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Puppy on ARM Netbooks
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swiatmar


Joined: 09 Aug 2008
Posts: 241
Location: Danube, AT

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jan 2010, 14:38    Post_subject:  Puppy on ARM Netbooks  

Hello!!

I have a simple short question Smile

Is puppy running also on netbooks with arm processor?
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4765
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan 2010, 09:28    Post_subject: No  

Not yet. Nobody has started building Puppy for the ARM CPU variants.
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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan 2010, 09:41    Post_subject:  

however there is no specific prohibition in the puppy constitution so feel free to start the port to ARM as soon as you like
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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jan 2010, 13:40    Post_subject:  

Alright so i know absolutely zero about this but a bright idea just occurred to me so I too have a question. If you woof build an Arm ported distro eg i think ubuntu has an arm version, do you then have an armed and dangerous puppy?
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 00:41    Post_subject:  

Yes Puppy using Woof can be ARM'd

This can be done with Dpup, Spup or Upup
(maybe the others too)

If running one of these next kennel breed of Puppy
(which are still being developed)
you can use the Debian, Slackware or Ubuntu software depositories to build a Puppy Puplet
(or Wooflet in this case) from their ARM compatible files
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Woof

As our intrepid Puppys develop a whiff of Woof power
expect Puppy on the cell processor - yep some nice ps2's and in time ps3's will be available.
Mainframe Puppy will be in our reach (that just makes me laugh)
The Puppy Phone cometh . . .
Rolling Eyes

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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 01:30    Post_subject:  

thanks for that Lobster.
so what is the log-jam? i would have though that this prospect would inspire the prime developer resource to drop everything else and move quickly put an armed puppy on a phone. barking phones what next! Razz am i missing something?

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 06:58    Post_subject:  

Quote:
so what is the log-jam?


Not that many devices - no single market product
such as the Eeepc - which spawned many puplets

What would you use as the reference device?

If IBM or Sony had a new hardware product
for their cell processor or a manufacturer in China decided to
launch a MIPS based Puppy device, it might do really well

We have Puppy in Intel based products such as this


Puppy is ready to be ARM'd.
Woof Woof

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jamesjeffries2

Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 07:52    Post_subject:  

A while back I played around with porting puppy to MIPS and ARM, but we ended up using debian instead because there more support and more readily available packages.

I'm pretty sure it could be done pretty easily with puppy, but it was just easier at the time to go with debian.

The only problem we ever had with linux on MIPS was that it didnt handle large amounts of threads very well - not really what it was deisigned for though.
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jamesjeffries2

Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 07:54    Post_subject:  

PS i have puppy running well on this little x86 box
st166_overview.jpg
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2236

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 08:10    Post_subject:  

Yeah, the first trouble is that 'arm' is not 'arm'. There are many flavors of arm architecture and only a few are compatible with each other. I saw, somewhere, that someone had calcualted the number of builds necessary to provide 'blanket' coverage of arm arch and it was in the thousands!
Still, the other problem, which is the same for building Puppy for *any* other architecture is that there is no orderly system for building puppy. Even at its' best -straight from Barry, the sources are spread all over, it includes binaries which were not compiled on any Puppy system, or on some other Puppy system than the one being built; it depends on the use of multiple kernel patches -some of which are pretty diificult to keep synced with current kernel sources.

I have been making a big effort to create a set of build scripts which use my src2pkg tool to create a full distro from scratch. The scripts are arch-agnostic, which means that once all the scripts are done, they can be used to build a system for another arch without having to edit a bunch of scripts. My system even derives the build-order for you. And my 'cheat' method of bootstrapping a new toolchain allows you to start off with nearly any sort of Linux system you are used to running.

Even if you use the woof build system to create a base system for arm, ppc or whatever, you are still going to have the work of compiling all the extras that Puppy uses which is probably at least 200 programs. And many of these will be resistant to building on certain arches. In the end, the only way to be able to maintain any Puppy distro, or create new distros for other arches, is going to require the creation of a real build system -not a 'rob-it-from-wherever-you-find-it' system. If Puppy really is much different from other distros, then its' particular needs at built-time will always be distinct enough to warrant and require that the libs and programs be built *for*, *by* and *on* a Puppy build system.

I am building such a system, but it will not be called puppy. It is called kiss-linux. Puppy needs its' own toolchain -not one grabbed from somewhere else. Just run the command 'gcc -dumpmachine' and see what it says -it says 'i486-t2-linux' or something like that. Until you get a system which returns 'i486-puppy-linux', there is not a chance of creating a real distro at all -even for a single architecture. If the devs have, in the past, gone to the trouble of building a 't2' toolchain, why didn't they go ahead and brand the thing so it would really be 'puppy-linux'. The difference will appear trivial to anyone who knows nothing about these things, but is really an indicator of where you stand vis-a-vis any other distro.
A distro is much more than a collection of files or packages gathered from wherever. The only way for Puppy to really become the thing it proposes to be, is to go all the way and do things the right way -I mean 'right' enough to take full advantage of all that is possible. Puppy is not, and never was, a re-invention of the wheel, nor should it be. At best, it should 'round' some spots which some see as being square. But being different just for the sake of being different means you'll not be able to leverage the efforts of other people -the more different you try to be, the more important it is to build and maintain everything yourself without being dependent on others.
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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 08:19    Post_subject:  

Lobster wrote:


What would you use as the reference device?



i would have thought that ubuntu and debian had already been there so just follow them along for now. still have my eye on Linux Openmoko/Neo FreeRunner mobile phone one step closer would be it capable of running puppy.

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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 08:33    Post_subject:  

amigo wrote:
Yeah, the first trouble is that 'arm' is not 'arm'. There are many flavors of arm architecture and only a few are compatible with each other. I saw, somewhere, that someone had calcualted the number of builds necessary to provide 'blanket' coverage of arm arch and it was in the thousands!
Still, the other problem, which is the same for building Puppy for *any* other architecture is that there is no orderly system for building puppy. Even at its' best -straight from Barry, the sources are spread all over, it includes binaries which were not compiled on any Puppy system, or on some other Puppy system than the one being built; it depends on the use of multiple kernel patches -some of which are pretty diificult to keep synced with current kernel sources.

I have been making a big effort to create a set of build scripts which use my src2pkg tool to create a full distro from scratch. The scripts are arch-agnostic, which means that once all the scripts are done, they can be used to build a system for another arch without having to edit a bunch of scripts. My system even derives the build-order for you. And my 'cheat' method of bootstrapping a new toolchain allows you to start off with nearly any sort of Linux system you are used to running.

Even if you use the woof build system to create a base system for arm, ppc or whatever, you are still going to have the work of compiling all the extras that Puppy uses which is probably at least 200 programs. And many of these will be resistant to building on certain arches. In the end, the only way to be able to maintain any Puppy distro, or create new distros for other arches, is going to require the creation of a real build system -not a 'rob-it-from-wherever-you-find-it' system. If Puppy really is much different from other distros, then its' particular needs at built-time will always be distinct enough to warrant and require that the libs and programs be built *for*, *by* and *on* a Puppy build system.

I am building such a system, but it will not be called puppy. It is called kiss-linux. Puppy needs its' own toolchain -not one grabbed from somewhere else. Just run the command 'gcc -dumpmachine' and see what it says -it says 'i486-t2-linux' or something like that. Until you get a system which returns 'i486-puppy-linux', there is not a chance of creating a real distro at all -even for a single architecture. If the devs have, in the past, gone to the trouble of building a 't2' toolchain, why didn't they go ahead and brand the thing so it would really be 'puppy-linux'. The difference will appear trivial to anyone who knows nothing about these things, but is really an indicator of where you stand vis-a-vis any other distro.
A distro is much more than a collection of files or packages gathered from wherever. The only way for Puppy to really become the thing it proposes to be, is to go all the way and do things the right way -I mean 'right' enough to take full advantage of all that is possible. Puppy is not, and never was, a re-invention of the wheel, nor should it be. At best, it should 'round' some spots which some see as being square. But being different just for the sake of being different means you'll not be able to leverage the efforts of other people -the more different you try to be, the more important it is to build and maintain everything yourself without being dependent on others.

ok amigo, i was hoping you would show up and give us the benefit of your extensive knowledge of arm and point us in the right direction.

Quote:
I am building such a system, but it will not be called puppy. It is called kiss-linux
can you give a pie in the sky time frame of when you expect to be up and going.
Quote:
'blanket' coverage of arm arch and it was in the thousands!
is/are there already thousands of different arm products on the market??
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2236

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 15:36    Post_subject:  

I don't mean to discount the attractiveness of arm targets. I just wanted to point out that it is not so straightforward.
To me the best approach to take is to target certain devices -pick a tablet, PDA, netbook or whatever which is popular or looks like it will become so. Take into account the specific version of arm chip it is using and try to maximize your fire-power by finding several devices which are using the same arch. then, bulding for each device is mostly a matter of changing the kernel drivers included, or even do a 'blanket build' which includes all the modules needed for those devices.
Two popular arm flavors which cover quite a few devices are armv4 and armv4t. armv4 is compatible with 'xscale' devices, which you may have heard of. One of those is also compatible with these tiny computers which just look like a wall plugin power convertor -can't remember the name of the things off-hand...

As for a timetable on my work, I am quite close to finishing the basic system for x86, but the builds are already setup for use on x86_64 as well, and with an eye on a couple of arm targets. I have already used my build system on ppc long ago, so I know that is working too. The pace is 'deliberate', because the real work is mostly done up-front. Once I have the whole set of scripts for a complete base-system, building the other arches becomes pretty straightforward.

I'm not planning to build any LiveCD version of kiss, but others have expressed an inetrest in doing so. Personally, I think that running in RAM is not the way to go for netbooks and other small devices. Boot-times can be reduced by not using such large initrds. The penalty for not running in RAM is longer starup times for applications -the first time they run. But there are sane ways of improving that without having to resort to drastic measures.

I also prefer to not rely on kernel features from third-party patches. Doing so means you are always dependent on the developer keeping the patches up-to-date, having a co-developer who does so, or doing it yourself. I do sometimes use third-party kernel features, but they should not be central to the functionality of your system -notice the problems getting puppy features into later kernels or combining them with other third-party features (OLPC).

In general, resorting to drastic measures or using drastic criterion will only bring you more trouble down the road. KISS linux will be 'compact', but not tiny. Trying to restrict the size to any arbitrary figure simply means that you are going to sacrifice loads of usability with included software, and loss of compatibility with extra software.

My work is advancing on several fronts -particularly with regard to the packaging software which is central to the project. That also is being co-ordinated with a new package format and package database, but that format and database retain compatibility with existing tools such as slapt-get/gslapt. The package database provides information whihc makes development of the system easier -automatically generating compile-order lists and such.

I just last week got all the 300+ packages for X building using src2pkg -that includes all the scim-related stuff for use with japanese, russing, korean, chinese and other asian languages.

And the week before, I worked out a way to split the i18n components of glibc, so that I can provide internationalization without having to install ~300MB of i18n files, as supplied with glibc. But, I had to come up with code to find the needed files for each language and those it depends on, and a bit of fanciness to split that 300MB into 425 packages -whew! But now, it's done and the whole lot can be rebuilt for another architecture, or updated to a newer version by running *a single command*. That is the magic of having everything scripted. It takes more work up front, but once done it saves you loads of time and hair-brained effort later.

So now, back to work as I still have lots to do...
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan 2010, 16:22    Post_subject:  

amigo

You may want to have a re-think about calling it Kiss-linux

googling brings up

Kiss linux server

Kiss Technology, now defunct and pointing to Linksys/Cisco

Klik Kiss

and several others

If you really want that name, may I suggest blocking it out while it IS available? [i.e. buy all domains with that name, and park them Wink ]

http://www.whois.net/whois/kiss-linux.com

http://www.whois.net/whois/kisslinux.com

However, I wish you well with whatever you end up calling it Very Happy

Good Luck

Aitch Smile
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2236

PostPosted: Sun 10 Jan 2010, 04:41    Post_subject:  

Yeah, your right about that. I have some domain renewals coming up anyway, so I probably oughtta reserve some for kiss. Actually, it is still gonna come under the broader project name of amigolinux. kiss is such a generic word -I could have chosen something unique like:whatcha-ma-call-it-linux or neither-here-nor-there-linux or damnsimplelinux LOL
I thought you were gonna say: use another name cause it doesn't sound too simple... making things simple for users means things are more complicated for the devs...
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