Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

[JohnMurga]

Recently Flash had to lock a thread, he did it because things had turned a little poisonous and he had no choice ... As usual I think his judgement was spot on, however, there is something that was said that I feel I have to give my own take on.

We should be able to discuss our own beliefs and respect those of others. Saying that religion should not be discussed implies that we are unable to engage in civilized discourse without falling into the trap of allowing ethnocentric or militant tendencies to take over.

There will be those who cite transgressions as an excuse to descend into the depths of of intolerance and bigotry, and to those I'd say that ultimately people will judge you based on your own actions ... Much can be learnt from intellectual adversaries and enemies, treat them with contempt and you demonstrate a tendency towards ignorance.

This is an idea reflected in the teachings of the bible that the founding fathers also understood very well ...

As a guest in this fine land I am sadened by those who move it away from it's enlightened founding principles, those who would sooner isolate themselves from events and ideas in the world around them rather than accept that other opinions exist that may be as valid as their own. Those who believe that you can be judged for anything other than your actions.

Either way I leave you with the following inscription from the Jefferson memorial (taken from the declaration of independence) :

[Sage]

Nicely said, John. That's what moderators are for! So glad you decided not to throttle free speech like the spineless operators of so many other websites.

A major new series started on British TV last night, featuring Prof Richard Dawkins travelling around the world to investigate beliefs and where they are heading:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A8221358
It was very chilling. He was threatened with violence both by Haggard in the US and a Muslim ex-Jew in Jerusalem.

The world is sliding backwards into the black abyss of ignorance and superstition at an alarming and accelerating rate. Inquisitions could be next if the suicide bombing bigots don't get there first. Don't laugh! Both devices have happened. Tolerance and neighbourliness are in short supply in today's world.

[Lobster]

Very well said John

Flash does a great job because most of the time his efforts are invisible. Civilised rationality does not apply to religion. It never has. Unless of course you are practitioner rather than a theorist.

For the record here are my beliefs which I will change as soon as stating:

* Ignorance is bliss (unless you are the victim)
* "I am blind and now I see" - falls into a pit (Monty Python 'The Life of Brian')
* God should be seen and not herd
* The price of Free speech is having to endure the prattling of the enslaved

Oh Buddha!

http://pages.britishlibrary.net/lobster/nasrudin/

[klhrevolutionist]

I can only thank John Murga for accepting true freedom of speech! Things do get carried away as I do sometimes myself.
I apologize once again if I got carried away.

But if we as a world don't acknowledge what is going on in Australia with guns being outlawed. In America where every freedom is under attack, In germany where their constituion is still illegal, In france where muslims are being pushed around.
May I remind you. Everyone likes to say, "Hitler did this", and, "Hitler did that". But the truth is Hitler did very little. He was a world class tyrant, but the evil actually done by the Third Reich, from the death camps to WW2 was all done by German citizens who were afraid to question if what they were told by their government was the truth or not, and who because they did not want to admit to themselves that they were afraid to question the government, refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag Fire, refused to see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed Hitler into national disaster.

I live in a world where people are ignoring facts and that which causes restrictions upon my freedom. In regards to puppy, there will be no puppy if we do not start acknowledging these things. I know we are caught in the moment as people. But do we wish to enslave ourselves ?

Thanks to everybody at puppy. I will drop by and see what's up & upgrade. But I will move along so that you may not be interrupted from your lives. But others might not be so kind.

[thoughtjourney]

I'd just like to add my two cents in here, and I do think that I am probably in the minority.

When I come to the Puppy Linux Forum, I like to read about Puppy Linux. I'm not afraid of debate, and I certainly believe that debate is necessary, particularly to democracies. I just don't enjoy the debates here, firstly because of the way they start, in many cases, and secondly, because I don't think they are genuine debates. I know that MU thinks this is a good place to discuss various sensitive topics because the community is strong and people generally respect each other. I can see his point in a sense, but have found that rather than strengthening my respect for members of the community, the opposite has occurred in some cases. This is not because people put forward arguments that I disagree with, rather that some people espouse their beliefs without sensitivity and in a fashion not proper to true debate, when I am actually interested in technical issues.

I don't think it is gutless to not participate, as I prefer to respect the purpose of the discussion forum. I personally find the religious and political discussions a bit tiresome and unpleasant, but I try to ignore them and focus on what I am here for, and that is a sparkling linux distribution.

As I said, I am sure that I am in the minority, but I wanted the moderators to understand my sentiment. This done, I shall return to obscurity in these matters.

Cheers,

[Nathan F]

Thanks, John M.

KLH-please do stop by from time to time.

Nathan

[raffy]

Same views here, thoughtjourney, though i couldn't resist the fun sometimes, and join in on that count i am weaker...

[thoughtjourneySansLogin]

That's a great reply, raffy

[thoughtjourneySansLogin]

although I doubt anyone here would describe you as weak.

[BarryK]

Perhaps I should comment also.

I haven't read the thread that has caused the controversy, so I
don't know the specific details.

KLH, you have put in a lot of effort, maintaining the wiki, testing and answering questions on the forum, etc. I greatly appreciate it, and I don't want you to go. I know that you feel strongly about certain things, and indeed we do live in very troubled times.

I think that the Puppy Forum should just be for Puppy Linux, nothing else. We are doing our bit for the world by working on Puppy, and there are other avenues for discussing/promoting wider philosophical/political viewpoints.

I don't mind if people post links to elsewhere, inviting wider discussions, but just not on the Puppy Forum itself.

Perhaps there should be a sticky in the Misc thread to this effect? ...my suggestion anyway.
We don't have to censor posts in Misc, but a sticky advising people to curtail religious/philosophical/ethnic debates should be enough.

However, this should not be my decision, whatever is done should be agreed by the majority of us "hard core" Puppy forum users.

[Sage]

That's fair comment, Barry, but we are never going to agree on that one! Everyone has views - it is everyone's responsibility to have views. My experience suggests that a majority in the scientific, engineering and technology community are extremely reticent about airing their views outside their usual sphere of activity. We are all richer from the widest possible expression of views on all matters. We've spent the last two millenia fighting for the right to discuss our views freely. Every opportunity should be used to encourage the vast diversity of views held by the vast diversity of humanity. Tolerance is what is required. I don't necessarily disrespect those who don't share my views (but I reserve the right to do so!). After all, if I sailed to Oz, missed my target and fell off the edge of the world, I might find myself heading directly into the Sun as it rotates around us......

[Lobster]

[Ian]

I'm not sure if a forum for people working on and using an operating system based on the Linux kernel is really the place to discuss religion and politics.

I find that this kind of topic, while very important to many people, just gets in the way of my thinking.

I made my decisions regarding these subjects a very long time ago and nothing I have seen or experienced since has made me change my way of thinking.

This leaves me free to move on and explore other areas of interest mainly Puppy and programming where at least I have some input and control over what I do.

What I believe or disbelieve is entirely my business and would be of no use or interest to anyone else, I do not mean this in a nasty way it's just a fact of life.

Everyone should make their own decisions and hang on to them as this is what makes life bearable.

And remember what the Readers Digest says:

"Laughter is the best medicine"

[Ian]

I almost forgot, medicinal drinking is good for you too.

[JohnMurga]