you in that need, find a way to get it done yourself or not; that's your choice. Whatever you do, do NOT nag or whine to get your way. The people you nag or whine at may chose to move on themselves and that will be everyone's loss, not just yours!
[rant switch = off]

If you've read this far, thanks for "listening". If not, no problem. :wink: To those who may be tempted to accuse me of being an "armchair psychologist", I freely admit I'm no expert. As a professional educator and manager for over 40 years, however, I believe I do have some insight into people and what makes them "tick". Take that FWIW and nothing more.

Cheers
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shariebeth
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#42 Post by shariebeth »

WhoDo wrote:To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't.
Then don't ask us what we want and need. Don't ask us to test your projects and "Give feedback please!" Don't complain when people don't (I have seen many a volunteer dev, and Barry too, complain that nobody gave feedback and therefore they are dropping the project due to lack of interest).

Make up your minds what you want.

But asking for our feedback then calling us selfish greedy demanding leeches for giving it especially when it isn't what you wanted to hear puts you all lower than the welfare and entitlement labels you are sticking on us.

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top ten

#43 Post by raffy »

HO HUM...

In that page linked to by Barry, I also said that being in the "top ten" of distrowatch has its own problems, certainly like this one.

Anyway, there are devs and users: Devs solve problems, and users want to go to devs for their own problems.

But NO - Puppy enables users to be devs of some sort, so they can therefore solve their own problems. This must be one reason for the ascending rank of Puppy in distrowatch.

What we wanted to avoid is for devs to be treated as if they are servants of users. They are not - look at the big print: NO WARRANTY, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

The success of Open Source is that individuals (devs) are able to do what used to be done by corporate entities. And that these devs (individuals) are here with us is something to be grateful about.

Am certainly grateful that Barry has been picking up the pieces for Puppy 5, and that jemimah is here leading development for puppeee. :)

Am I a user? Yes, and I try to represent user interest from the education field.

Do I do my share of the work? Yes, I try to be admin of puppylinux.org, and shortly, puppeee.org. I take part of the load of devs so that they can focus more on the important issues. Shouldn't everyone do as well?

Do I complain? HO HUM, there must be better things to do, OK?

And if other people here do what I have been planning to do, that is already a large benefit in being here.
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].

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WhoDo
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Re: So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?

#44 Post by WhoDo »

Iguleder wrote:So ... is Puppy dead?
No.
Iguleder wrote:... if the community-effort to build Puppy 5 is all about using the junky Ubuntu packages, Puppy lost it. It won't support old hardware and Ubuntu's huge size and bloat won't do wonders with Puppy. This is no longer Puppy. Just a silly Lubuntu-like distro with JWM.
You've missed the whole point of Upup, which is to bring the speed and lightness of the Puppy architecture to the users who like the look and feel of Ubuntu, and access to the Ubuntu package choices. It is NOT about making Puppy bloated or being an Ubuntu derivative or clone.
Iguleder wrote:The current development model of Puppy is bad and it simply doesn't work. People invent nifty improvements here and there, which eventually appear only on one puplet and get lost in the heaps of topics of these huge forums. Puppy remains old, stupid and stands in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies. This cannot happen in a normal distro. Especially not in the 10th most popular one.
I don't think you have any real idea what you are talking about here. Debian is a classic Top 10 distro that made its name simply be standing "in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies." Puppy sits fairly happily in its own niche, neither being at the technological bleeding edge like Tiny Core or Zenwalk nor lagging behind so far as Debian.
Iguleder wrote:The Puppy "base", all the architecture-independent data, stuff like the directory structure, desktop files, all that, must be stored on some git repository or something, so people can change it. That's true open development model. Puppy, until now, was developed in a very close and stiff way.
If you had been following Puppy development you would know this is already the case. Git was tried and discarded as not suiting Puppy's purposes but it has been replaced with a more Puppy-friendly system that is part of the Woof build system.
Iguleder wrote:Also, Puppy mustn't include Flash or anything that is not free. That is bad for Puppy and good for corporations, who find another crowd of unwilling users. Alternatives exist. That's one of the reasons why free software exists at all.
You have missed the original Puppy philosophy; it "just works" for most users. A totally FOSS philosophy sacrifices that. You may be passionate about that but most users just want something that works. Puppy devs continue to investigate the alternatives and offer them when they are considered mature enough to fill the bill; not before. Try OpenSUSE if you want a FOSS-only distribution, but be prepared for some things that work poorly at times or others that simply don't work at all.
Iguleder wrote:I'm sorry, but if Puppy goes to the Ubuntu direction, I'm outta here. There's nothing I can do anymore. I've written many articles for the wiki (see my sig), many guides, packaged software and I truly believe that I did a lot for the Puppy community. I feel betrayed. I will NOT support Ubuntu, Adobe or any company. And I will not assist Puppy on its way to the grave.
So be it. I think you're wrong but that's my right just as it's yours to leave if you wish. Ubuntu exists at the top of the distro rankings, so it must be doing something right. Offering those who prefer Ubuntu a much lighter and faster alternative is a good thing, not a sell out to Canonical, any more than offering Window$ style interfaces is a sell out to Micro$oft. Passion is great. Zealousness often goes beyond reason.
Iguleder wrote:EDIT: I'm not spitting at Barry, the community or Puppy. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm full of appreciation and thankfulness.
That's good to know. Don't "cut off your nose to spite your face" is a common expression to those with English as their first language. I hope you will understand and appreciate that sentiment.
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WhoDo
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#45 Post by WhoDo »

shariebeth wrote:
WhoDo wrote:To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't.
Then don't ask us what we want and need. Don't ask us to test your projects and "Give feedback please!" Don't complain when people don't (I have seen many a volunteer dev, and Barry too, complain that nobody gave feedback and therefore they are dropping the project due to lack of interest).

Make up your minds what you want.

But asking for our feedback then calling us selfish greedy demanding leeches for giving it especially when it isn't what you wanted to hear puts you all lower than the welfare and entitlement labels you are sticking on us.
Ok, I can see you feel personally aggrieved here so I will try one last time to explain the difference between "feedback" and "demanding change".

When a dev requests feedback, what they're asking is "does my code do what I intended" and not "does my code do what you think it should.

There is a vast difference between answering that call for specific information and making personal demands for the development of solutions to meet the needs of a particular user or group of users.

I have never known a dev, volunteer or otherwise, to complain about being told a particular piece of code has a bug - that is doesn't work as the programmer intended. I certainly have heard of devs complaining about users labelling as "buggy" code that does what the programmer intended but not what the user wanted. I repeat, volunteer devs are not here to meet the expectations of users unless by serendipity those happen to coincide with their own.

When devs complain that users aren't testing their code, it usually comes AFTER they were forced to release buggy code because no-one had tested it for them. To then complain they are either bad coders or not listening to what users want and need is adding insult to injury.

shariebeth, I understand your position. Please accept that the emphasis in my post (and jemimah's, I believe) was on the expectation that devs, particularly volunteer devs, will always respond in the way that users want or need. That simply cannot be the case in a voluntary project, I'm sorry. You have a right to expect that from Micro$oft, and to some degree from Canonical if you bought support with your pre-loaded Ubuntu package, but not from Puppy. As raffy has pointed out, there are no warranties either expressed or implied when you choose to enjoy the benefits of Puppy freely given.

BTW, I don't recall anyone here calling you or anyone else "selfish greedy demanding leeches". If they had I would deplore that as much as you.
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#46 Post by rcrsn51 »

WhoDo wrote:... That simply cannot be the case in a voluntary project, I'm sorry.
This community has provided BK with free testing, free user support, free software and free web hosting for HIS project. Anyone who has successfully managed a volunteer enterprise understands the importance of keeping the troops happy.

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Aitch
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#47 Post by Aitch »

shariebeth wrote: Aitch wrote:
Iguleder

You seem to have caught the puppyite virus

I recommend running a shower to clear your mind, and if that doesn't work.....
.....ask someone near to give you a tap on the head :wink: :D

Please don't contaminate the forum

Aitch :)


I'm speechless. .....
yet clearly not enough to continue....
I'm disgusted. I suspect this thread was created out of frustration and desperation because the more "appropriate and private" venue's were either ignored or blocked. Anyone who has the common sense and foresight to see what is happening, and speaks up, gets the shaft here.
I'm sorry I don't think you've been around as long as some of us

My post wasn't a shafting, merely a diversionary humour
I have the common sense and foresight to see what is happening, so, I try it every time one of this type of post gets started, because it brings out the viral behaviour seen here.....negativity begets negativity

Hence, diversionary humour....obviously not seen for what it was so.....
Are you the same shariebeth who also said,
It is always good to practice the tolerance we preach of. :P
Let me remind you....

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 519#398519

that was the IRC channel negativity thread

My final words in that thread are
Do we have this in perspective now, folks? :D

Big Planet, small 'problem' - and shrinking happens by not feeding the 'problem'

....unless you aren't conscious of the effect you DO have in the big planet, via the internet

Aitch :)
Now, is there really any need 'to air the dirty washing' like this?

Are WE ALL collectively so darned fragile that we fall to pieces because someone gets upset with something???


WhoDo

I wish it were so simple as to see things in terms of intro- or extro-vertian, [Jungian or not] - however I DO think you nailed it when you said 'When it stops being fun........'

For want of being predictable,

Do we have this in perspective now, folks? :D

Big Planet, small 'problem' - and shrinking happens by not feeding the 'problem'

....unless you aren't conscious of the effect you DO have in the big planet, via the internet

Image

We are Puppy - Resistance is Futile! [but humour helps allay negativity :wink: ]

Enough already! Please! :D

Aitch :)

raffy
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original post

#48 Post by raffy »

The original post is by Iguleder, who has done some work in "unofficial 4.3.2" here.

He could follow Ttuuxxx's example and call his build, say, "iggy" version (the same way Ttuuxxx called his version "puppies"). One more example, see slaxer by big_bass.

Iguleder, please do what you like to do, and if it happens to be your own unique build of Puppy, am confident that people here will be happy and willing to help.

Or you can handle the more challenging role of collecting innovations for the next Puppy build. :)
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#49 Post by Jota »

@ ttuuxxx:
Congrats for the 4.3.2 effort! So far it looks good.
Ah and instead of Tinycore take a look at Slitaz... It's a saner base to build upon. You will be happy!! ;-)
http://www.slitaz.org/en/doc/releases/3 ... es.en.html

@ jemimah, about the relationship between devs and users:
"Men have forgotten this truth," said the fox. "But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed. You are responsible for your rose . . ."
Le Petit Prince, by Antoine Exupery
http://waterviolet.blogspot.com/2010/02 ... rince.html


....

On a keynote:

It seems that were my posts on Barry's blog that leads him to "close" his blog to others people opinions.

I don't know for the others, but for me, thanks for the education that my parents gave to me, I'm pretty open-minded. Critics have always helped me to grow as a person and as a professional.

So, in my opinion, Barry's attitude has been brutal. I just feel sorry for him.

If anyone read with attention my posts, I had not used any offensive words, not even close. On the contrary, I did offer some ideas to help Puppy be a better distro.

But it is funny that no-one had commented on that ideas, only commented on the bits where I criticize Barry!

I really do believe that Puppy developers should have more interest in merging new features and bug fixes into a common mainstream code rather than spawning forks (puplets) all along, as it has been the case.

For some time I have fixes and solutions to some of the problems that Barry is currently investigating. But where to send them? To Barry?? To some of the pupplets? (neither to say that some of the fixes and enhancements are very technical and probably only Barry or a few people will understand them)

But, for now I will take a (very long) Puppy break, and focus my attention and skills on other things.

Good coding to everyone, special thanks to Barry for some of the things I've learned with Puppy in the past 4 years, but now it's time to move on!

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#50 Post by shariebeth »

@Whodo: I don't expect anything from any of you. I came into Puppy for what puppy was when I saw it. I do not criticize anything I've seen nor do I make demands. I am thrilled to have found puppy. I can put together "Hello world", and make a grocery list, and my dog's names and birthdates in C and C++ spit out. That is the extent of my coding abilities or I would have long since volunteered to help as well. I DO expect that if someone asks for opinions or for "feedback", they accept the good, the bad, and the ugly...and the occasional comments of what users would like without throwing their toys out of the pram in a fit. That is part of the package deal when you interact with "the public". Interaction goes both ways.

I am curious though, why the obsession with rankings, if devs don't care what the users want or need. Aren't those same users the ones who click and vote?

@Aitch: First and foremost, I am sorry if what you said was an attempt at using humor to defuse the situation. Given the rest of the comments and tone, it was an easy assumption (yes I know what they say about assuming) to think you were serious, and I am sorry I fell into that trap.

What tolerance am I preaching of that I am not practicing? If anything, I am asking Barry and the devs to be more tolerant of the users they are ultimately coding for. As has already been pointed out by others, if they weren't interested in the users, why is any of this up for public consumption? I am certainly tolerant of devs and their talents and their quirks too. I have great respect for the whole project and everyone involved. I ask you to find me an example of where I have been negative to any dev or any puppy.

I'm also curious what my length of time here has to do with anything. Am I less worthy than you to have an opinion? Perhaps you are not familiar with the concept that sometimes it takes an "outsider" looking in, to see the big picture clearly. Of course I don't see myself as an outsider anymore but obviously the old-schoolers here do and do not welcome anyone new rocking their boat.

I have no wish to air dirty laundry in public, I quite abhor that whole concept. I also don't see where I have been the one to start anything in public. However I also have an equal dislike of unfairness and hypocrisy, and if I see someone being unfairly slandered or attacked, I will speak up.

Finally: yes it should be fun. For everyone. :)

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